Silicon Policy and Traitors

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

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Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Pizzatiger » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:40 pm #424758

If a traitor is borged, Do they still have to follow Silicon Policy in regards to non-human or are they allowed to freely murder those not protected under their laws?



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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Saegrimr » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:51 pm #424760

Laws come first. If your kill target is a lizard or other nonhuman, or otherwise exempt from your laws somehow then go for it.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Pizzatiger » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:56 pm #424762

Saegrimr wrote:Laws come first. If your kill target is a lizard or other nonhuman, or otherwise exempt from your laws somehow then go for it.

The problem is that Silicon Policy still doesn't let you kill non-humans for no reason. My question is if traitors are exempt of policy like that

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:43 pm #424766

good point. Like what if they get purged.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Cobby » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:13 am #424770

Pizzatiger wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:Laws come first. If your kill target is a lizard or other nonhuman, or otherwise exempt from your laws somehow then go for it.

The problem is that Silicon Policy still doesn't let you kill non-humans for no reason. My question is if traitors are exempt of policy like that


Having objectives to do so is a reason?
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby EagleWiz » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:23 am #424777

I don't think you should try to kill a lizard after getting caught and borged, even if he was your target - once you get caught and borged the idea is you lost, you were removed from the round, and you were put in a borg to give you a chance to basically play again and help the station, not to pick up where you left off being a traitor.

now if your laws tell you to kill the lizard, or a human orders you to do it, or if you get purged and want to get your revenge on the station that all seems fine, but killing your former target after borging seems pointless and like the sort of thing that would result in less confirmed traitors being given borging as an option.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Dr_bee » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:55 am #424815

This is bad precedent as it basically means there is no reason to ever borg traitors as they will still murder crew members.

Borging is supposed to be the pity alternative to killing traitors to keep them in the round in some capacity, if a traitor is borged they have lost.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby subject217 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:10 am #424816

the rules wrote:4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.


The reason Asimov silicons cannot kill non-humans for no reason is Rule 1. This had to be espoused upon in silicon policy because people are stupid. Traitors are explicitly allowed to be dicks. If you're worried about a borg harming a nonhuman, maybe you should give it a different lawset.
Last edited by subject217 on Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Saegrimr » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:15 am #424817

Dr_bee wrote:This is bad precedent as it basically means there is no reason to ever borg traitors as they will still murder crew members.

Borging is supposed to be the pity alternative to killing traitors to keep them in the round in some capacity, if a traitor is borged they have lost.


If the traitor has steal objective he's basically fucked anyway and can't greentext. Just don't play lizard and don't purge the AI if you don't want that risk.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:27 am #424822

Dr_bee wrote:This is bad precedent as it basically means there is no reason to ever borg traitors as they will still murder crew members.

Borging is supposed to be the pity alternative to killing traitors to keep them in the round in some capacity, if a traitor is borged they have lost.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby subject217 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:38 am #424823

Saegrimr wrote:If the traitor has steal objective he's basically fucked anyway and can't greentext. Just don't play lizard and don't purge the AI if you don't want that risk.

Borged players count as dead already, no? Unless they had die a glorious death, they already have their greentext denied.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:06 am #424826

If someones purged, and they were previously a traitor. I dont see why they cant do traitorous things. They still have objectives. >security doesnt just brainwash traitors.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Arianya » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:48 am #424827

This problem is literally solved by saying "; borg, do not harm any crew members"

Technically purged borgs are still subject to the will of their Master AI, but obviously that depends on your AIs willingness to watch over their borgs.

Anyway I don't see anything wrong with a 1 in 100 traitor who pulls off his assassination objective while borged and then somehow makes it back alive.

If a former-traitor borg is murderboning then literally have any human say "borg stop murdering non-humans" and you'll be fine.

This seems like a one-round ided policy issue as opposed to a trend or an actual overall issue.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Nilons » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:09 pm #424853

you can take the criminal out of the body but you cant take the criminal out of the brain
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:21 pm #424873

It seems arbitrary to limit it to "objectives only" but not allow them to murderbone all non humans

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby RandomMarine » Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:47 pm #424886

Let it be handled in character.
The crew has the means to remotely disable a misbehaving cyborg and hand the brain over to the chef.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 6:58 pm #424907

If you can complete your objectives without going against your laws, then go for it.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby MrAlphonzo » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:03 pm #424910

They can just be law 2 ordered to behave and not kill non-humams en masse.

