[MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

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Eskjjlj
 
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[MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby Eskjjlj » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:52 pm #458777

Byond account: Eskjjlj
Character name: Clementine Bontemps
Banning admin: MortoSasye
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server
Ban reason and length: 1 day : Overscalation - After their insulated gloves got stolen they started attacking the thief, said thief died in an explosion, but Eskjjlj continued by cutting power to cloning (while they were in the process of being cloned) and cremating the body. Didn't understood why this was wrong.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2018-12-02 22:48:33
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
logs : https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... ound-97981
Your side of the story: I manage to grab the insulated gloves from the tool storage and Gubu Gristlegums repeatedly tables me and steals the gloves out of my backpack. If you look at the attack logs he literally attacked me roundstart and unprovoked.
Spoiler:
[2018-12-02 22:21:03.784] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has attempted to disarm Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (92, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:06.511] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has attempted to disarm Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) (NEWHP: 100) (Port Maintenance (84, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:08.875] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has disarmed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) (NEWHP: 100) (Port Bow Maintenance (84, 145, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:12.470] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has pushed over Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) (NEWHP: 100) (Port Bow Maintenance (83, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:13.848] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Port Maintenance (84, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:14.986] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:16.145] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has tabled Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) onto the table (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:16.547] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:17.696] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:18.803] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has tabled Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) onto the table (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:19.728] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:21.126] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:22.312] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has tabled Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) onto the table (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:23.706] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:24.892] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:26.025] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has tabled Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) onto the table (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:27.050] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:28.162] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:29.288] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has tabled Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) onto the table (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:31.240] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:32.374] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:33.580] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has tabled Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) onto the table (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:34.372] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has grabbed Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) passive grab (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:21:34.719] ATTACK: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) has stripped the satchel off Eskjjlj/(Clementine Bontemps) (NEWHP: 100) (Primary Tool Storage (86, 148, 2))

I try to kill him and get my gloves back afterwards but we both get bombed by a traitor. He ends up dead and I severely wounded and we are dragged to the medbay where he is cloned. I temporarily cut power to cloning to get him out. Since I couldn't find my gloves anywhere I cremated him for the theft of my gloves.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
I legitimately acquired those gloves by winning the assistant race but Gubu decided to use violence to get the gloves for himself. Considering that it was a highpop round (~80 players) insulated gloves are one of the rarest item on station and I wouldn't have been able to find another pair. With that knowledge I decided to seek retribution. Gubu clearly didn't care whether I had a fun round or not so why should I? If he didn't want to get removed from the round perhaps he should not have stolen my property. And as per the escalation policy:
If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.


By the logic of the escalation policy he instigated the conflict since I clearly did not attack him until I was assaulted. So he had no protection from me retaliating yet he ahelped and I got banned. Was I supposed to just let him go unpunished, accepting the fact that my gloves were lost from the moment he stole them from me? By cremating him I was making a point that I did not tolerate being griefed for no reason and now this ban proves that a player can be griefed without any serious consequences for the instigator despite what the rules say.
I am kindly asking to be unbanned as I did not break any rule, I simply defended myself in game against another player who griefed me.

EDIT: Logs that show Gubu only stole my gloves to spite me:
Spoiler:
[2018-12-02 22:25:31.886] SAY: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) "Selling insulated gloves for 240 bucks at the comissary." (Vacant Commissary (92, 140, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:27:30.234] SAY: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) (ghost) "you'll never get my gloves" (Vacant Commissary (91, 140, 2))
[2018-12-02 22:27:33.467] SAY: Yankowitz/(Gubu Gristlegums) (ghost) "i put 'em in me safe" (Vacant Commissary (91, 140, 2))



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CitrusGender
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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby CitrusGender » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:10 am #458785

This is a bit borderline of a situation. Yes you're given some protection if you're not the aggressor: but going from stealing something to murdering something is a bit borderline.

Going from stealing something to cutting off cloning and cremating them is a bit far from what should be expected.

That being said, this is a one off thing though so the punishment length may vary a bit. You did break the rule but I suppose I would have personally gave a shorter ban or a note for this.

Ultimately, I'd agree with the ban though.
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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby MortoSasye » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:28 am #458797

Good evening!

The reason why i decided to apply the dayban was because you overescalated the moment you cremated the person in question, taking them out of the round permanently. While killing someone for stealing is accepted according to escalation, taking them out of the round permanently is not.

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

I can understand why you decided to kill them, since it's accepted according to the previous text. But, killing and cremating are two completely different things. Killing takes someone out of the round temporarily, while cremating permanently removes them from it.

