Icepacks - General Incompetence

Jzoid · Post by **Jzoid** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:01 pm #337068

Byond account and character name: Jzoid - Mercy Tara
Admin: IcePacks
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Bagil between 18:16 to 22:25 UK Time
Detailed summary:
So, I'm playing a round, during a round is two main events that happen for me, I'll detail them here as they're both crucial.
The first event is, security are chasing and tasing a ligger. One officer tases me, so I get back up and stand there, shaking it off as an accident. He tases me once more so I throw a spear at him and tell the HoS to arrest me. Simple enough.

The second event, the most important part, is where I died.
I am running around the station, free after the HoS not caring I threw a spear at his man. I go to arrivals and see someone south of it so I go south. There are three people. One running around, the other attempting to taze him and the third -- A security officer -- cuffed in a chair.
Assumingly, the one running around kidnapped the officer, I have no idea.
So, the one with the taser, his name is "Zafaroth McSkooks" tases me and the random runs off. I get up, pick up my spear and I don't do anything hostile.
So, either one of the two happens. He tases me once more and starts to stab me with his own spear or he stabs me without tasing me again. I can not remember, but it is trivial either way.
So, obviously I retaliate, I end up winning against him but the officer ends up harm batoning me to crit where I /whisper to end my life

Please, note, I will be posting a log of our whole chat below this to save time and clearance.

I report the situation to IcePacks and this is where my report comes into play.
I don't get an answer for twenty minutes up to when the round ends which is understandable due to it being a shit-hole of a round. At which point, he asks me to explain what happened, so I do.
He then says "Admin PM from-IcePacks: you threw a spear at him after getting tased" so firstly, straight away, he's looking at the wrong situation. He is looking at the first event I stated despite the second one being the one I reported. He tells me "Admin PM from-IcePacks: i need you not to try and put a spin on this or i'm just going to reboot" and then "Admin PM from-IcePacks: you literally got shot once, threw a spear about half a minute later" to which I tell him he's looking at the wrong point in the logs. He ignores what I'm telling him and he continues to say "Admin PM from-IcePacks: you hit him with the spear and he tased you again" followed by "Admin PM from-IcePacks: you hit him with the spear and he tased you again". So even then, I know now he's not looking anywhere apart from the start -- Which is where I'm not reporting. I tell him he's looking at a wrong point and I did do that, but that's not what I'm reporting. What I'm reporting was a different situation with a different person. He tells me he "Admin PM from-IcePacks: i wan tthe entire story" which I assume he's accusing me of a liar because he can not be bothered to listen. To which I just tell him that is the entire story, I can tell him the whole round for me if he likes, in which he responds "Admin PM from-IcePacks: not just the bit where this other idiot drew conclusions from a bucklecuffed security officer" I remind him, once more that he's looking at the wrong place and he just simply says "Admin PM from-IcePacks: this is an ic issue" and restarts the round, still talking about the first situation and not the situation I report.

So onto the next round.
He makes a hint to our chat in OOC saying "IcePacks: please note that something worth ahelping is something that you don't need to put a spin on to be actionable" to which I ahelp what do you mean. He then tells me I've been lying to him with "Admin PM from-IcePacks: my point here is that i wasted half an hour of my life scrolling through logs while literally everyone involved was lying to me " and I tell him I wasn't lying and I'm met with "Admin PM from-IcePacks: i literally double-checked the lgos" which is a blatant lie. I tell him I was saying the truth, he attacked first, and I ask that he is checking the logs to do with ZAFAROTH and he says "Admin PM from-IcePacks: he tased you and you tossed a spear at him after lecturing sec about tasing random people" I remind him once more he's looking at the wrong situation and then he says "Admin PM from-IcePacks: it's well and good if you want to teach other players hard lessons just don't go screaming to the admins when it blows up" I remind him once more that he's looking at the wrong situation and I'm met with "Admin PM from-IcePacks: yes, and i'm telling you that killing you is fairly justifiable if you're in a fight with someone" I tell him I'm reporting someone for starting a fight for no reason and then he says "Admin PM from-IcePacks: but you started it you mong" I say in full caps WHEN THO and he boinks me with "Admin PM from-IcePacks: when you literally started spearchucking at security" still, not looking at the right situation. I ask him why is he being insufferable and I say he is once more, looking at the wrong situation. I pull the age old "so am I allowed to fight and have it an a IC issue" and he's responds with "Admin PM from-IcePacks: you uh, started a fight with someone for a reason and it was an ic issue" again, for probably the twentieth time I tell him he is looking at the wrong situation, and not the one I want to report abnd I get "Admin PM from-IcePacks: i told you i'm done debating this" before telling him not to be a snake and stuff, that's posted in the full logs below. He boinks "Admin PM from-IcePacks: if you want to find another person to dig through that garbage again go for it but i doubt you'll get anything different" I tell him give me the logs and I'll dig through it. Which I have done in under a minute. I go onto say he's looking at the wrong situation, he's looking at two different situations with twenty minute gaps I tell him if he can get me logs, I'll dig through and he responds "Admin PM from-IcePacks: got one right here" I ask what do you mean "Admin PM from-IcePacks: 12:02:25: PM From IcePacks/(IcePacks): i'm done debating it" and "Admin PM from-IcePacks: bother someone else" I say that's the thing, before trying to type out my next sentence and he kicks me from the server.

