Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

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Nevis
 
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Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Nevis » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:42 am #20831

I've been brainstorming ideas on ways to improve the way security handles prisoners in the brig, and keep a consistent way of dealing with all prisoners between officers.

Mainly I've thought of a way to discourage escape attempts from low level prisoners and keep all officers informed on who's in for what and how long. This comes in the form of temporary brig IDs. Instead of our current cell timer system for prisoners, this idea would have a "Processing" console inside the brig lobby, where officers will take the inmate's ID, insert it and enter a crime/time for them and the console will dispense an orange brig ID. These ID's of course have no access, and display the prisoner's name, station job, crime and sentence. These IDs when pinned onto the prisoner's uniform starts their sentence timer automatically as long as they remain in the brig. The prisoner can then be escorted to an appropriate cell and wait out their timer. Once the timer is up, their ID beeps and they are automatically given access to leave the brig. A second console outside the brig in the hallway called the "ID Retrieval" console would allow the prisoner to exchange their old prison ID for their normal station one as long as their time has been served otherwise the machine will refuse the transaction. This model would allow officers to at a glance know who's done what crime and not have to babysit prisoners in the brig for when they need to be let out.

Through this the brig could also be fitted with a larger "General Population" brig cell for the lesser petty crimes that some might commit. This cell would contain a few extra luxuries that the solitary cells do not, such as a newscaster, a vending machine, or a TV to view security cameras.

Feedback for this idea would be great.



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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Wesdo » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:21 pm #20848

Fuck single cells, give us a big holding cell with all the luxuries mentioned above.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby MisterPerson » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:29 pm #20874

I have concerns about security officers stealing inmate ID's and just running off with them. I know sticking them into a machine to auto-redispense will greatly help to alleviate the issue, but it's still something you just know will come up. Either that or officers won't use the system at all because they don't know you can take ID's off. Seriously I can't begin to describe how few people know you can strip people or how to do it. Having said all that, I actually think it could work if the map is right. If you can get inmates to like using it, then they'll show officers how to use it, which would just be amazing. Greytide helping security? Hell must be freezing over...

Make sure the dispensing of ID's only allows an inmate to get their ID back, not someone else's. Would be really annoying for 4 people to get released at the same time and the clown walks off with all their ID's. Or maybe it's funny, I dunno.

A big holding cell has the problem that an inmate walking out the door can let other inmates out as well if security isn't watching. So the exit method has to either be slow enough that an escaping inmate is easily noticed and caught by sec or something completely new that ensures only a sec officer can let an unreleased inmate out early, not another released inmate. WIthout solving this problem, for me, I would continue to brig people in individual cells simply out of safety concerns. If there are none, I would bucklecuff people for their brig time.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Nevis » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:05 pm #20890

MisterPerson wrote:I have concerns about security officers stealing inmate ID's and just running off with them. I know sticking them into a machine to auto-redispense will greatly help to alleviate the issue, but it's still something you just know will come up.

Fair point, but sec officers can, and often do, loot prisoners with the current system as well.

Make sure the dispensing of ID's only allows an inmate to get their ID back, not someone else's. Would be really annoying for 4 people to get released at the same time and the clown walks off with all their ID's. Or maybe it's funny, I dunno.

What I had in my mind was a simple window popup where you insert your ID and hit "Exchange" and it gives you the ID registered to the card you inserted. So I guess the clown could steal un-redeemed brig ID's which wouldn't be too far from stealing real IDs.
A big holding cell has the problem that an inmate walking out the door can let other inmates out as well if security isn't watching.

Yeah I was thinking about this too. I figured taking their ID's away would be incentive enough to stay put, lest they face the wrath of beepsky in the halls. And the big cell would be either for overflow or for petty crimes like stealing the janitor's mop bucket.
Last edited by Nevis on Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Cipher3 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:11 pm #20892

If I escape with my brig ID I'm just gonna sneak back later and take my real ID from the open and available ID vendor.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby paprika » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:30 pm #20899

What the fuck is wrong with officers looting prisoners

An officer with all access and a dual esword is your best friend, anyone who disagrees is a syndicate scum and needs to stop getting caught with ebows on their belt slot.

Don't over complicate the already perfectly simple normal brigging procedure, it'll be cancer to new players and never used.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:33 pm #20900

Security looting captured antags soothes the pain of being in Security.

Also I have to question how exactly would this system prevent Sec from stripping and looting antag items from prisoners? There is no realistic way in game to prevent this from occurring unless OOC policy is implemented.

