[imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Moderators: In-Game Admin, Game Server Operators, In-Game Head Admins

CrazyClown12
 
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:24 am
Byond Username: CrazyClown12

[imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby CrazyClown12 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:59 pm #437666

Byond account and character name: CrazyClown12
Admin: Imsxz
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred:
ROUND ID HERE: 93488
Detailed summary:

I was in cargo minding my own business during a cult round. Lucie Bellerose and Sheness Hollow come in, kill me and some others. I perform no acts of violence at any point, Sheness and Lucie are both acting as sec (one is the captain, one is dressed as sec) and as such sec rules should apply, or escalation policy should apply. They did not act within the rules of either.


First, logs. You are all welcome to ctrl+f your way throught the logs to find me performing any acts of violence or cultism. You can't, I didn't. To save time, I'm just going to post all relevant logs here. Note that I was lethaled, non lethaled, lethaled, critted, murdered. All by people posing as sec, that for all intents and purposes are sec given the cult round. As such, I assumed they would follow the sec rules and not kill me, a non-violent non-antag. According to Imsxz, this is not a valid assumption and I should have killed them.


Also, this quote proves that the two self-antagging sec members were not acting in good faith.
[2018-09-05 16:35:11.259] SAY: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) "Kill everyone not implanted except me." (Cargo Bay (69, 151, 2))
. Someone got banned yesterday for setting the AI's laws to this yesterday. Lets show some consistency and actually follow the rules.

Anyway, logs. I solemnly swear I am posting all of the relevant ones up until I am murdered.

[2018-09-05 16:27:48.885] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has fired at CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with [laser] from Warehouse (NEWHP: 100) (Warehouse (74, 160, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:27:48.887] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has shot CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with [laser] (NEWHP: 80) (Warehouse (74, 160, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:27:50.750] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has stunned CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with [telescopic baton] (NEWHP: 80) (Warehouse (74, 161, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:27:52.050] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has grabbed CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) passive grab (NEWHP: 80) (Warehouse (75, 161, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:27:59.266] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has stunned CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with [telescopic baton] (NEWHP: 80) (Cargo Bay (72, 149, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:15.134] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Cargo Bay (Cargo Bay (69, 144, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:15.269] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has shot CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with [laser] (NEWHP: 60) (Cargo Bay (69, 145, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:22.199] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has shot CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with [disabler beam] (NEWHP: 60) (Cargo Bay (70, 151, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:22.633] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has shot CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with [disabler beam] (NEWHP: 60) (Cargo Bay (70, 151, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:29.520] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has stunned CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) (NEWHP: 60) (Cargo Bay (71, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:30.010] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 50) (Cargo Bay (71, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:29.520] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has stunned CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) (NEWHP: 60) (Cargo Bay (71, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:30.010] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 50) (Cargo Bay (71, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:30.484] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 40) (Cargo Bay (71, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:31.421] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 30) (Cargo Bay (71, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:32.527] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 20) (Cargo Bay (71, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:33.694] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 12.5) (Cargo Bay (70, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:34.709] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with spear (Wielded)[DC] (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -5.5) (Cargo Bay (70, 149, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:35.018] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -15.5) (Cargo Bay (70, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:35.625] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with spear (Wielded)[DC] (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -29) (Cargo Bay (70, 149, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:35.897] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -39) (Cargo Bay (70, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:36.643] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with spear (Wielded)[DC] (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -52.5) (Cargo Bay (70, 149, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:36.767] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -62.5) (Cargo Bay (70, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:37.670] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with spear (Wielded)[DC] (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -76) (Cargo Bay (70, 149, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:37.740] ATTACK: NecromancerAnne/(Sheness Hollow) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with stunbaton[DC] (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -86) (Cargo Bay (70, 147, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:38.537] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with spear (Wielded)[DC] (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -99.5) (Cargo Bay (70, 149, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:39.514] ATTACK: Eskjjlj/(Lucie Bellerose) has attacked CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) with spear (Wielded)[DC] (INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -117.5) (Cargo Bay (70, 149, 2))



[2018-09-05 16:27:50.992] SAY: CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) "sup" (Warehouse (75, 160, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:27:55.675] SAY: CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) "Holy water me nigger" (Port Bow Maintenance (76, 166, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:25.467] SAY: CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) "fuck off" (Cargo Bay (71, 148, 2))
[2018-09-05 16:28:39.508] EMOTE: CrazyClown12/(Gregory Whitetide) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Cargo Bay (71, 148, 2))


The only things I said during the whole debacle. Notice how I started by saying "sup" whereas Lucie started by lasering me. Deciding to use lethal force, then non-lethal, then lethal. Unable to make her mind whether she wants to follow the rules or not, before finally settling on "No, fuck the rules. We don't need proof to execute people". Which is a very antag thing to think, and declaring one's self an antag used to be frowned upon, and may still be frowned upon by some admins, but not Imsxz. Maybe they are metafriends. Maybe he just doesn't care about the rules, who knows.

