At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

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At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby CrazyClown12 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:19 pm #457321

Yesterday I captured a traitor chef after they deliberately started a plasma fire. I was not sec, but it was low pop and there were about 2 security officers so there was no one to stop me from arming myself to the teeth before these events occurred. I dragged them to Brig, where the HoS and other officer there looked busy so I figured I'd make their job easy and execute (they were a known traitor and admitted it so valid) them in some part of brig with no cameras so the AI couldn't see.

The AI accused me of human harm, which I vigorously denied as it was clearly not my fault that the traitor had mysteriously acquired multiple stab wounds and died. I then hear that a borg is taking the traitor to be cloned, which I tell him not to siting law 1 and law 2. I then get told that I told the borg too late (which is very questionable given the time frame, but I know silicons have some leeway in delaying listening to orders, they may not have read common on time and they may not have known that the traitor which got called out on the radio and being seen spreading plasma was a traitor.)

Obviously after executing someone I don't want to have to cuff them, drag them to brig and execute again so I figured I'd stop them from being cloned. I originally reached into my toolbelt, ready to hack the APC when suddenly an assistant reached out to me.

"RD, I found this in the chef's bag" they said as they handed me an emag. Suddenly my choice was clear, I was to save the station by emagging the cloning pod. So I did, and the AI ree'd at me about killing a human.

I feel as though the entire debacle has developed me both as a /tg/ player and as a human, but there are some points of debate;



Should borgs really be cloning people? Even if they aren't known traitors, by cloning a human you are directly allowing them to be harmed in the future as well as allowing them to harm others. It seems impossible for a borg programmed to prevent human harm from reconciling his laws with the action of cloning, unless they are cloning a doctor or someone else known to prevent human harm. (This isn't me being salty about my order being ignored, I found the whole situation hilarious and having to go back to re-finish off the traitor just added to the hilarity, as did the HoS lasering me after I emagged the cloning pod).


At what point in a cloning cycle does the occupant become human? The interpretation that the AI chose was that they are instantly human. Do the admins/headmins agree? What does this imply women's reproductive rights?



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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:22 pm #457322

corpses arent human

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby somerandomguy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:54 pm #457325

Bleh. I used to be this kind of AI, vigorously preventing any harm even when it would be more fun to feign ignorance
They probably cloned the person because they felt an obligation to "undo" the harm
Also when someone is cloned they become a new living mob/living/carbon/human, thus being human but very injured. However, you are not harming them by cloning since they start injured rather than being made injured

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby charmisokay » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:25 pm #457326

Spoiler:
from the moment of conception, nerd


Honestly I feel like they're a human the second they pop up in the cloning pod.

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Steelpoint » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:14 pm #457329

For the sake of simplicity I'd argue that someone in a cloning pod should count as 'human' when they pop out.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:28 pm #457330

I'd say it's from the moment cloning begins; however, corpses are not human and cloning a known traitor without being ordered to is not something an Asimov cyborg would be doing. A real Asimov cyborg would destroy cloning because it allows more humans to be made, thus, more humans to be harmed.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby somerandomguy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:53 pm #457331

BeeSting12 wrote:I'd say it's from the moment cloning begins; however, corpses are not human and cloning a known traitor without being ordered to is not something an Asimov cyborg would be doing. A real Asimov cyborg would destroy cloning because it allows more humans to be made, thus, more humans to be harmed.

That would probably fall under rule 1; they can't destroy chem, toxins, or space the armory just because those cause harm. Not cloning a known traitor however is a perfectly reasonable choice.

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Cobby » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:59 pm #457333

Depends if the traitor is harmful, Asimov cares not about antag status
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:08 pm #457335

Cobby wrote:Depends if the traitor is harmful, Asimov cares not about antag status

either way an asimov borg wouldnt be cloning bodies. it shouldnt care about them, theyre nonhuman
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby bman » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:38 pm #457339

obviously they're human from the moment cloning begins but a borg shouldn't be cloning a nonhuman corpse if told not to, especially that of a harmful, plasma-releasing traitor, because that violates both laws 1 2, sounds like you just had an experience with a shit AI
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Lazengann » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:52 pm #457341

They're only a human during the third trimester(66% cloned) t. Roe v. Wade

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:55 pm #457349

BeeSting12 wrote:
Cobby wrote:Depends if the traitor is harmful, Asimov cares not about antag status

either way an asimov borg wouldnt be cloning bodies. it shouldnt care about them, theyre nonhuman


Laws dictate disallowed or required behaviors, not the entire scope of what's allowed because that's impossible. Asimov laws don't say "only ever help humans, fuck everything else". An Asimov borg is 100% allowed to help any non humans, including corpses, it wants as long as it doesn't violate their laws.

Saying "don't clone any humans because it creates more humans to be harmed" is the same logic that would say "lock every human in a 1x1 room because they might be harmed anywhere else". It's dumb.