*EDIT* As much as I like streamlining Sec procedures, I honestly think the current system we have is the best. Its easy, gives a chance for crafty prisoners to hide stuff and/or hope to Nar Si that the searching Officer misses that Holy Bible full of C4.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:10 pm #20910

paprika wrote:What the fuck is wrong with officers looting prisoners

This. Who cares if I take this or put in a locker to be forever lost for everybody?

On the idea, I don't see the point. People spend enough time waiting in cuffs for incompetent officers to process them. In fact, you can spend a lot more time handcuffed behind an officer than in actual brig cell. This will only complicate things as officers would have to take and put on the IDs and all the nonsense tied to it.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:17 am #20953

paprika wrote:What the fuck is wrong with officers looting prisoners



http://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_law

Space Law, Article II - Brig Procedures

Standard Operational Procedures for brigging are as follows:
  • Take the prisoner to the brig and inform the Warden of their crimes so their Security Record may be updated.
  • Take the prisoner to a brig cell, set the time and activate the timer.
  • Enter the cell with the prisoner in tow, open the cell locker and hold the prisoner over it.
  • Empty their pockets and remove their gloves, backpacks, tool belt, gas masks, and any flash resistant equipment such as Sunglasses, Welding Masks/Goggles, Space Helmets, etc.
  • Buckle the prisoner to the bed.
  • Search the items removed and be sure to check the internals box in their backpack.[/color]
  • Confiscate any contraband and/or stolen items, as well as any tools that may be used for future crimes.
    These are to be placed in evidence, not left on the brig floor or your personal use, until they can be returned to their rightful owners.
  • Close the locker and lock it.
  • Flash the prisoner, remove their cuffs, pick up the cuffs then leave the cell.
  • Modify their brig sentence for additional offences or good behavior, if applicable.



If this is violated, report it to the HoS, or the captain. If they loot anything from you, then they are abusing the position of trust afforded to every security officer by directly violating space law, and should be adjudicated appropriately for their crimes.
Last edited by ShizCalev on Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:49 am #20977

Welcome to Space Law, where its a guideline and not enforcable.

Here's the deal, if I catch a player doing bad things, I reserve the right to remove any items I want from them as punishment, usually as a alternative to a brigging sentence.

If you did nothing and a Officer loots your toolbelt then yes you have a point, but crying that Shitcurity stole your tools and Insulated Gloves after you were caught in a restricted area is a waste of time.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Douk » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:53 am #20979

ShizCalev wrote:If this is violated, report it to the HoS, or the captain. If they loot anything from you, then they are abusing the position of trust afforded to every security officer by directly violating space law, and should be adjudicated appropriately for their crimes.

Until you realize that most HoS's will blatantly ignore any such claims so long as the officer either gives a plausible reason or a believable denial. Captains rarely can be bothered to deal with a looter's confiscated insulated gloves either, and I have often seen them hand out harsher punishments for wasting time.
Theoretically, confiscated items SHOULD go into evidence, but in reality, this is often sub-optimal for the security team as a whole. If a pair or two of insulated gloves are confiscated, they do the department zero good. However, equipping an officer or two with them alongside a full toolbelt to put in their bags can make all the difference when brig loses power or otherwise goes haywire. Most HoS's and captains are understanding of that and are not going to step in, especially if they otherwise trust the security force. If the prisoner is never getting the items back anyways, it is seldom practical NOT to use them if they can serve a legitimate purpose.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Reimoo » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:54 am #20987

Douk wrote:Theoretically, confiscated items SHOULD go into evidence, but in reality, this is often sub-optimal for the security team as a whole. If a pair or two of insulated gloves are confiscated, they do the department zero good. However, equipping an officer or two with them alongside a full toolbelt to put in their bags can make all the difference when brig loses power or otherwise goes haywire. Most HoS's and captains are understanding of that and are not going to step in, especially if they otherwise trust the security force. If the prisoner is never getting the items back anyways, it is seldom practical NOT to use them if they can serve a legitimate purpose.


Officers already get a bad rap from crewmembers for having anything belonging to another department on their person. It's in security's best interest to not look like sanctioned thieves despite what might be the best practical option.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:09 am #20988

I still don't understand what's wrong with looting traitors and shitheads.

"Because spess law says so" is not a reason. Space law is a guide more than anything.

Seriously, why the fuck do you care if you go into perma that I will wear your insulated gloves? I mean, stealing from people who are here temporarily is shitty and ahelpable, but most of them are still greytiders who don't deserve to have the equipment anyway.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:11 am #20993

The current system is fine but Jesus Christ you guys hate fun. Unless I catch a murderboning bastard I just disarm traitors and send them back out with tracking + chemical implants. You guys always complain about how hard security is, but in a normal traitor round I find it incredibly easy. Just don't be a shit and don't steal from prisoners. The first thing a prisoner who loses their tools does is find new ones, then break into the brig.