Anyway, I have made enough references to the rules that I should probably post them, at least for Imsxz's benefit. As they were the captain and someone in sec uniform, I thought they come under the Sec rules. If they don't I apologise and they instead come under escalation policy. Escalation policy has been utterly ignored, as they murdered me, a non-violent non-antag with an admin's full support. I did not commit a single violent act or have violent intent.

Security Policy & Precedents
Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.
Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Security are not exceptions to the rule where non-antagonists can do anything they want, as per rule 4, to antagonists.
The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.
For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. However, security should refrain from confiscating items not related to any crimes, especially important department-specific items like hard suits. Obvious exceptions to this are things like radio headsets, if players use it to harass security over the radio while being arrested.
Don’t kill asimov borgs for trying to stop harm, unless they are being excessively disruptive, for example, locking down all of security despite only one security staff member causing harm.
While it is up to the discretion of the security player, lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig. Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armoury, is in the armoury, or is leaving it


I was not an antag or acting like an antag, yet I get murdered. No honest person in their right mind could say that there was proof I was an antag, given my complete lack of antagonistic behaviour or violence. So the rules of security have been completely (and as Sheness's quote shows, deliberately) disregarded. Really makes me think. If the sec rules don't apply to those two, then they have committed even worse rule breaks by completely disregarding Escalation policy and taking someone out of the round (after murderign me they beheaded me and locked me in a locker) and a ban therefore must be in order.

Now, with such contempt for the very rules that bind the playerbase together, you would have thought that any competent admin would be foaming at the mouth at such insolence. I thought that, and I still think that. I was always under the impression that you were obligated to follow the rules, yet Imsxz disagrees.

I could post the entire conversation we had, and will on request. But in the interest of keeping this post concise, I will just post the first and most relevant message.

every other cargo tech was a cult and sec isnt in any position to take chances at the moment. chaplain got murked early, AI was subverted, and the cult has a shitload of traction. Everyone else in your department (including the mining outpost) being culted is reason enough to suspect you in this instance. Sorry my man


Whilst I appreciate the apologetic tone, this message is at odds with the rules written on the page. They had grounds to suspect me. I admit that, if what Imsxz is true (I don't know that it is, as it would mean that numerous cultists would have walked past me and outnumbered me making no attempt at all to attack or convert me) then yes it is grounds for suspicion. This would be relevant if the rules stated it was acceptable to execute people you suspect, but they don't. They state that you require proof and must err on the side of caution. Given the fact that I was a literal nonviolent non-antag, nobody can honestly say that there was proof. Maybe if I had picked up a dagger, ran around shitposting chants or attacked someone then I would have agreed. None of those happened. I was in a room full of what may or may not have been cultists (I saw no runes or daggers at any point, nor heard any chants so I have no reason at all to suspect that they were) yet was still executed with nonlethal means available. This is in direct violation of two sec rules.

If you treat both of the self-antagging (non)valid hunters as not being security forces, despite being dresses and armed like them, then they have completely disregarded escalation policy by murdering myself, who at no point committed any violent acts and then beheading me and sticking it an a locker. At no point did they attempt to bring me back to life.

The fact that the cult had a lot of members is irrelevant in whether the rules should be laxed for security or not. It is the responsibility of sec to protect against the cult. They can not defend against their own incompetence in killing non-antags by pointing out their incompetence on preventing antags. This is in danger of creating a new meta, where Sec officers ERP in brig all round then murderbone everyone, regardless of validity.

TL;DR Murdered without proof based on a suspicion in direct conflict with the rules. Imsxz doesn't know the rules and thought this was ok.



User avatar
Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby Lazengann » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:37 pm #437680

Current precedent is that it's okay to purge entire departments in cult and rev rounds when things go south enough for the loyal crew. If this precedent hasn't been added to the rules page in an easily noticeable place, then it really should be.