PM to-Admins: Hello, I would like to report Zafaroth who legit attacked and started to kill me with a spear for no reason
Admin PM from-IcePacks: yes, i can see the salt from here
PM to-Admins: Yes, please deal with him
Admin PM from-IcePacks: i'll look into it
PM to-Admins: sorry if I seem intrusive, I just hate not knowing the results of a report (be it any game). Is anything being done with Zafaroth?
PM to-Admins: So was there a result?
Admin PM from-IcePacks: i'm still looking into it
Admin PM from-IcePacks: can you explain to me what exactly happened here so i can run your story against everyone else's
PM to-Admins: So, I was running around as I had no job due to being an assistant, I see someone at the bottom of arrivals so I just go, I get tased, I get up and say something like "bro what the fuck" I DON'T DO ANYTHING BUT STAND STILL AND PICK UP MY SPEAR and then he starts to spear me to death, so ultimately, I eventually win the spear fight, a security officer that was cuffed and witnessed the whole thing uncuffs himself, beats me into heavy crit where I then just /whisper
Admin PM from-IcePacks: you threw a spear at him after getting tased
Admin PM from-IcePacks: i need you not to try and put a spin on this or i'm just going to reboot
PM to-Admins: I got tased twice
PM to-Admins: I got tased once, stood up, picked up my spear got tased again at which point zafa shown hostility so I retaliated
Admin PM from-IcePacks: you literally got shot once, threw a spear about half a minute later
PM to-Admins: Wrong point
Admin PM from-IcePacks: you hit him with the spear and he tased you again
Admin PM from-IcePacks: this is the start of the logs
PM to-Admins: You're looking at the wrong point in the logs -- I done that but to a different perso n and not zara
PM to-Admins: It's further down believe, go to the end of my logs
Admin PM from-IcePacks: i wan tthe entire story
PM to-Admins: That is the ENTIRE story, unless you want my whole story of the round
Admin PM from-IcePacks: not just the bit where this other idiot drew conclusions from a bucklecuffed security officer
PM to-Admins: Because if I'm correct, you're looking at the wrong point in the logs
PM to-Admins: is it easier if I tell you my whole round?
PM to-Admins: To help give an idea of whwere you should be looking
Admin PM from-IcePacks: this is an ic issue
PM to-Admins: not really, I got RDm'd
OOC: IcePacks: friendly reminder
OOC: IcePacks: please note that something worth ahelping is something that you don't need to put a spin on to be actionable
PM to-Admins: what do you mean by that
Admin PM from-IcePacks: my point here is that i wasted half an hour of my life scrolling through logs while literally everyone involved was lying to me
PM to-Admins: I wasn't lying tho.
Admin PM from-IcePacks: i literally double-checked the lgos
PM to-Admins: I was telling you the honest truth, he attacked me first. you looked at the wrong place in the logs
PM to-Admins: So what you're telling me is the logs showed me attacking ZAFAROTH first?
Admin PM from-IcePacks: he tased you and you tossed a spear at him after lecturing sec about tasing random people
PM to-Admins: Yes, and what I am telling you is taht's the wrong place in the logs that you're looking at
Admin PM from-IcePacks: it's well and good if you want to teach other players hard lessons just don't go screaming to the admins when it blows up
PM to-Admins: IcePacks, you're looking at TWO different situations
Admin PM from-IcePacks: yes, and i'm telling you that killing you is fairly justifiable if you're in a fight with someone
PM to-Admins: But I'm reporting him for starting the fight for no reason
Admin PM from-IcePacks: but you started it you mong
PM to-Admins: WHEN THO
Admin PM from-IcePacks: i'm done debating it
Admin PM from-IcePacks: when you literally started spearchucking at security
PM to-Admins: why are you being insufferable
PM to-Admins: YOU ARE LOOKING AT TWO DIFFERENT SITUATIONS OMG
PM to-Admins: so am I allowed to start a fight with someone randomly and leave it an IC issue
Admin PM from-IcePacks: you uh, started a fight with someone for a reason and it was an ic issue
PM to-Admins: You are looking at the wrong situation that I want to report, once more
Admin PM from-IcePacks: i told you i'm done debating this
PM to-Admins: At least don't be a little snake and tell people who can be fucked to do their job not to do it either. It's disgusting
Admin PM from-IcePacks: if you want to find another person to dig through that garbage again go for it but i doubt you'll get anything
PM to-Admins: If you can give me the logs of my actions I will happily outline the actual situation
PM to-Admins: The situation that I was reporting and not another one
PM to-Admins: because there is a large twenty minute gap between the situation we are talking about and the situation I am reporting
PM to-Admins: So, like I said, if you can get me the logs of my actions I will out line it for you and send it to you on discord
You can no longer reply to this ticket, please open another one by using the Adminhelp verb if need be.
Admin PM from-IcePacks: got one right here
PM to-Admins: What do you mean?
Admin PM from-IcePacks: 12:02:25: PM From IcePacks/(IcePacks): i'm done debating it
Admin PM from-IcePacks: bother someone else
PM to-Admins: that's the thing
You have been kicked from the server by icepacks.