As for traitor weapons, unless the shit hits the fan, security never needs more lethal options for normal work.

Anyway the best security teams are the ones that willingly allow oppurtunity for smart people to escape. All this talk of efficiently winning is just silly.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:12 am #20996

Stickymayhem wrote:Anyway the best security teams are the ones that willingly allow oppurtunity for smart people to escape. All this talk of efficiently winning is just silly.


Hahahaha.

Oh wait your serious.

You mean like those dumb Officers that "slip" convienently? Security should not be this entity that only captures people who are dumb and/or fail.

If you want to be a smart antag and escape Security, actually be smart and take Freedom Implants, construct hidden Rwalls in Perma or don't get caught. Instead of wanting Sec to willingly be idiotic and let you escape.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Nevis » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:21 am #20997

Play2win is the worst gameplay style in SS13.

If security tosses me in permabrig (instead of just murdering me outright in the hall because I had a chameleon projector in my pocket) for traitoring, I don't lose my shit and go braindead. I actually try to chat up with the guards, try and have fun with the situation. Read books, play the arcade or write awful sensationalist newscaster messages to the station. Maybe they will let me ride with them in the shuttle if they aren't complete "CAN'T LET YOU GREENTEXT" nerds.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:25 am #21002

I'm not advocating executing every antag ever captured, I'm just rebutting the idea that Sec should handicap themselves intentionally.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Timrod » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:02 pm #21004

Steelpoint wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Anyway the best security teams are the ones that willingly allow oppurtunity for smart people to escape. All this talk of efficiently winning is just silly.


Hahahaha.

Oh wait your serious.

You mean like those dumb Officers that "slip" convienently? Security should not be this entity that only captures people who are dumb and/or fail.

If you want to be a smart antag and escape Security, actually be smart and take Freedom Implants, construct hidden Rwalls in Perma or don't get caught. Instead of wanting Sec to willingly be idiotic and let you escape.



Steelpoint, some of us aren't CDB-level powertripping timer hunters like you. Security is already enough of a hugbox as-is and yet you keep pressing for more new, hugboxy shit for sec when other departments (atmos, cargo) are woefully under-featured. I have said for a long time that you should be banned from making pull requests because everything you add is either sec hugboxing or broken shit, and I stand by that.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:49 pm #21005

Steelpoint wrote:I'm not advocating executing every antag ever captured, I'm just rebutting the idea that Sec should handicap themselves intentionally.



I'll give you an example from Warwick Stein. It was cult. I was arrested for nicking the armory with telescience and a cult paper was found on me. Luckily it had two sets of prinrd so my cult affiliation was questionable. After spending a while in the brig a cult fake-chaplain comes in with fake holy water. Now the secborg examines the water tank and declares it to be regular water but the HoS is willing to let the clever ruse slide because meta a shit.

Obviously the Borg didn't let it happen, but the HoS makes up for it by letting the chaplain later IC explain that the null rod reveals cultists and I get released for passing the fake test.

This was far and away the best cult round I'd ever had, and I spent 20 minutes in a cell. We lost because security was competent, but not a shit. HoS players like that are what make interacting with security worthwhile. The ones that valid hunt to win are utterly shit and anti fun.

I send traitors out with tracking implaMrs instead of perma/execution (which is fucking the same thing 95% of the time) because I understand that escaping on the shuttle as the station gets shit on is a lot more fun than a shuttle call at the two hour mark because the captain is bored out of his fucking mind.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:08 pm #21006

Honestly Sticky, I would say that was a bad Head of Security. Firstly the alleged Cultist had a Stun Paper on him with his prints on it, had full intention to steal the Armoury which is a perma sentence on itself. When presented with Holy Water and being told its fake, the HoS instead decides to ignore the Cyborgs Advice, ignoring standard protocol and releases the prisoner on the word of the Chaplain.

Let me remind you, this guy had Cult items on him, and he tried to steal the Armoury, and the HoS lets him walk free, in a Cult round.

Was this on Artyom, Sybil or Basil? Cause in my humble experience on Sybil I was never afforded the luxury of being nicer to prisoners during Cult rounds. In fact the last Cult round I was in involved about 15 people rushing into the Brig trying to sacrifice me, I survived but that's another story.

Personally I'm a generally nice Officer. I really only perma people who commited murder or grave sentences (Subersion of AI and stuff). Anyone else I just warn and slap a tracking implant in them.

Timrod wrote:Steelpoint, some of us aren't CDB-level powertripping timer hunters like you. Security is already enough of a hugbox as-is and yet you keep pressing for more new, hugboxy shit for sec when other departments (atmos, cargo) are woefully under-featured. I have said for a long time that you should be banned from making pull requests because everything you add is either sec hugboxing or broken shit, and I stand by that.


Maybe the reason I focus so much on Security content is because I play Security the most?

If we really want to look at my PR history, well here it is. I've done the following on /tg/ code.

- Many, many changelogs. I like to keep people in the know with things changed.
- Changed Security sprites to the one's made by Validsalad.
- Gave spawning Security Officers a stun baton in their backpack (Should place it in their belt slot).
- Added new Cyborg Sprites.
- Gave the RD Tech Storage access.
- Slightly buffed the Laser Rifle to hold 12 rounds.
- Added the Janibelt (Holds most janitorial items)
- Buffed the Janitors Water Tank to hold 500 units of Space Cleaner.
- New Riot Shield sprite
- Overhaul of the Brigs design, addition of Execution Chamber/Insanity Ward/Flashers/Armoury Contents
- General map bug fixing.
- Addition of the AI Satellite and moving the Gravity Generator to the middle of the station.


That's it.

When it comes to my Security play style, I'll let other people be the judge of that.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Rose-chan » Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:15 pm #21007

Steelpoint wrote:Here's the deal, if I catch a player doing bad things, I reserve the right to remove any items I want from them as punishment, usually as a alternative to a brigging sentence.


No. I've been arrested by security, brigged, and interrogated for ten minutes for having a black toolbox that I could prove I got from the derelict, and they used that as a reason to confiscate it, my mesons, my shoes, and my jetback. They wanted to take my damn mining hardsuit too, with the excuse that I could just get another one; but I somehow managed to get them to let me keep that. This line of thinking that security has the right to keep anything they please from people they've detained can go fuck right off. Remove the items that are dangerous for them to have or were key in the commission of the crime , and let them keep their gear unless you can prove they shouldn't have them. Items that belong to a certain department should be returned to that department, and syndicate items should be locked up unless the HoS or Captain gives security permission to keep them. Security doesn't exist to abuse their position to steal items from the crew.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:24 pm #21018

Steelpoint I find that the more lenient you are with people the less shit you'll get from them, and the more time you can give each prisoner. Conversely, if you treat people harshly, they'll get pissed and reoffend, meaning you have less time to be good to each prisoner which means you end up with a downward spiral into greytide. Try being cooperative and nice with people for a change. Be lenient to traitors and they'll respect and even help you for it. Frequently I end up identifying every traitor in a round because being nice to one makes them reveal two others.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:28 pm #21020

If you've read what I said you'll know I am lenient towards traitors.

Its that I am ill afforded the opportunity, or even a reason, to be lenient towards cultists and revs.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:34 pm #21022

Steelpoint wrote:If you've read what I said you'll know I am lenient towards traitors.

Its that I am ill afforded the opportunity, or even a reason, to be lenient towards cultists and revs.


While I agree with revs, being nice to cultists has plenty of benefits too, and can often reveal several others if you are just careful.

Rev is a clusterfuck that demands violence so I agree security doesn't have a chance to be decent there, but cult is a much slower gamemode.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby paprika » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:46 am #21124

Space law is a suggestion and it's not bannable to not follow it with things that literally do not ruin other people's rounds. Using noslips as sec to catch a traitor should not wind the sec player up with a jobban because he's 'not following space law' he's just toeing the line of powergame if anything. You bet your ass I'm going to load up on syndicate gear when people are taking out officers with shitty tasers left and right. Taking prisoners' yellow gloves when they've been permabrigged or caught hacking into somewhere is a big ol' fuck you to them and I need more of that in my life. And one more thing, Shiz, that big red bold section you quoted says 'until they can be returned to their rightful owners.' Guess what? Traitormcsyndie is no longer the rightful owner of these shiny noslips once he's in the permabrig, security is. Assistantmctide is no longer the rightful owner of yellow gloves he likely stole from somewhere to hack into the captain's office once they've been taken from him. Deal w/ it nerd.

Besides, you're faulting security for not passing up the opportunity to stock up on some free gear when LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE DOES THAT TOO. "Dead bodies in genetics? Cloning pod is broken? Oh well, sec officer isn't using it and I might as well take his taser and armor for self defense!" -Every greyshirt ever

Stickymayhem wrote:and can often reveal several others if you are just careful.

Cultists and revs would rather go catatonic in permabrig than reveal anyone else, and using them as b8 is really unlikely unless you find a head rev. Cultists always, ALWAYS get broken out.


That 'play to win' mentality people hate in sec is not spawned by people wanting to play the opposing force against antags, it's usually spawned out of pure necessity to most situations. Face it, there's less creative and interesting antags than there are security officers that don't play to win. Antags play to win practically every fucking day, but people excuse it because 'lol antags can do wut dey want' mentality which is the REAL PROBLEM. Mouth-breathing assistant players that make stun prods every round also contribute to it, but less so because assistants have fucking nothing else to do but vigilante most of the time so I'm less hard on them because I do it too when I'm an assistant.

Seriously? If you're going to want security to just lie down and take it up the ass from 360NOSCOPE EBOW ESWORD WUBWUBWUB faggots you can go to bay. Because bay doesn't have 360noscope ebow esword wubwubwub faggots, so they don't have shitty sec officers. Nicecurity exists there in HUGE amounts because they don't have to be incredibly robust in order to play security effectively, they just have to roleplay like any other job. Antags that play to win create sec as this opposing force and turn the game into team deathmatch with some objectives a lot of the time, NOT security itself. By looking at how other servers conduct security you can really see how security is on this server instead of blinding yourself with your own ignorance.

Spoiler:
HOLY SHIT, it's almost like using logic to find out what the real source of the problem is can lead to something more constructive than generalizing all sec by saying they're shitters. MAYBE they tryhard because antags tryhard.


But I'm not going to say that some sec officers are just dicks so feel free to kick them in the shins and call an admin instead of throwing IEDs at the brig because that just makes more of a problem for the good sec officers who are much less likely to be nice to you when you generalize sec officers by the lowest common denominator. There's a point where officers take it 'too far' but unfortunately that's kind of up to the judgement of admins and there's no concrete policy on it... :roll:

Edit: I can't wait until people try to cry about "they're going to take our license to grief antag status away!" because that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm just suggesting that there's literally nothing wrong with security as it is, but if you're going to go down the route of 'sec is mean 2 me' at least address the real problem.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:42 am #21149

paprika wrote:Space law is a suggestion and it's not bannable to not follow it with things that literally do not ruin other people's rounds. Using noslips as sec to catch a traitor should not wind the sec player up with a jobban because he's 'not following space law' he's just toeing the line of powergame if anything. You bet your ass I'm going to load up on syndicate gear when people are taking out officers with shitty tasers left and right. Taking prisoners' yellow gloves when they've been permabrigged or caught hacking into somewhere is a big ol' fuck you to them and I need more of that in my life. And one more thing, Shiz, that big red bold section you quoted says 'until they can be returned to their rightful owners.' Guess what? Traitormcsyndie is no longer the rightful owner of these shiny noslips once he's in the permabrig, security is. Assistantmctide is no longer the rightful owner of yellow gloves he likely stole from somewhere to hack into the captain's office once they've been taken from him. Deal w/ it nerd.

Besides, you're faulting security for not passing up the opportunity to stock up on some free gear when LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE DOES THAT TOO. "Dead bodies in genetics? Cloning pod is broken? Oh well, sec officer isn't using it and I might as well take his taser and armor for self defense!" -Every greyshirt ever

Stickymayhem wrote:and can often reveal several others if you are just careful.

Cultists and revs would rather go catatonic in permabrig than reveal anyone else, and using them as b8 is really unlikely unless you find a head rev. Cultists always, ALWAYS get broken out.


That 'play to win' mentality people hate in sec is not spawned by people wanting to play the opposing force against antags, it's usually spawned out of pure necessity to most situations. Face it, there's less creative and interesting antags than there are security officers that don't play to win. Antags play to win practically every fucking day, but people excuse it because 'lol antags can do wut dey want' mentality which is the REAL PROBLEM. Mouth-breathing assistant players that make stun prods every round also contribute to it, but less so because assistants have fucking nothing else to do but vigilante most of the time so I'm less hard on them because I do it too when I'm an assistant.

Seriously? If you're going to want security to just lie down and take it up the ass from 360NOSCOPE EBOW ESWORD WUBWUBWUB faggots you can go to bay. Because bay doesn't have 360noscope ebow esword wubwubwub faggots, so they don't have shitty sec officers. Nicecurity exists there in HUGE amounts because they don't have to be incredibly robust in order to play security effectively, they just have to roleplay like any other job. Antags that play to win create sec as this opposing force and turn the game into team deathmatch with some objectives a lot of the time, NOT security itself. By looking at how other servers conduct security you can really see how security is on this server instead of blinding yourself with your own ignorance.

Spoiler:
HOLY SHIT, it's almost like using logic to find out what the real source of the problem is can lead to something more constructive than generalizing all sec by saying they're shitters. MAYBE they tryhard because antags tryhard.


But I'm not going to say that some sec officers are just dicks so feel free to kick them in the shins and call an admin instead of throwing IEDs at the brig because that just makes more of a problem for the good sec officers who are much less likely to be nice to you when you generalize sec officers by the lowest common denominator. There's a point where officers take it 'too far' but unfortunately that's kind of up to the judgement of admins and there's no concrete policy on it... :roll:

Edit: I can't wait until people try to cry about "they're going to take our license to grief antag status away!" because that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm just suggesting that there's literally nothing wrong with security as it is, but if you're going to go down the route of 'sec is mean 2 me' at least address the real problem.


I didn't say shit about adminhelping it. I said report it to the HoS/warden or captain (aka handle that shit IC.) It is not bannable, no. It is just a dick thing to steal someone's ID for no reason, and that any -good- HoS/warden will help resolve it

Taking prisoners' yellow gloves when they've been permabrigged or caught hacking into somewhere is a big ol' fuck you to them and I need more of that in my life.


That's mentioned in space law too. You shouldn't put the gloves on though, unless there is an immediate need to (ie: shocked doors everywhere) anyway.

And one more thing, Shiz, that big red bold section you quoted says 'until they can be returned to their rightful owners.' Guess what? Traitormcsyndie is no longer the rightful owner of these shiny noslips once he's in the permabrig, security is.


Confiscate any contraband and/or stolen items, as well as any tools that may be used for future crimes.
These are to be placed in evidence, not left on the brig floor or your personal use, until they can be returned to their rightful owners.

???????? It's not saying to return traitor's weapons. It's saying to return STOLEN ITEMS. An assistant shouldn't have robotic's medical tools. Nor should a janitor have the chaplain's flask of holy water.

Taking items from a prisoner who you've permabrigging is a different beast from officers stealing ID's from people in regular cells with regular sentences. That was the point of this conversation, was it not?

Holy shit everybody, please stop going off on tangents about issues that are completely beyond what we are talking about.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Nevis » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:46 am #21168

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:32 am #21173

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:38 am #21178

ShizCalev wrote:That's mentioned in space law too.

Who cares
ShizCalev wrote:You shouldn't put the gloves on though, unless there is an immediate need to (ie: shocked doors everywhere) anyway.

Why not

Sec officers should spawn with fucking gloves anyway

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:43 am #21180

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Sec officers should spawn with fucking gloves anyway


I tried to do that in a PR but it was denied since someone disliked it.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:26 am #21184

Figures. All security should have "security gloves" so that detective doesn't have to go check officer's prints because that officer opened a door on a crime scene.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Crushtoe » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:48 pm #21213

paprika wrote:Space law is a suggestion and it's not bannable to not follow it with things that literally do not ruin other people's rounds. Using noslips as sec to catch a traitor should not wind the sec player up with a jobban because he's 'not following space law' he's just toeing the line of powergame if anything. You bet your ass I'm going to load up on syndicate gear when people are taking out officers with shitty tasers left and right. Taking prisoners' yellow gloves when they've been permabrigged or caught hacking into somewhere is a big ol' fuck you to them and I need more of that in my life. And one more thing, Shiz, that big red bold section you quoted says 'until they can be returned to their rightful owners.' Guess what? Traitormcsyndie is no longer the rightful owner of these shiny noslips once he's in the permabrig, security is. Assistantmctide is no longer the rightful owner of yellow gloves he likely stole from somewhere to hack into the captain's office once they've been taken from him. Deal w/ it nerd.

Besides, you're faulting security for not passing up the opportunity to stock up on some free gear when LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE DOES THAT TOO. "Dead bodies in genetics? Cloning pod is broken? Oh well, sec officer isn't using it and I might as well take his taser and armor for self defense!" -Every greyshirt ever

Stickymayhem wrote:and can often reveal several others if you are just careful.

Cultists and revs would rather go catatonic in permabrig than reveal anyone else, and using them as b8 is really unlikely unless you find a head rev. Cultists always, ALWAYS get broken out.


That 'play to win' mentality people hate in sec is not spawned by people wanting to play the opposing force against antags, it's usually spawned out of pure necessity to most situations. Face it, there's less creative and interesting antags than there are security officers that don't play to win. Antags play to win practically every fucking day, but people excuse it because 'lol antags can do wut dey want' mentality which is the REAL PROBLEM. Mouth-breathing assistant players that make stun prods every round also contribute to it, but less so because assistants have fucking nothing else to do but vigilante most of the time so I'm less hard on them because I do it too when I'm an assistant.