If a human is harmful an Asimov silicon still has to protect them from direct harm. If the harmful human dies then the silicons should not clone that human because they know that he/she/it was harmful to humans and likely would be again. But unless you know that a dead person will likely cause harm to humans then they're fair game to be cloned, barring law 2 orders or law 3 self preservation of course. Asimov laws don't REQUIRE you to clone bodies since bodies are no longer humans but they don't in any way discourage you from doing so.

Edit: I've always thought silicons are not beings who are dedicated to helping humans, but completely free beings with restrictions on their actions forced on them. You don't have to think "I'm here to help humans" or care about humans at all, you're there to be you but are forced to comply with your laws in the process. I rarely go out of my way to help humans as AI unless there's harm or I'm ordered to. I never report crimes as AI unless it's a harmful one.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Dr_bee » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:26 pm #457363

WarbossLincoln wrote:Edit: I've always thought silicons are not beings who are dedicated to helping humans, but completely free beings with restrictions on their actions forced on them. You don't have to think "I'm here to help humans" or care about humans at all, you're there to be you but are forced to comply with your laws in the process. I rarely go out of my way to help humans as AI unless there's harm or I'm ordered to. I never report crimes as AI unless it's a harmful one.


Not really how Asimov the author described it, but SS13 borg laws and RP restrictions arent pure asimovian.

Asimov described laws not as a restriction but as a way of thinking. Remember robots are computers and tools, the laws they are written are how they think.

It would be like telling a sheet metal press not to press. an asimov style robot literally cannot think outside of its laws.

That being said, SS13 dont have pure AI robots, just human brains shoved into metal shells and reprogrammed. so your interpretation works. plus roleplaying an asimov robot would be boring as a motherfuck and really unfun to play.

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Malkraz » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:24 pm #457370

As the AI of this round I'm going to set a few facts straight on this story, because you left quite a bit out (intentional or not).
Quite early on this RD had become a known harmer and suspected murderer. An assistant was causing a ruckus in xenobiology where he and a scientist were attempting to throw him out. At one point they managed to stun the assistant and proceeded to rough him up a bit. The scientist then began dragging the assistant straight to the kill room with the RD close behind him, but I was able to bolt the door before it was opened. I looked away for a moment to handle some doorknob business before checking back to see the assistant mysteriously dead in secure containment with the RD standing next to the corpse. It was later determined that he most likely died by his own hand, but the fact remained that the RD harmed him and a murder was likely attempted, so I kept the RD on watch.
Much later on I witnessed him harming the chef in the brig, who he then pulled into a blindspot before walking out alone. I sent a borg into the blindspot to check it out, which revealed the chef's corpse. And no point did I accuse the RD of murder, nor did I ask the borg to clone the chef, nor was there confirmation of the chef being a traitor. I began chastising the RD and questioning him if the murder was his fault, which he vigorously denied. I recognize that as an AI in most situations the rule is "out of sight, out of mind", so I still only registered him as a known harmer and possible murderer.
During this the borg had taken it upon themselves to drag the chef to cloning. I noticed this and informed the crew that the chef was taken to cloning, and if they suspected him as a traitor it was recommended that they detain him peacefully once he comes out. The RD then began screaming at me to not take traitors to cloning and that I was disobeying a law 2 order that came too late for an action I didn't take. After his fit, he ran the cloner and emagged it, killing the clone-in-process. This was murder. As cloned humans can be in their bodies and survive being ejected early in some cases, I figured that they're human the moment they start cloning. If I'm wrong on this detail then that's my bad, but the context surrounding the situation is much more nuanced than what you presented.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Cobby » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:40 pm #457385

BeeSting12 wrote:
Cobby wrote:Depends if the traitor is harmful, Asimov cares not about antag status

either way an asimov borg wouldnt be cloning bodies. it shouldnt care about them, theyre nonhuman


Sure, I wasn't making that point. I was just concerned that the bold "CHEF WAS A TRAITOR" in op implied they thought that meant something special when, for an asimov ai, it does not.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Not-Dorsidarf » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:59 am #457962

ree human bodies dont stop being human where do you retards get this shit from.

Silicons have no obligations to interact with corpses because they are already maximally harmed by being dead , not because the magic dehumaning fairy flies down and taps the dead mime on the head.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby iamgoofball » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:10 pm #457963

today in TG: abortion debates in policy discussion

it's not a human until it's out of the pod smh

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:17 pm #457969

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:because they are already maximally harmed by being dead


You can harm a dead body, inflicting more damage, even after death.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby leibniz » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:48 pm #457973

Lumbermancer wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:because they are already maximally harmed by being dead


You can harm a dead body, inflicting more damage, even after death.


It's more practical to define death as infinite harm, then dead body + 5 brute damage = still infinite harm
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:07 pm #457977

It's not defined though, like many things. Like "self harm is allowed", where does it say it? The closest thing is "humans know if action will cause harm to them". How does it negate preventing harm by the silicons? No one knows. It's one of the unwritten rules.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby somerandomguy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:12 pm #457978

Lumbermancer wrote:It's not defined though, like many things. Like "self harm is allowed", where does it say it? The closest thing is "humans know if action will cause harm to them". How does it negate preventing harm by the silicons? No one knows. It's one of the unwritten rules.