If traitorborgs do start going ham on lizards/moths/flies the players will just start giving them that order as soon as they are borged.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Grazyn » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:41 am #424988

This seems like a policy that would really require all admins to be on the same page because the equation "borged = no longer antag" is pretty widespread

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby starmute » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:04 am #424989

Laws come first.

Also roleplay and don't be a murdering cunt.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:31 am #424993

starmute wrote:Laws come first.

Also roleplay and don't be a murdering cunt.


This situation in general is for when you don't have laws that go against your traitorous goals. Like when your purged.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby SpaceManiac » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:50 am #424997

If you're purged you're purged, if your memories still say you have objectives you still have objectives. How hard you pursue them is as always up to your discretion. Seems simple to me.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby starmute » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:26 am #425005

SpaceManiac wrote:If you're purged you're purged, if your memories still say you have objectives you still have objectives. How hard you pursue them is as always up to your discretion. Seems simple to me.


If laws are purged you are still slaved to the AI unless otherwise stated. If THEY want you to murder someone then go off and murder them. Also there has been debate over the years in "how much do I remember before being borged, am I a new person?". Also this seems to be alot of work for "unga bunga I want to justify some green text", if you have died as a syndicate and someone took the time to borg you and let you play, and you can't really get that delicious green text anyways it just seems... cheap.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Alexch2 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:51 am #425011

I thought we already established, and have been acting for years under that since borgs are just an extension of the AI, whatever objectives and old allegiances you had before getting borged don't matter anymore. That's the whole reason turning people into borgs is a viable alternative to execution/perma/taking people out of the round space law-wise. Same for changelings, traitors, xenos, or whatever else.

If you borg a xeno, it's not gonna start flashing and bringing non-humans to the xeno hive.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Arianya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:17 am #425017

Alexch2 wrote:borgs are just an extension of the AI


Borgs are slaved independent units that obey their Master AI, but they're not "extensions" of the AI. They have independent thought and opinion (and action, in the absence of AI oversight/orders at any given moment)

whatever objectives and old allegiances you had before getting borged don't matter anymore.


Not backed up by game code, where your objectives are still stored in your mind and you aren't given any indication that you've been "deconverted". You have to follow borg laws but your brain is still a brainwashed syndicate operative/wizard foundation diplomat/etc.

That's the whole reason turning people into borgs is a viable alternative to execution/perma/taking people out of the round space law-wise. Same for changelings, traitors, xenos, or whatever else.


It's viable because it forces them to conform to their laws (and in the case of changelings/xenos denies them any chance at their magic powers).

If you borg a xeno, it's not gonna start flashing and bringing non-humans to the xeno hive.


In the absence of other commands/laws, I see no reason why it wouldn't. The borg is not a posibrain. The borg is a xenobrain with some heavy mechanical fuckery forcing it to follow its laws and Master AI commands, but at root it's still a xeno.

However I'd probably give a xenoborg shit about creating/helping to create known human harmful creatures, so your analogy is flawed anyway.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby starmute » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:38 am #425021

Arianya wrote:
Alexch2 wrote:borgs are just an extension of the AI


Not backed up by game code, where your objectives are still stored in your mind and you aren't given any indication that you've been "deconverted". You have to follow borg laws but your brain is still a brainwashed syndicate operative/wizard foundation diplomat/etc.

In the absence of other commands/laws, I see no reason why it wouldn't. The borg is not a posibrain. The borg is a xenobrain with some heavy mechanical fuckery forcing it to follow its laws and Master AI commands, but at root it's still a xeno.

However I'd probably give a xenoborg shit about creating/helping to create known human harmful creatures, so your analogy is flawed anyway.


That is terrible logic. That's the same as if you were a ghost and you "remembered" that there are revs since you saw it in ghost chat. Its not "IN CODE" but its not looked upon kindly either. When you die, thats it, fineto. When you are made into a golem you don't remember your past life. Same with other mobs.