I know it sucks getting your insulated gloves stolen, specially when they're so rare at highpop and losing it permanently because of the thief death. But the actions you took were excessive.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:09 am #458815

MortoSasye wrote:You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time)

That applies to the instigator of the conflict, not the person who's retaliating. I already argued against a basically identical ban when spyroshark got banned and I'm not gonna waste energy on it if it'll get denied anyways but saying that applies to the person who is retaliating is false.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby Malkraz » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:18 am #458822

BeeSting12 wrote:That applies to the instigator of the conflict, not the person who's retaliating. I already argued against a basically identical ban when spyroshark got banned and I'm not gonna waste energy on it if it'll get denied anyways but saying that applies to the person who is retaliating is false.

The part MortoSasye is specifically pointing to is the "they killed you" portion of escalation policy. The killing is the targeted party's response to the instigator messing with them. The point made here is that going above and beyond killing an instigator (cremation) for stealing gloves is bad escalation. You aren't automatically made valid for round removal in every situation that's considered "instigation", otherwise we'd have Engineers tossing people into the SM for breaking into tech storage or Assistants spacing each other for tabling.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:38 am #458831

Malkraz wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:That applies to the instigator of the conflict, not the person who's retaliating. I already argued against a basically identical ban when spyroshark got banned and I'm not gonna waste energy on it if it'll get denied anyways but saying that applies to the person who is retaliating is false.

The part MortoSasye is specifically pointing to is the "they killed you" portion of escalation policy. The killing is the targeted party's response to the instigator messing with them. The point made here is that going above and beyond killing an instigator (cremation) for stealing gloves is bad escalation. You aren't automatically made valid for round removal in every situation that's considered "instigation", otherwise we'd have Engineers tossing people into the SM for breaking into tech storage or Assistants spacing each other for tabling.

They wouldn't have bolded it if they weren't trying to point it out. Just trying to make sure that part of escalation policy doesn't apply to the retaliators.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby Nilons » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:43 am #458833

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

gotta love bans that directly fly in the face of the rules page

wow if you thought it was unfair or excessive they killed you for stealing their gloves, try ban baiting, it works!

this is the part of escalation policy you missed when you skimmed the wiki during admin training

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.


there is no obligation for the person being attacked to not remove the instigator from the round
Last edited by Nilons on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby somerandomguy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:47 am #458834

pretty sure hiding the body is allowed (and cremation is an extention of that) if you're not the initiator but that might only be if they attacked you

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby CitrusGender » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:17 am #458839

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=19212&p=434892

There's some precedent here. Obviously it's by me and luckily I hold the same exact opinion so I'm not contradicting myself.

If anything, this is a worse case than what Spyroshark did.
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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby Eskjjlj » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:23 am #458840

In Spyroshark's case it was unclear who the instigator was because walking up to him with a flash isn't logged.

But in this case I was clearly attacked unprovoked which means Gubu forfeits administrative protection as per the escalation policy.

So I would say I was within my rights to retaliate in such a way.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby Malkraz » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:31 am #458846

I think this quote from that thread is the most important in relation to this and it's reflected in other statements about the nature of the rules:
Stickymayhem wrote:The intent of the rules is more important than the letter. We don't accept shitty rules lawyering from players, nor should we do so from admins.
It was a bad faith escalation, he leapt straight to killing and permanently removing someone from the round. If everyone did that, the game wouldn't function. He should have tased and roughed him up, at worst really critted him.

This should probably just go to a policy discussion at this point, though.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby oranges » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:41 am #458849

this is a cut and dry case of over escalation, making it a policy discussion or changing the wording of the policy is simply kowtowing to people who will do everything in their power to weasel every situation into one where they can get their valids.
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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:49 am #458851

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby oranges » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:49 am #458852

you were on the wrong side of this argument last time beesting12, and you haven't even changed your so called "argument"
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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby BeeSting12 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:51 am #458853

I am still on the right side of this argument, you're wrong and this is explicitly allowed by the rules. If it's not, then the rules page should be updated instead of having innocent players get banned each time because they can't read the headmins' minds.
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
oranges wrote:Bee sting is honestly the nicest admin, I look forward to seeing him as a headmin one day

Click here to make incoherent rants about my badminning.

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby oranges » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:55 am #458855

it's not hard to not act like a dick.
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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:32 am #458900

Could this be judged as a Rule 1 issue then?

Is it possible to have the escalation rules looked over a bit? They seem to lean on the side of allowing extreme escalation when read as written, so whatever the intent of the rule is; it could be clearer than it currently is. Should this be taken to policy discussion?

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Re: [MortoSasye] Eskjjlj - Banned for cremating a griefer

Unread postby Arianya » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:34 am #458916

Not being obligated to revive the instigator != being given the right to remove someone permanently from the round. The protection referred to in that rule is the protection of being revived if you weren't the instigator.

You are under no obligation to revive an instigator, but there's a wide reef between "not reviving an instigator" and "aborting their cloning cycle and then cremating them", especially since there was no reason that I can see to do so other then wanting to "win the fight", as its not like the still cloning person could have been wearing your gloves.

This is consistent with how it's been enforced in the past, and so Morto was correct to punish you in this case.

In light of that, I'm going to deny this appeal.
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