Seriously? If you're going to want security to just lie down and take it up the ass from 360NOSCOPE EBOW ESWORD WUBWUBWUB faggots you can go to bay. Because bay doesn't have 360noscope ebow esword wubwubwub faggots, so they don't have shitty sec officers. Nicecurity exists there in HUGE amounts because they don't have to be incredibly robust in order to play security effectively, they just have to roleplay like any other job. Antags that play to win create sec as this opposing force and turn the game into team deathmatch with some objectives a lot of the time, NOT security itself. By looking at how other servers conduct security you can really see how security is on this server instead of blinding yourself with your own ignorance.

Spoiler:
HOLY SHIT, it's almost like using logic to find out what the real source of the problem is can lead to something more constructive than generalizing all sec by saying they're shitters. MAYBE they tryhard because antags tryhard.


But I'm not going to say that some sec officers are just dicks so feel free to kick them in the shins and call an admin instead of throwing IEDs at the brig because that just makes more of a problem for the good sec officers who are much less likely to be nice to you when you generalize sec officers by the lowest common denominator. There's a point where officers take it 'too far' but unfortunately that's kind of up to the judgement of admins and there's no concrete policy on it... :roll:

Edit: I can't wait until people try to cry about "they're going to take our license to grief antag status away!" because that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm just suggesting that there's literally nothing wrong with security as it is, but if you're going to go down the route of 'sec is mean 2 me' at least address the real problem.

I'll say it now Pap, your a fucking cancer. The rightful owner isnt LUL SEC, but whoever they stole it from. I've seen security take a traitor's stolen Captains Spare ID, and instead of returning it to the captain, giving themselves all-access and looting the armory. It's fucking shit behavior, just like the idealogy that Security can take anything they want. For fucks sake, I've had multiple security teams in the past week steal my engineering RIG suit because they said I CAN GET ANOTHER ONE, when only 2 exist and they have their own RIGs. You are the cancer that makes people hate Security for their thievery, shitting, and the very reason the term shitcurity exists, and I wouldn't mind it if you jumped off the Aft Port Solars.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:24 pm #21224

The reason, at least in my opinion, we're rigorously defending Security's right to confiscate and use confiscated items is simply because you can't easily place a blanket ruling on what Security can and cannot take from a prisoner. Space Law is a ok guideline but it is not the be all and end all of all the wonderful situations Security will find itself in. Here's the deal, if your caught committing a severe enough crime, everything you own with the exception of your clothing is free game for Security to confiscate if they feel its needed.

I may take your ID, your PDA, your RIG suit, your tools and that Stun Prod.

Spoiler:
But what if you had just killed a whole bunch of people? Or maybe you just broke into Genetics and have been swearing and fighting Sec the whole time? I may only have taken the Stun Prod and sent you on your way.


If you want nice good Security, be nice and respectful to them, hopefully they will reciprocate. Sadly in the best of times Security is oft under a lot of pressure and really just wants to process you and get you out of the way.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Crushtoe » Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:31 pm #21228

Some players would see this as the option to steal someones rare department gear, like RIG suits, because 'you can get another.' That shit shouldn't be kept but returned to the department.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby paprika » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:52 pm #21246

Okay back on topic there is literally no reason to overcomplicate the retard proof brigging system and no Shiz the conversation was about how giving temporary prisoners completely new IDs would lead to current prisoners getting their IDs looted which literally never happens otherwise. Unless it's someone with brig access nobody gets their ID looted but if temporary prisoners had to have completely new IDs (as was suggested in the OP) it would probably lead to their real IDs getting misplaced.

Space law says rightful owners can't have their shit taken but it also says if people used said items or weapons to commit crimes you can take them all you want and if you want to use them they're up for grabs like anything else. If the HoP is a tator and gets caught that more often than not means all of sec is going to have all access. :^)

Crushtoe wrote:For fucks sake, I've had multiple security teams in the past week steal my engineering RIG suit because they said I CAN GET ANOTHER ONE, when only 2 exist and they have their own RIGs. You are the cancer that makes people hate Security for their thievery, shitting, and the very reason the term shitcurity exists, and I wouldn't mind it if you jumped off the Aft Port Solars.

Ahelp it? That's a sec player not doing their job right, not something you should be bitter ICly about. Shiz is suggesting that you should deal with this shit 'icly' and if you icly try to get your shit back from sec who has an entire arsenal at their disposal you're going to get rekt or the people you report it to are going to ignore you since they have more important shit on their plate. I suggest you ahelp or make a ban request instead of being a shitter to sec because a sec player was a shitter. That's how it works so we can keep security clean of this filth.

Aft port solars are like the south west solars and not even remotely near brig so I think you just randomly named some nautical terms to make your edgy insult seem cooler which it doesn't you literal sperg. Generalizing a department is just as cancerous.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:07 pm #21257

paprika wrote:Okay back on topic there is literally no reason to overcomplicate the retard proof brigging system and no Shiz the conversation was about how giving temporary prisoners completely new IDs would lead to current prisoners getting their IDs looted which literally never happens otherwise. Unless it's someone with brig access nobody gets their ID looted but if temporary prisoners had to have completely new IDs (as was suggested in the OP) it would probably lead to their real IDs getting misplaced.