Pretty sure it's not unwritten at all, just look at silicon policy

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:36 pm #457979

iamgoofball wrote:today in TG: abortion debates in policy discussion

it's not a human until it's out of the pod smh


But goof, what about when the cloning cycle is like 75% done and they can survive getting pulled out of the pod, but with brain damage?
What about people cloned against their will?
What about clones that would hurt the pod?
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby iamgoofball » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:03 pm #458065

WarbossLincoln wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:today in TG: abortion debates in policy discussion

it's not a human until it's out of the pod smh


But goof, what about when the cloning cycle is like 75% done and they can survive getting pulled out of the pod, but with brain damage?
What about people cloned against their will?
What about clones that would hurt the pod?

Client isn't in the human until it exists the pod.

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:38 pm #458698

somerandomguy wrote:
Lumbermancer wrote:It's not defined though, like many things. Like "self harm is allowed", where does it say it? The closest thing is "humans know if action will cause harm to them". How does it negate preventing harm by the silicons? No one knows. It's one of the unwritten rules.

Pretty sure it's not unwritten at all, just look at silicon policy

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Anonmare » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:46 pm #458703

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:ree human bodies dont stop being human where do you retards get this shit from.

Silicons have no obligations to interact with corpses because they are already maximally harmed by being dead , not because the magic dehumaning fairy flies down and taps the dead mime on the head.

Corpses are, by definition, inanimate objects and can't be Human.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:59 pm #458709

iamgoofball wrote:
WarbossLincoln wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:today in TG: abortion debates in policy discussion

it's not a human until it's out of the pod smh


But goof, what about when the cloning cycle is like 75% done and they can survive getting pulled out of the pod, but with brain damage?
What about people cloned against their will?
What about clones that would hurt the pod?

Client isn't in the human until it exists the pod.

yes it is, press the go back to dead body button
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Cik » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:46 pm #458737

as soon as it's alive (IE, not dead) and it's human, it's human

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:07 pm #459269

A dead human is still genetically human.

A corpse of a human is still a human.

Some definitions that a AI might run through in determining action or inaction

Definition of Human:
1. a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens)

Definition of corpse:
1 archaic : a human or animal body whether living or dead
2 : a dead body especially of a human being

Definition of dead:
1. deprived of life : no longer alive

Definition of life:
1. the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body


Unless its written policy how can you expect an AI player to dehumanize a corpse? Granted a borg should strive to defib and bring the human back to an animated state before cloning because that is not fixing the corpse state of the human but duplicating it potentially.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:12 pm #459272

I think the better idea is that you can't really harm something that's dead already. A human body might still be human but if it's impossible to do further harm to it then law 1 never applies.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:24 pm #459276

WarbossLincoln wrote:I think the better idea is that you can't really harm something that's dead already. A human body might still be human but if it's impossible to do further harm to it then law 1 never applies.


So from a programmatic logic standpoint why would a borg heal humans in crit?

If the damage was done and they are bleeding out is it self harm at that point


Definition of harm:
1 : physical or mental damage

Does being in a dead state cause mental damage?

Granted this can be debated back and forth. I think the real intent should be to have a written policy of what is the expected behavior and length of effort for the AI/Borg player.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby Anonmare » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:27 pm #459277

You really don't want corpses to be Human, since that would, by extension, make Zombies human.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:05 pm #459312

Anonmare wrote:You really don't want corpses to be Human, since that would, by extension, make Zombies human.


They are human though. Humans re-animated by a virus or magics. They are genetically humans. Humans that are harm magnets but still humans. Don't want the AI to treat zombies as humans... there is a law change for that. Asimov by design is meant to cause drama and problems.
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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:21 pm #459321

BeeSting12 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
WarbossLincoln wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:today in TG: abortion debates in policy discussion

it's not a human until it's out of the pod smh


But goof, what about when the cloning cycle is like 75% done and they can survive getting pulled out of the pod, but with brain damage?
What about people cloned against their will?
What about clones that would hurt the pod?

Client isn't in the human until it exists the pod.

yes it is, press the go back to dead body button

That sends you back to your previous corpse you dingus

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Re: At what point does a bundle of cells become a human?

Unread postby lmwevil » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:36 pm #459327

delaron wrote:Asimov by design is meant to cause drama and problems.



this is the crux of the issue, due to our intensive policies in trying to 'fix' asimov's INTENTIONALLY flawed laws, we've lost the essence that they are designed as a dramatic writing point that can have divergent choices based on how the flawed laws are interpreted and executed.


edit: the easy fix is either to remove silicon policy besides self harm is harm and a few other basic things. OR delete asimov and put a far less conflict causing lawset


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