My combat logs from this round (separated by event)

Spoiler:

Attack logs from - https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... attack.txt

As seen in those logs, I got initiated on for no reason, IcePacks refused to read this part of the logs thus leaving the report to waste.

IcePacks through out this whole report showed incompetence by refusing to look at the situation in which I was trying to report, only to redirect it to another situation even when he's constantly reminded that he's looking at the wrong part. He then goes onto show hostility and results in a kick.

feem · Post by **feem** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:39 pm #337073

Round 76104, basil, https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... und-76104/

Reading through these logs, and ignoring the several instances of borderline OOC in IC (referencing how angry 'the gods' get when you 'mess with security', saying 'W o w', etc), it looks like this is what happened:

1) You got randotased. That sucks. It seems like they were either aiming for someone else (because there was some stray fire from them) or that they thought, as another sec explained, that you were someone else.
2) You then asked if you could throw a spear at the officer that tased you.
3) Their boss said no.
4) You did it anyway and told them you were gonna go do it regardless of whether or not they gave you permission.
5) For some reason they let you go.
6) Later, you start getting wailed on by a third party.
7) You get the best of them and start beating them.
8) Security officer that you attacked walks up and sees you wrecking a dude. What do you think his response is going to be after fighting cult all round?

This is an unfortunate IC circumstance. As the 'IC Issue' help text says when we reject an ahelp:

Losing is part of the game!
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

From the perspective of the officer, you're someone who had already attacked him earlier in the round with a lethal, embeddable object, because they (as a security officer) tased you, but were about to release you. You told them that you would have attacked them regardless of whether or not you were given permission to do so (and you in fact were not), and later, that officer saw you wailing on someone. It is a natural and logical assumption to assume that you were up to no good the whole round, and to disabuse you of that, as they did.

You then succumbed.

While it would have been nice if this had gone another way, from my perspective this is not actionable and is an IC issue.

NOTE: I am not a headmin, and I am not making any rulings. I'm stating the events from the logs and how I would have interpreted them as an administrator in the same position.

Jzoid · Post by **Jzoid** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:45 pm #337074

I just want to clarify, I'm not so much as mad about the officer whaling on me. Hell, I didn't even know it was the same one, and I don't think he did either simply because when I asked why he killed me despite him seeing my being attacked first he responded with something alongs the line of "Cause that guy was helping me". I was reporting the Third Person Party.
The initial report was based on Zafaroth, who begun to attack me for no reason. I was reporting Zafaroth, the CMO for attacking me for no reason (He was none-antag). Not the officer, but Zafaroth.

Later, however, this issue devolved onto basic incompetence from IcePacks which is what I am now reporting.

Post by **oranges** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:33 am #337185

You have been kicked from the server by icepacks.

This is something icepacks has a problem with and he should be talked to about kicks

Post by **Cobby** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:31 am #337263

If he handled it and you keep bringing it up after he told you it was handled then the kick is ok as per rule 6.

Jzoid · Post by **Jzoid** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:01 pm #337275

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:If he handled it and you keep bringing it up after he told you it was handled then the kick is ok as per rule 6.

He didn't handle what I was reporting. He REFUSED to look at what I was reporting.

Post by **Cobby** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:17 pm #337282

Jzoid wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:If he handled it and you keep bringing it up after he told you it was handled then the kick is ok as per rule 6.
He didn't handle what I was reporting. He REFUSED to look at what I was reporting.

Choosing not to handle it OOCly is still handling it, just not in a way that you deem appropriate given the situation hence why we're here.

feem · Post by **feem** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:21 pm #337284

oranges wrote:
You have been kicked from the server by icepacks.

This is something icepacks has a problem with and he should be talked to about kicks

I agree that Icepacks kicks people more than most other admins do.

However, it's less than a ban or a note, arguably either on par with or less than a mute (because mutes have to be manually removed), and is an attempt to adjust behavior.

Any potentially inappropriate general discipline aside, I suspect part of the reason people are more bothered by kicks than they are by notes or bans is that kicks are not used regularly by many admins, and that because they're lesser, they are handed out with less fanfare or consideration.

Post by **Armhulen** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:31 pm #337320

I don't see anything wrong with packs' actions here

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:10 pm #337459

i literally asked everyone for their side of the story, weighed them all against logs for half an hour before telling you it was an ic issue, after which you bitched my metaphorical ear off despite me telling you to stop

this may be just because i'm hangry at work but i can upgrade it from a kick (mute was not working) to a rule 6 ban if you're unhappy with the kick

Post by **oranges** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:32 pm #337542

ps don't forget to report admin links not working to cyberboss, who is the cause of all of them breaking

iamgoofball · Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:54 pm

Heads up, kicking someone can sometimes force you to watch an ad to reconnect, which forces you to wait to reconnect which can result in looting in the mean time or possible death.

BYOND does not vet ads at all, and they can potentially be malicious.

iamgoofball · Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:55 pm

IcePacks wrote:but i can upgrade it from a kick (mute was not working) to a rule 6 ban if you're unhappy with the kick

Is there not a rule against threatening to ban people for complaining? I think a headmin needs to talk to Pax about this, this is unacceptable and outright corrupt.

Post by **Dax Dupont** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:28 am #337607

iamgoofball wrote:Heads up, kicking someone can sometimes force you to watch an ad to reconnect, which forces you to wait to reconnect which can result in looting in the mean time or possible death.

BYOND does not vet ads at all, and they can potentially be malicious.

This is why I have flash disabled for IE.

iamgoofball wrote:
IcePacks wrote:but i can upgrade it from a kick (mute was not working) to a rule 6 ban if you're unhappy with the kick
Is there not a rule against threatening to ban people for complaining? I think a headmin needs to talk to Pax about this, this is unacceptable and outright corrupt.

There has to be admin policy for this right? Even though the admin complaint is kinda silly, telling people they can get banned for filing an admin complaint is dumb.

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:06 am #337650

iamgoofball wrote:
IcePacks wrote:but i can upgrade it from a kick (mute was not working) to a rule 6 ban if you're unhappy with the kick
Is there not a rule against threatening to ban people for complaining? I think a headmin needs to talk to Pax about this, this is unacceptable and outright corrupt.

No he's making the point that they're upset about being punished [lightly] for breaking the rules, not that they're actually going to do it .

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:44 am #338184

oranges wrote:ps don't forget to report admin links not working to cyberboss, who is the cause of all of them breaking

The meme continues to ring true.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:51 am #338185

feem wrote:
oranges wrote:
You have been kicked from the server by icepacks.

This is something icepacks has a problem with and he should be talked to about kicks
I agree that Icepacks kicks people more than most other admins do.

However, it's less than a ban or a note, arguably either on par with or less than a mute (because mutes have to be manually removed), and is an attempt to adjust behavior.

Any potentially inappropriate general discipline aside, I suspect part of the reason people are more bothered by kicks than they are by notes or bans is that kicks are not used regularly by many admins, and that because they're lesser, they are handed out with less fanfare or consideration.

Kicks have traditionally, in other non ss13 realms, been a sort of "fuck off, cool off, then come back" we don't typically use them because we don't typically need them. Admin interaction here usually amounts to either word resolution or band. We typically don't need the middle option. If he was ing obnoxious and mute was broken there's nothing to see here.

Doctor Pork · Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:45 am

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
IcePacks wrote:but i can upgrade it from a kick (mute was not working) to a rule 6 ban if you're unhappy with the kick
Is there not a rule against threatening to ban people for complaining? I think a headmin needs to talk to Pax about this, this is unacceptable and outright corrupt.
No he's making the point that they're upset about being punished [lightly] for breaking the rules, not that they're actually going to do it .

"DONT LIKE X PUNISHMENT? WELL I GUESS ILL HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE MUCH HARDER Y FOR TAKING IT TO THE FORUMS."

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:52 am #338449

Doctor Pork wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
IcePacks wrote:but i can upgrade it from a kick (mute was not working) to a rule 6 ban if you're unhappy with the kick
Is there not a rule against threatening to ban people for complaining? I think a headmin needs to talk to Pax about this, this is unacceptable and outright corrupt.
No he's making the point that they're upset about being punished [lightly] for breaking the rules, not that they're actually going to do it .

"DONT LIKE X PUNISHMENT? WELL I GUESS ILL HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE MUCH HARDER Y FOR TAKING IT TO THE FORUMS."

> keep breaking rules [6 to be exact]
> what you would normally get is a mute (wasn't working)
> gives kick instead
> wtf shitty admin that's not a fair punishment
> Would you preferred I was harsher then (since that's the only other option available as he's already mentioned)?
> WOW RED FLAG WTF DEADMIN POSTEHASTE!

I know we hyperventilate at the mere thought of someone getting in trouble for appealing/complaining or whatever but that wasn't his point and I feel like everyone knows this but chooses to take it that way anyways.

Doctor Pork · Post by **Doctor Pork** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:59 am #338464

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
Doctor Pork wrote:
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
IcePacks wrote:but i can upgrade it from a kick (mute was not working) to a rule 6 ban if you're unhappy with the kick
Is there not a rule against threatening to ban people for complaining? I think a headmin needs to talk to Pax about this, this is unacceptable and outright corrupt.
No he's making the point that they're upset about being punished [lightly] for breaking the rules, not that they're actually going to do it .

"DONT LIKE X PUNISHMENT? WELL I GUESS ILL HAVE TO GIVE YOU THE MUCH HARDER Y FOR TAKING IT TO THE FORUMS."

> keep breaking rules [6 to be exact]
> what you would normally get is a mute (wasn't working)
> gives kick instead
> wtf shitty admin that's not a fair punishment
> Would you preferred I was harsher then (since that's the only other option available as he's already mentioned)?
> WOW RED FLAG WTF DEADMIN POSTEHASTE!

I know we hyperventilate at the mere thought of someone getting in trouble for appealing/complaining or whatever but that wasn't his point and I feel like everyone knows this but chooses to take it that way anyways.

its an unfortunate choice of words

Jzoid · Post by **Jzoid** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:07 pm #338689

Firstly, I don't believe I was muted.
Secondly, yet again, the point is being missed. idgaf that I was kicked, albeit it seems like a sad "haha I have last words" attempt.
Ice packs refused to look at the situation, attempting to redirect it to a different situation and then started getting hostile and throwing out slurs after I was remaining peaceful and just asking for him to look at the proper case I was reporting.

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:03 pm #338738

i questioned everyone involved and read through all of your logs for the entirety of the round

i put more effort into a complete fool's errand than you did in behaving like a dumbshit and getting yourself killed

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:22 am #338812

Armhulen wrote:I don't see anything wrong with packs' actions here

should have closed it here but oh well. Packs didn't do anything wrong in this case.

/tg/Station 13

Icepacks - General Incompetence

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