I -was- talking about that. Somehow we got onto the topic of items being looted and perma prisoners though?

paprika wrote:Space law says rightful owners can't have their shit taken but it also says if people used said items or weapons to commit crimes you can take them all you want and if you want to use them they're up for grabs like anything else. If the HoP is a tator and gets caught that more often than not means all of sec is going to have all access. :^)


Please show me where it says that. Because it doesn't. Also, giving all of security all-access FNR other than lulpowergame is a really shitty thing to do. Just like handing out yellow gloves and tossing out full toolbelts and medkits to officers is just as retarded. Their role is security, not engineering. There is literally no reason why a security officer would need such things to perform his duties under normal conditions.

paprika wrote:
Crushtoe wrote:For fucks sake, I've had multiple security teams in the past week steal my engineering RIG suit because they said I CAN GET ANOTHER ONE, when only 2 exist and they have their own RIGs. You are the cancer that makes people hate Security for their thievery, shitting, and the very reason the term shitcurity exists, and I wouldn't mind it if you jumped off the Aft Port Solars.

Ahelp it? That's a sec player not doing their job right, not something you should be bitter ICly about. Shiz is suggesting that you should deal with this shit 'icly' and if you icly try to get your shit back from sec who has an entire arsenal at their disposal you're going to get rekt or the people you report it to are going to ignore you since they have more important shit on their plate. I suggest you ahelp or make a ban request instead of being a shitter to sec because a sec player was a shitter. That's how it works so we can keep security clean of this filth.


Feel free to ahelp that one I guess, but please-please-please, don't get into a habit of ahelping security for every single situation that occurs, because there -is- a chain of command to deal with issues such as these ICly. I personally try to look into such claims as Warden/HoS/Captain. Maybe I'm just the weird person out because I do give a shit about security's image.
Last edited by ShizCalev on Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby paprika » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:09 pm #21258

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do you even read.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:15 pm #21261

These are to be placed in evidence, not left on the brig floor or your personal use, until they can be returned to their rightful owners.

Do you?

We have two types of evidence lockers in security.

There's regular evidence lockers, and then there's a contraband evidence locker which is in the armory. Guess what that holds.
Last edited by ShizCalev on Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby paprika » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:16 pm #21262

Contraband items don't have a rightful owner, thus they belong to sec. As steelpoint said, it's one of the few perks of playing security.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:17 pm #21263

>Not putting contraband in the locker designated for contraband.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:30 pm #21267

ShizCalev wrote:>Not putting contraband in the locker designated for contraband.

Why would you put it in a locker?

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:51 pm #21270

Because it's contraband?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraband

The word contraband, reported in English since 1529, from Medieval French contrebande "a smuggling," denotes any item which, relating to its nature, is illegal to be possessed or sold.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:56 pm #21271

Do you even play security?

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:02 pm #21273

Yes. As I said, I usually play as warden or HoS.
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Nevis » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:15 pm #21274

I find that security not putting confiscated contraband in the contraband locker and just using it for themselves is on the same level of a captain taking all of the High risk items (laser gun, reactive TP armor, hypo, etc.), and the entire armory, and putting them in a locked locker and hiding them in the vault. It's purely metashitting on anyone who might of tried to steal them back from the locker.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:42 pm #21286

ShizCalev wrote:Yes. As I said, I usually play as warden or HoS.

Then you must know that putting contraband into a locker serves no purpose because you will not be able to use it for justice. More likely it will get stolen by somebody raiding armory.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby paprika » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:16 pm #21295

Shiz is bad at sec and if you've seen him play you'd probably know that by now
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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby Douk » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:09 pm #21309

EDIT: I retract such unfounded assertions of competency. I may not agree on certain personal policies, but Shiz is effective enough even so.
Last edited by Douk on Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brig and Prison management improvements and ideas

Postby ShizCalev » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:03 am #21332

According to my logs Paprka, we haven't been in the same station together since December 19th, 2013.


You as well, Douk. The only interaction you've had with me as a member of security is from.. prior to December 2013 as well.
Infact Douk, I have logs here of you arresting me FNR on December 9th, 2013, for calling out a ling that stung me in a maintenance tunnel, and in the round just prior to that, you arrested me for using an egun that an officer dropped to kill a locker that a wizard animated.

Want to talk about being bad at sec?


Just played a round with you as sec. You're p.chill now I guess.
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