ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

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ZanderDowdall
 
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:25 pm

ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby ZanderDowdall » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:01 pm #431337

Title/subject:Ghost Role Ban


Post Content:
Byond account and character name:ZanderDowdall Micheal Man
Banning admin:Imsxz
Ban type (What are you banned from?):Ghost Roles
Ban reason and length:Killed CE for repeatedly recalling after being killed by Ce, Counted as metagrudge
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 19:47Ish GMT
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story:I was killed by CE while trying to stop CE from recalling (There were loads of shadow people and there were a few murderboners), CE killed me, I came back as golem and teleported to bridge. CMO was there with ce, CMO called shuttle, CE deconned the consoles, built a console in engineering, I went there and killed CE
Why you think you should be unbanned:I didn't kill CE because I was angry with him, he killed me, that was fine. No problems there. I killed him because he recalled with no reason to, repeatedly. There was no grudge. As a rule, I do not grudge



Hathkar
 
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Hathkar » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:41 pm #431343

CE here. I recalled because wanting to re-roll for antag and being bored isn't a legitimate reason to call the shuttle. I wasn't hearing any reports of murderboners from command comms or the CMO. You attacked me with your napalm backpack sprayer first, and I met your lethal force with lethal force.

I then moved the captain's comm console to engineering, and after you became a golem, you got your old ID, old backpack flamer rig, and came to engineering to try your hand at murder again.

And as a golem, you shouldn't care either way if the shuttle is called or not.

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Gratian
 
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Gratian » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:18 pm #431349

CMO here. That station was fucked. No lights anywhere, all access all around, and the shadowpeople were shadowtiding hard. Apparently there were also murderboners about being called out several times over the general radio, but that would only increase the need for the shuttle call. If I had known it was you recalling I would have also stopped you. And golems are literally free to do as they please, so it would be IC for him to see the station's inhabitants being forced to live in a fucked station and want to help them. Unless they didn't see you recalling as a golem and still acted as if you were recalling I can't see this being metagrudging.

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Arianya
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Arianya » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:43 pm #431357

The issue at stake here isn't the recalling.

The issue is that the player went into a new life, as a lavaland golem (I presume, from the reference of teleporting to the bridge), went to the bridge and based on a single questionable act decided to get his murder on the CE.

As a new-born lavaland golem, you didn't know that the shuttle had been recalled multiple times, nor even particularly having a stake in the shuttle being called, being a chill lavaland golemite who just wants to "go do whatever".

The fact that you (allegedly) surreptitiously recovered your old ID and weapon is just another nail in the coffin.

If you are concerned about a player's behaviour being Rule 1 infringing (which repeated recalls can be), then always feel free to ahelp. It's much better then abusing a ghost role as you did, and Imsxz's punishment fits the crime here.

Also, the full ban reason:
Banned from pAI, posibrain, drone, deathsquad, lavaland - Ghost role ban - Very strong case of metagrudging against a person for killing them in a past life.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

imsxz
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby imsxz » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:58 pm #431363

Hello. The reason this ban was placed is due to the very strong evidence of a metagrudge taking place.

During the round, as a human, you attacked the chief engineer for repeatedly recalling the shuttle, and ended up getting killed in return. You did this with your napalm fire sprayer thing.

Later on, as a golem, you return and acquire your same ID card and fire sprayer thing. This alone is already suspicious behavior regarding metagrudging.

Afterwards, you began following the chief engineer around, and in your very own words in the adminhelp, you were following her for little to no reason.

At one point or another, the shuttle was called again. While following around the chief engineer for whatever reason, you saw her recall it. You decide to kill her over this, with your same chemical sprayer that you tried to kill her with earlier on, and succeeded this time. This alone is questionable even without looking at your past life, as it's a bit much for killing someone that recalled the shuttle once (once to your own knowledge, as a newly spawned golem, that is). Given that we need to take your previous life into account, you knew that the chief engineer had recalled in the past, and I concluded that you used your knowledge from past lives of the CE recalling the shuttle many times to decide to kill her as a golem.

At very best, you killed the chief engineer of recalling a single shuttle, which isn't acceptable in its own right. Examining the nature of your actions as a golem (retrieving your old gear from before you became a golem, following around the CE for self admittedly little reason), it can be assumed that you were metagrudging in this situation.

I stand by this ban unless it can be proven otherwise that this isn't a case of metagrudging.

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oranges
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby oranges » Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:17 pm #431381

dude what, this is a terrible ban, if the CE wants to chain recall the shuttle then they should expect to get killed, how are you people even fucking admins at this point? jesus christ.
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Krusvik
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Krusvik » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:45 am #431409

Hathkar wrote:... I recalled because wanting to re-roll for antag and being bored isn't a legitimate reason to call the shuttle...


Hathkar wrote:I then moved the captain's comm console to engineering...


We are so focused on the golem that we aren't addressing these two things that concern me. How did you become in position to know this and act upon it, and why did you forcibly move the comm console to your engineering bay with the intention of controlling who could call and recall the shuttle?

imsxz
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby imsxz » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:02 am #431420

oranges wrote:dude what, this is a terrible ban, if the CE wants to chain recall the shuttle then they should expect to get killed, how are you people even fucking admins at this point? jesus christ.


Let me put it in a very simple order of events for you.
1. CE recalls the shuttle a bunch because the situation is honestly not that bad.
2. Zanderdowdall tries to kill the CE because he doesn't want her to recall, dies in the process.
3. Zanderdowdall respawns as a golem, LOOTS HIS SAME OLD CORPSE, follows around the CE for SELF ADMITTEDLY little to no reason until they recall a single time.
4. After Zanderdowdall witnesses the CE recall a single time (after stalking them FNR), kills CE with the very same weapon (fire spray) that they attempted to kill her with previously.

This isn't about CE getting killed for recalling the shuttle, this is about blatant abuse of knowledge from past lives.

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Arianya
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Arianya » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:05 am #431422

oranges wrote:dude what, this is a terrible ban, if the CE wants to chain recall the shuttle then they should expect to get killed, how are you people even fucking admins at this point? jesus christ.


Two wrongs don't make a right.

The fact that the CE is a chain-recalling dick doesn't excuse breaking other rules, and arguably several of them at once at that.

This isn't a server ban, it's a ghost role ban. For breaking the ghost role rules.

Whether the CE was or was not valid is honestly kinda secondary to this whole thing.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

imsxz
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby imsxz » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:06 am #431423

Krusvik wrote:
Hathkar wrote:... I recalled because wanting to re-roll for antag and being bored isn't a legitimate reason to call the shuttle...


Hathkar wrote:I then moved the captain's comm console to engineering...


We are so focused on the golem that we aren't addressing these two things that concern me. How did you become in position to know this and act upon it, and why did you forcibly move the comm console to your engineering bay with the intention of controlling who could call and recall the shuttle?


This isn't really relevant at all to the appeal. We're so focused on the golem because it's their ban appeal. The ban has nothing to do with whether or not the CE deserved it, it's about the blatant abuse of knowledge from previous lives as explained multiple times above.

Also, this ban only applies to ghost roles, it's not a server ban.

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Krusvik
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Krusvik » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:46 am #431436

I suppose I am wary because the CE's actions would invoke a player to feel spurned and to take matters into their own hands. Recalling the shuttle on a station where the antagonists are actively killing players and any round start structure is lost to chaos begs the question, in my mind, where does proper escalation begin? The CE met lethal force with lethal force, but were the actions of endangering the crew further and also locking down the shuttle console create a situation where retaliation with lethal force is not valid? If so we have failed in taking action at the right time and the actions of ZanderDowdall are a situation spiraling out of control.

I cannot deny the accurate identification of information used in OOC fashion, for that there should be appropriate punishment. However, with my school of thought I would have opted for a less permanent ban.

These are my final thoughts, I trust the judgement of you and the headmins.

ZanderDowdall
 
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby ZanderDowdall » Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:04 pm #431508

Hey, Me here.

The reason I wanted this taken back is because I wasn't metagrudging. That was all.
To clear a few things up:
1.) I didn't loot my corpse. I walked into a room and they were on the floor, so I picked them up
2.) The fact that I died to the CE and came back a golem wasn't meta grudge. When I died there were no golem shells, it was a few minutes after that someone made them
3.)I didn't mean to teleport to the bridge. I just walked into the teleporter
4.)I was OOC annoyed at my message box being spammed with recalls, so I assumed that everyone else was too. That is why I was trying to stop the CE
5.) There were a lotta callouts on murderboners and shadowtiders and what-not. The CE was just being a dick head for the sake of it.