If this sounds unfun and unfair it's probably because the game mode is bad and this is a consequence.

imsxz
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:27 pm
Byond Username: Imsxz

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby imsxz » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:53 pm #437683

Hi.
The reason I stood by my ruling is because I considered as a frequent security player myself, I would have done the same thing. Let me explain.

To set some background for the situation and round in general: chaplain had been killed and sacrificed very early, security had zero holy water. Quartermaster was a starter cultist, and nearly all of the supply department (except for Gregory, unfortunately) was a cultist, and they didn't have access to order holy water either. Additionally, security was getting stomped in general and shuttle was being spam recalled by the cultist Chief Engineer, combined with AI being subverted by the cultist Research Director at roundstart. They weren't in any place to take prisoners.

Security (or at least what we'll be considering security for all intents and purposes), having just killed 5 other supply department cultists, sees Gregory. There's a cult base right behind cargo, and nearly all of cargo is converted to cult. Cultists have no constant physical tells and can't be easily identified from normal crew other than having cult items on them (which cultists aren't required to have on them at a given moment). You mentioned you opened up with "Hey". While it can indicate you don't plan on murdering them, plenty of antagonists bait others into typing so said antagonist can stun them while the victim is typing. It's not much of an indicator to your intentions. Cultist stuns are invisible until primed, as well, undetectable until you've just pulled it out.

It's shitty when it happens, but this is the nature of conversion antagonist rounds. You see it happen a lot during revolution and cult alike. Alas, I didn't want to take action on the offending security because they took a gamble that most experienced security players would as well, unfortunately being incorrect in this instance. Dying is part of the game, it happens to the best of us.

User avatar
Zack
 
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:55 am
Byond Username: Zack The Zapper

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby Zack » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:55 pm #437684

Hope this doesn't count as peanut posting. This topic (viewtopic.php?f=33&t=18311) goes into detail about situations completely identical to your own, several admins responded basically confirming that exactly what happened to you is perfectly acceptable (and while yes a clarification in the rules would be really nice like Lazengann said) and there really is no grounds for an admin complaint about this considering imsxz's views on this are shared by what I can only assume is the rest of the admin staff team.

CrazyClown12
 
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:24 am
Byond Username: CrazyClown12

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby CrazyClown12 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:21 pm #437695

Yeah, for the record this is being discussed in discord as well and it seems to be 5+ people telling me I am wrong, despite everything I've said being 100% consistent with the rules page. I have been accused of rules lawyering because I have read the rules and am pointing out complete inconsistencies between what is enforced and what is written.

If that is the admin consensus, please update the rules page. It is clearly not accurate at all.

User avatar
Cobby
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby Cobby » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:40 pm #437700

Just FYI this line of thinking (for bloodcult) won't be applicable after the server is updated, as cultists have hardtells after they reach a point of no return.

As of now though, this is rational. Sometimes you just lose to misfortune, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc.
purple man bad

imsxz
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:27 pm
Byond Username: Imsxz

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby imsxz » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:49 pm #437706

Yeah with the new cult update, cultists will be physically recognizable when they really begin picking up steam, so this type of thing won't happen nearly as often in the future.

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby Arianya » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:11 am #437810

For reference, there are things not covered in direct rules which are covered here:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings

There are plans to better promote visibility of this page but I thought I'd make mention of it.

The thread that was linked earlier (viewtopic.php?f=33&t=18311) isn't included because a headmin never made a ruling regarding this policy discussion, even though the overwhelming player and admin opinion was in favour of allowing department purges under difficult circumstances. I'll refer this thread to the Headmin's in the interest of them providing a specific ruling we can point back to.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:58 pm.
Reason: peanut posting

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby Arianya » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:25 pm #439358

I'm still not a headmin but I swear to god we discuussed this in headbus and decided the complaint was without merit, which I think Crazy became aware of after discussions in discord and the like.

Sorry for the delay in resolution.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
CitrusGender
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:34 pm
Byond Username: CitrusGender
Github Username: CitrusGender

Re: [imsxz] Gregory Whitetide - Murdered by Sec, Imsxz is ok with this

Unread postby CitrusGender » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:41 am #439457

Whatever Ari said is fine.
Code: Select all
You can't eat the orange, and throw the peel away - a man is not a piece of fruit.


Return to Closed Complaints

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest