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Guessing traitor uplink codes

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Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby imsxz » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:51 am #445443

So basically with pen and headset, you can reliably guess the codes to them in a given round. Let's say you catch a guy, you know he's a traitor for whatever reason, and you want to get into his uplink because you're a greedy gamer.

In the situation above, would it be so bad to attempt to guess their uplink code knowing you have a good chance at getting it quickly with some uplink lobjects? Assume he hasn't told you what item his uplink is, either.



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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Ayy Lemoh » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:49 am #445464

imsxz wrote:So basically with pen and headset, you can reliably guess the codes to them in a given round. Let's say you catch a guy, you know he's a traitor for whatever reason, and you want to get into his uplink because you're a greedy gamer.

In the situation above, would it be so bad to attempt to guess their uplink code knowing you have a good chance at getting it quickly with some uplink lobjects? Assume he hasn't told you what item his uplink is, either.

Congrats, that's metagaming.

You don't get to randomly start fucking with his headset or pen because you saw he had a chameleon kit. It's scumbaggy to even check people's headsets for syndicate keys just incase.

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:53 am #445485

2. Do not use information gained outside of in character means.
I.e.. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Skype, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

Was this a roundabout way of getting a headmin to fix the I.e.. on the page?

I assume the point about mechanics/antags means you're allowed to know about codes. If you're upset that you wore traitor gear and security confiscated your pen, PDA and headset, I should start playing regularly again because somehow you missed out the step of executing the traitor.

Make uplinks traitor access only in the code if you don't want security to use the kit you let them have.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Cobby » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:59 am #445488

Not at all, if they don't like it then

1) Code a non-gameable way or
2) set your pref to PDA

You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Ayy Lemoh » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:17 am #445492

Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby imsxz » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:09 am #445500

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.


that is why i included in the OP originally that in this situation you're already sure that the person you have arrested is a traitor.

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby SpaceManiac » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:15 am #445501

headset: currently 24 possible frequencies as well as easy scrollthrough, best you can do is disable scrollthrough and use the full range for 199 possible frequencies
pen: 360 possible rotations; add one more digit to get 3600, should be good enough?
PDA: 900 * 26 = 23400 possible passcodes, already fine

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby ishortjr33 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:01 am #445506

Can't security players just exercise suspension of disbelief and leave headsets/pens alone in the name of fun and to keep rounds interesting?
If they can't how about anybody with a mindshield implant can't access it?

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Malkraz » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:26 am #445511

ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just [Anything that requires more than 90 IQ]

no
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby LSWraith » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:00 am #445552

Malkraz wrote:
ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just [Anything that requires more than 90 IQ]

no


fixed it better.

players gonna metagame/validhunt/etc.

to think that they're gonna abide by some ideal? you're kidding yourself.

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Screemonster » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:05 am #445555

SpaceManiac wrote:headset: currently 24 possible frequencies as well as easy scrollthrough, best you can do is disable scrollthrough and use the full range for 199 possible frequencies
pen: 360 possible rotations; add one more digit to get 3600, should be good enough?
PDA: 900 * 26 = 23400 possible passcodes, already fine

consider setting headset and pen to require, like, old-school safecrack to unlock. As in you first have to set it to one, use in-hand, then immediately set it to the second. That'd immediately bump the 24-frequency headset up to 576 combinations.

if someone leaves their uplink unlocked without locking it again though it's on them

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Grazyn » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:40 am #445571

ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just exercise suspension of disbelief and leave headsets/pens alone in the name of fun and to keep rounds interesting?
If they can't how about anybody with a mindshield implant can't access it?

There is a long-standing server culture that loathes any attempt at forcing players to "play dumb", i.e. pretending to ignore obvious game mechanics for the sake of RP. Rules accomodate this tradition with only one exception, if you find the nuke ops shuttle you must ignore it and you should not report it or attempt to attack it unless it's war ops (and this is a very recent ruling made by current headmins so it can be overturned in the future).

Sec is also quite sensitive on this issue since they are already allowed to know about innocent-looking syndie items and to investigate them, so asking them to ignore the fact that an uplink can be inside headset or pen and not just inside the PDA would be poorly received. The problem here is that those uplinks are too easy to crack, so it should be fixed through code not policy.

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby somerandomguy » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:03 pm #445590

ishortjr33 wrote:Can't security players just exercise suspension of disbelief and leave headsets/pens alone in the name of fun and to keep rounds interesting?
If they can't how about anybody with a mindshield implant can't access it?

The thing is, traitor gear is really cool and everyone wants to get it
Having fun and keeping rounds interesting is helped by getting traitor gear

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:31 pm #445615

Interesting is usually not HoS with an ebow. Fun for the HoS? Probably, they get valid gear whilst not being valid.

Generally fun and interesting coincides with not steamrolling the only antagonists unless you want mulligan enabled or whatever replacement antags is called.

If R&D still required tator kit for illegal research (that was thrown out with techwebs, right?) then there'd be a reason to get security to hand over uplinks or a traitor's stash instead of just having it for personal use.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:37 pm #445616

Fun and interesting means not artificially restricting what players can do.

I agree with Cobby's post.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:05 pm #445622

I wouldn't say it's fun and interesting to remove the restriction of sec to strip search anyone on a whim then execute for having a flash. Not all artificial restrictions are the same.

Whilst I feel the uplink problem is better to go to the github over creating a better or impervious lock, I don't feel the average player will create more fun with murder weapons. Every round I took an antag's kit I never found another antag to fight before Centcom. But I don't see the harm in this feature existing, as sec is still bound by the rules.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Steelpoint » Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:18 pm #445623

Trying to RNG guess a Traitors uplink code does strike me as acting in poor form.

However, I feel this is more a symptom that a uplink in the headset has so few possible frequencies that checking RNG is pretty easy to do. You'd be better off doing what SpaceManiac said and increasing the range, or just remove the headset uplink. Something tells me the average player in the average round won't go through 3600 possible digits to find the code.

Besides, I think Security and/or non-antagonists getting access to Traitor/Syndicate gear through in game means can lead to interesting situations.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:20 pm #445634

Steelpoint wrote:Something tells me the average player in the average round won't go through 3600 possible digits to find the code.


What 3600 digits? Checking headset frequencies for uplink takes 10 seconds. I do it all the time when there's suspicion.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Nilons » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:52 pm #445641

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.

There was already a policy thread on this

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=15289&p=378859&hilit=uplink#p378859
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby somerandomguy » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:04 pm #445657

CosmicScientist wrote:Interesting is usually not HoS with an ebow. Fun for the HoS? Probably, they get valid gear whilst not being valid.

Generally fun and interesting coincides with not steamrolling the only antagonists unless you want mulligan enabled or whatever replacement antags is called.

If R&D still required tator kit for illegal research (that was thrown out with techwebs, right?) then there'd be a reason to get security to hand over uplinks or a traitor's stash instead of just having it for personal use.

They already have an ebow, it's called a taser
I was talking about stuff like emag for extra functions on machines, binary key to chill with the silicons, bluespace launchpad because it's cool, hardsuit for mobility, sleepy pen to fill with meds to heal your officers, etc
There's a lot of traitor gear that can be used for things other than validhunting
Also, sci still has illegal tech but the main restriction is points, since you can cheese it by printing a .357 speedloader

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:02 pm #445685

Okay let's list off the reasons for having the mentioned traitor items:
>binary key to ruin a malf's day or so traitors who bought a syndi key instead of a binary key can't hear :bGriff Murderbone's killing the clown in dorms
>emag to... break everything, remove access restrictions on some consoles, machines & containers but often permanently, let cargo buy more tator kit, kill people in various ways, give generally bad chems to chemists, give an odd few drinks to the bartender, talk to syndicate/admins, launch the shuttle early, more food in vending machines, stronker megaphone, grow-your-own armblade, make the bar sign boring, escape the gulag, removal of firing pin authorisation, vape it up... so nothing sec needs, wants or is allowed to do and for the most part, grief that no-one is allowed to take advantage of outside of a confirmed valid
>briefcase launchpad... you're sec... law 2
>hardsuit, for what purpose? You have two at roundstart and spacesuits in EVA
>sleepy pen... because you don't have chem implants or you can't recruit a chemist, or ask/take the hypospray? Why can't you send injured sec to medbay?

Tator items come in flavours of:
  • kill people and break things
  • ammunition for killing people
  • ways to kill people indirectly, set them up for death or to occupy their time whilst you run
  • hiding, noslips, being stunned for less time
  • space travel
  • break things and blow stuff up
  • ignore combat mechanics implants
  • murderdeffkill role flavour
  • memes

I don't care that security can have access to everything the traitor lets them have by failing, but if you're going to argue that traitor gear can be used outside of combat, please provide a better argument that does not include ignoring communication channel restrictions, mobility, ignoring station access and healing.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby somerandomguy » Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:37 pm #445703

- Normal hardsuits don't have fast mode
- sec confiscating the hypo is garbage and sometimes there's an emergency
- lotsa the emag stuff is useable as nonantag (although not always useful for sec), including emagging borgs (but you have to be careful to not be shit with it)
- there's even an emag function specifically FOR sec, the mask thing
- if you emag a chem dispenser you can make rezadone easily, which heals clone damage without cryo
- launchpads are just cool and underused
- binary key can be used to just talk to silicons too
Additionally
- cham kit to mess around
- soap because sec is probably a mess by now
- adrenals to cheat death
- cash to buy stuff from cargo

Sure all of it can be used to validhunt or grief, but there's other uses too, you just need to, well, not use it to validhunt
Also >"choose a better argument that isn't your existing argument"

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby CosmicScientist » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:37 am #445776

You still haven't listed uses besides validhunt.
  • why do you need fast mode?
  • what emergency can't cloning, defibs, ;doctor or asking chemists to give patches to each of your sec officers not solve that a sleepy pen can?
  • emag for non-sec is just "I couldn't think of a good reason to have access from the HoP and the AI ignored law 2"
  • that's a better argument
  • I didn't know you could make rezadone, I just saw a lot of traitor use only when reading the chem dispenser's wiki entry
  • launchpads for the sake of launchpads is as strong an argument as all access for the sake of all access
  • last I checked, no-one just talks on tgstation, too much TDM, not enough time, the most just talking is either two people being upset one person Nya'd or reacting to a funny captain announcement, when it's not about a station threat that can be killed
  • messing around isn't really a use unless you're planning on performance art better than the clown
  • call the janitor or ask the cap for his soap
  • cheating death is a combat benefit
  • did not know goofconomy affected cargo

I told you to choose a better argument than your existing argument because it just listed off combat benefits rather than giving uses outside of combat that it does better than station kit. If it has combat applications, players are going to use them for combat because that's most of the game when you ignore the simulation. Needing to just not use something for validhunting doesn't work: see drones, silicons, pre-departmental lathes, stunprods/gloves, circular saws, all mining loot, the list goes on.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby iamgoofball » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:40 am #445777

the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:55 am #445780

iamgoofball wrote:the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

gonna leave it here actually since it seems like the goal of the thread is to make a rule against brute forcing codes. but IMO a code solution would be a better fix
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby Cobby » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:00 am #445784

Ayy Lemoh wrote:
Cobby wrote:You're allowed to know mechanics, ergo you're allowed to know uplinks are in the PDA/headset/pen.

You're allowed to know however you shouldn't actually arrest someone for breaking a window, take their pen, and start guessing rapidly.

Not to strawman argument but you're also allowed to know the AI can burn all of the station into a crisp with atmos. You're not allowed to make atmos immune to the AI sadly, though.


I think if you actually look at the question in the original post then look at my response again you'd find the answer to your question.
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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby iamgoofball » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:10 am #445792

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

gonna leave it here actually since it seems like the goal of the thread is to make a rule against brute forcing codes. but IMO a code solution would be a better fix

yeah nah this doesn't need a rule, the fact it's brute forceable on pens/radios is frankly bug report worthy

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Re: Guessing traitor uplink codes

Unread postby imsxz » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:45 pm #446223

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:the cargo budget is the cargo points, this has been in since launch of economy

also this should be moved to coding feedback since the uplink codes are supposed to be randomized enough to prevent bruteforcing and quite frankly headset/pen uplinks could use removal or just add like a few extra zeroes onto the possible permutations

gonna leave it here actually since it seems like the goal of the thread is to make a rule against brute forcing codes. but IMO a code solution would be a better fix


I made this thread with the idea in mind that the listed game mechanic is an issue, the goal was to see if a code solution is needed or a policy solution. It seems like code so far and that's what I was hoping we'd conclude on.


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