If the ban doesn't get revoked entirely and I can get it changed to a month ban I'd be happy. The perm thing is what bothers me

Hathkar
 
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Hathkar » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:08 pm #431535

Since people seem so focused on my actions instead of the possible metagruding, I'll try and explain them better.

As CE, I was busy for most of the round fiddling with the SM engine. There's some weird things happening like most of the crew turning into shadowpeople and smashing the lights so they don't die. That's fine, I just pick up some NVGs and continue my work and fix some things in medbay. From what I remember hearing on comms, some people are happy to remain on the station and chill as shadowpeople. I do not recall ever seeing any mention of murderboning go on. So when I hear the shuttle being called because "law two", despite only maybe 5% of the station being unusable, my initial thoughts are that people are simply bored of not being antags and want to reroll. My IC justification is that the station is in fine-shape, despite the shadowshrooms. Shuttle calls for little/no reason are a pet peeve of mine anyway.

As for the metaknowledge side of things, I was combing the logs a bit.
[2018-08-05 18:27:07.310] GAME: 18:27:07.310] GAME: ZanderDowdall/(Michael Man) became a free golem

[2018-08-05 18:27:07.317] ACCESS: 18:27:07.317] ACCESS: Mob Login: zanderdowdall/(a free golem) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human
[2018-08-05 18:27:13.892] SAY: 18:27:13.892] SAY: Plastitanium Orthoclase/zanderdowdall : There is someone recalling the shuttle (197,188,5)

Note that you said this before any recalls happened when you were a golem.
[2018-08-05 18:27:38.125] GAME: 18:27:38.125] GAME: Plastitanium Orthoclase (zanderdowdall/(Plastitanium Orthoclase)) has teleported from Lavaland Wastes (191, 191, 5) to Bridge (107, 137, 2)

And then you used your backpack flamer thing a few times after stumbling across your old corpse.

There's probably more in the logs.

So to summarize: Stated the shuttle was being recalled upon spawning in as a free golem, despite not being alive as a golem to see the recalls. Teleported to bridge, looted your old corpse, and called the shuttle. Then you stalked me and killed me.
[2018-08-05 18:32:26.783] SAY: 18:32:26.783] SAY: Plastitanium Orthoclase (as Michael Man)/zanderdowdall : MY MIX BURNT THROUGH HER SUIT (158,157,2)
[2018-08-05 18:28:43.061] GAME: 18:28:43.061] GAME: zanderdowdall/(Plastitanium Orthoclase) has called the shuttle.

[2018-08-05 18:28:43.062] GAME: 18:28:43.062] GAME: Shuttle call reason: Time to go guys


As for the megagruding/metaknowledge

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Krusvik
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Krusvik » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:10 pm #431550

I dissected your actions only out of fair representation to ZanderDowdall.

Whew man, those logs though, if I didn't already trust the judgement of the two admins here to identify the events of metaknowledge, those logs are pretty evident.

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Cobby
 
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Cobby » Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:09 am #431635

Logs require links please.

tgstation.com/parsed-logs
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CitrusGender
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby CitrusGender » Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:22 am #431653

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... 6/game.txt


Aye, it is true. This ban is acceptable and this is metagruding (especially after seeing those logs.) You spawned and immediately sprouted metaknowledge and acted upon it. It cannot get any more telling than that. This is also probably borderline lying to the admins in the appeal but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since the punishment was a bit harsh (though in line with what I would do, given your circumstances.)

ZanderDowdall wrote:1.) I didn't loot my corpse. I walked into a room and they were on the floor, so I picked them up

I really doubt this, but it doesn't matter.

This appeal is declined, another headmin may post.
Play as Ian Smith, part time CMO and part time dictator of Rhodesia
why the heck did they make this guy admin, complain here!
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Cobby
 
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Re: ZanderDowdall's Ban Appeal

Unread postby Cobby » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:31 am #432916

Guess they don't want to
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