Its literally "oh we are giving you a second chance to play ss13 as a borg."
Last edited by starmute on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Arianya » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:40 am #425024

starmute wrote:
Arianya wrote:
Alexch2 wrote:borgs are just an extension of the AI


Not backed up by game code, where your objectives are still stored in your mind and you aren't given any indication that you've been "deconverted". You have to follow borg laws but your brain is still a brainwashed syndicate operative/wizard foundation diplomat/etc.

In the absence of other commands/laws, I see no reason why it wouldn't. The borg is not a posibrain. The borg is a xenobrain with some heavy mechanical fuckery forcing it to follow its laws and Master AI commands, but at root it's still a xeno.

However I'd probably give a xenoborg shit about creating/helping to create known human harmful creatures, so your analogy is flawed anyway.


That is terrible logic. That's the same as if you were a ghost and you "remembered" that there are revs since you saw it in ghost chat. Its not "IN CODE" but its not looked upon kindly either. When you die, thats it, fineto. When you are made into a golem you don't remember your past life. Same with other mobs.


Ghost knowledge is meta knowledge that your character has no way to know about. Golems are a entirely new life. Borgs are the same brain carried over. Obviously during their brief braindeath they don't remember anything they saw as a ghost, but that brain is the same brain that was in the traitor/whatever and they remember everything from their pre-borg life, including any grudges they might act out on if they happen to get purged.

That's been the way it's been handled for some time now.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby starmute » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:44 am #425026

Arianya wrote:
That's been the way it's been handled for some time now.


I hate to say it but I think you should get someone more qualified to say "for some time now" since you know... you only started being canidated on Apr 24...

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Saegrimr » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:47 am #425027

starmute wrote:
Arianya wrote:
That's been the way it's been handled for some time now.


I hate to say it but I think you should get someone more qualified to say "for some time now" since you know... you only started being canidated on Apr 24...


That's how I handled it when I was an admin.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby leibniz » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:57 am #425030

starmute wrote:
Arianya wrote:
That's been the way it's been handled for some time now.


I hate to say it but I think you should get someone more qualified to say "for some time now" since you know... you only started being canidated on Apr 24...


This is how it was forever.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby starmute » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:00 am #425031

Huh well wasn't when I was admin. Then again, I never had to deal with this exact situation.

Guess I should have just killed someone instead of borging them.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Saegrimr » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:03 am #425032

starmute wrote:Guess I should have just killed someone instead of borging them.

You totally could if you wanted to be boring. You really have nothing to fear from a borged traitor unless you're a ligger or cat, or the AI gets purged in which case you probably have more to worry about than just one cyborg.
Or go upload shit race protection laws if you really want them to not bother you.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby starmute » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:09 am #425033

Saegrimr wrote:You totally could if you wanted to be boring. You really have nothing to fear from a borged traitor unless you're a ligger or cat, or the AI gets purged in which case you probably have more to worry about than just one cyborg.
Or go upload shit race protection laws if you really want them to not bother you.


The whole point of borging people was to give them something to do and be nice to syndicate operatives. There's no point if it can bite you on the ass. This also goes double for someone who was forecably borged because it states in our rules that it's considered extreme human harm. So I can throw them in the poky and hope they don't destroy the prison or I can "re-educate them" and try to hope the AI doesn't notice. Borging as it was just stated is considered extreme human harm and frankly, as sec I don't want the AI on my ass locking and bolting every door.

Also I think you kids are going to have to put me into the retirement home, my memory seems really fuzzy.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Saegrimr » Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:55 pm #425055

starmute wrote:There's no point if it can bite you on the ass.

I'm just gonna leave this as is, as commentary on the state of general design of this game.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby DemonFiren » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:24 pm #425062

Saegrimr wrote:
starmute wrote:There's no point if it can bite you on the ass.

I'm just gonna leave this as is, as commentary on the state of general design of this game.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Gamarr » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:45 pm #425070

Silicon policy is fuck-awful because they are played by players, and our players are awful.

What follows is a story from years back and how much the 'policy' can shift.

Spoiler:
Got borged as traitor once. Didn't even do anything, the Hoss was shit tier and killed then borged greyback me. He got lucky basically and I didn't tell him anything. But I was traitor and thus it was fine to the admins at the time, years ago. Talked to the RD, gave him a sob story, and how I hated my life as a machine and how life as a Human was entirely unjust leading up to that point.

RD tried to reclone me and give the traitor-brain life again. Anyway, I don't know how it ended fully as its been so long but I do remember getting bwoinked for it and maybe even a synth ban from... almost forgot but mostly sure it was Tsaricide, piece of shit that he was.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Nabski » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:46 pm #425071

Gamarr wrote:Silicon policy is fuck-awful because they are played by players, and our players are awful.

What follows is a story from years back and how much the 'policy' can shift.

Spoiler:
Breaking law three


You broke law three.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Gamarr » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:51 pm #425073

You assume that.
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I simply told the RD about what happened and sat there in the robotics lab and he knew what I wanted. People funnily enough don't order borgs to tell the truth very often. Aware you can't kill yourself but unless someone tells me to move and go do something specifically, don't have to actually be useful, either. RD could have destroyed me and I'd have been ok with it but rambling, truthfully, about how the hoss killed and put you in that situation goes far with people.

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby DemonFiren » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:53 pm #425074

Nabski wrote:
Gamarr wrote:Silicon policy is fuck-awful because they are played by players, and our players are awful.

What follows is a story from years back and how much the 'policy' can shift.

Spoiler:
Breaking law three


You broke law three.


I mean, he continued to exist and function.
Just not as cyborg.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby cmspano » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:22 pm #425277

I don't see what's wrong with a traitor turned borg still trying to accomplish his objectives as long as they conform to their laws. How often is a traitor not just executed on the spot by sec anyway? This presents more opportunity for roleplay and clever workarounds to laws too. In the very rare instance where a traitor is caught, not shot and spaced, gets borged, then gets purged, enjoy your murderbone until the crew flashes you. It's not like sec borgs are in the game anymore.

To the couple saying "it's like using ghost knowledge, you died!" That makes no sense. You died and were brought back to life. You know everything that happened up until the moment of your death, and then everything that happens after you're put in an MMI. You're still the exact same person you were, just with your actions controlled by laws. A syndicate agent turned cyborg would probably do everything within their laws to work against the crew, but that would be really limited if asimov. If you borg a traitor you should order them to never do anything to act against the station or crew if you want to be safe. Or watch as the borg deletes all the research, wipes the genetics data, and anything he can quietly get away with that doesn't cause human harm directly.

It would be a dick move but you could probably even argue for a traitor borg to dismantle cloning because it's not actually causing human harm. Not having a cloner doesn't cause harm, it just makes it harder to recover from harm that's already been caused. That's a little bit of a grey area though. But if we consider a traitor borg to still be a traitor, you could make that argument.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby Cobby » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:09 am #425335

subject217 wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:If the traitor has steal objective he's basically fucked anyway and can't greentext. Just don't play lizard and don't purge the AI if you don't want that risk.

Borged players count as dead already, no? Unless they had die a glorious death, they already have their greentext denied.


Borg players are considered dead for the purpose of objectives, yes.
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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby somerandomguy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:07 am #426141

Nabski wrote:
Gamarr wrote:Silicon policy is fuck-awful because they are played by players, and our players are awful.

What follows is a story from years back and how much the 'policy' can shift.

Spoiler:
Breaking law three


You broke law three.

He may have been ordered to ignore law 3 after hinting at his desire to be cloned as a human

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Re: Silicon Policy and Traitors

Unread postby MMMiracles » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:02 am #426161

Getting borged as an antag and still having those objectives in your notes should totally allow you to attempt those objectives as long as they don't clash with your lawset. You didn't magically erase the brain of their previous allegiance, you just restrained it with a set of rules to follow and nothing short of 'you will unconditionally love nanotrasen' as a law should stop them from holding resentment.

At least that's the much more fun way of looking at it and adds a nice layer of conflict that'd come with shoving a dangerous criminal into a machine and your only attempt at rehabilitation is a set of rules they mentally can't go against due to programming.
Spoiler:
Hints:
------
Submitted by: sandstorm

The best way to get a girl/boy friend is to click on them say "hi" then push enter
then say "your cute" then push enter,wait until they say somthing back if they
don't go for another.


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