Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

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delaron
 
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Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:39 pm #459240

So auto cloning and pre-scanning AND scanning database all were removed. So even if there is a corpse waiting to be scanned if someone else is in the process of being cloned then its a wash.

Was this approved as a test or is it a permanent code change?

What is the current process on design decisions and the communities ability to provide feedback?

Is there a difference of process regarding PRs that only remove a functionality?

I personally think this was a removal with no effort put into a replacement feature and thus ask why it wasn't vetted as a removal change that requires additional feedback.
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Steelpoint
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Steelpoint » Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:53 pm #459244

Autocloning was always a feature I was dubious about, it really helped foster a attitude of life being very cheap, even by our standards.

Pre-scanning being removed is a more dubious alteration, I can understand the reasoning. However pre-scanning still requires someone to physically interact with the cloning machine and manually activate it. Furthermore there is no indication that someone who is scanned is dead, so unless your death is brought to attention, or a saint of a Medical Player decides to check all the scan records, then being pre-scanned is no guarantee you'll be cloned after dying.

If we want to make death more impactful, I'd welcome a design document suggesting how to do this. Such as making cloning a harder and move involved affair (perhaps you need to play a mini-game to clone someone with minimal defects) and make defibrillation more useful, for example.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:37 pm #459254

Steelpoint wrote:Autocloning was always a feature I was dubious about, it really helped foster a attitude of life being very cheap, even by our standards.

Pre-scanning being removed is a more dubious alteration, I can understand the reasoning. However pre-scanning still requires someone to physically interact with the cloning machine and manually activate it. Furthermore there is no indication that someone who is scanned is dead, so unless your death is brought to attention, or a saint of a Medical Player decides to check all the scan records, then being pre-scanned is no guarantee you'll be cloned after dying.

If we want to make death more impactful, I'd welcome a design document suggesting how to do this. Such as making cloning a harder and move involved affair (perhaps you need to play a mini-game to clone someone with minimal defects) and make defibrillation more useful, for example.



See this is good! I like this type of feedback and discussion! I agree auto cloning was an easy way to cheese death into oblivion.

Some thoughts on methods to improve the process of cloning:

The pre-scanning on a cloner with zero upgrades could degrade over time.
Pre-scanning could cost money?
-Opens up quality of service options?
-Free shitty half baked clone?
-Platinum service clone could get you powers?
Pay cycle deduction to keep clone on record?

I will say loosing auto cloners is not a bad change. The loss of pre scan and the scan DB is far more problematic and detrimental to the game loop in my opinion.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:42 pm #459256

Idea I put into the other thread discussing this:

If you want cloning to be less common then removing auto-cloning is worth trying, but another thing to consider is making it take the swipe of an ID with genetics access on it in order to start the actual cloning.

But yeah, taking out pre-scan and database is a poor idea. The current state of cloning is: total shit show until auto-cloning is in, and then it becomes super effective. Some tweaks could be interesting but lets not fuck cloning up too much.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:55 pm #459263

Make cloning cost money. Add some kind of chemical that can only be obtained from cargo, medical would of course start with a supply of it. You would need to buy and stockpile enough of this reagent to keep cloning. A clone pod would accept a beaker of the chemical.

While that's being added also modify science budget so that when they get points for doing research, the earnings are distributed between all departments. The fluff reason for the station to exist is to do research, every department supports R&D in that directly or indirectly. If doctors are cloning scientists who die, chefs are keeping scientists fed, and sec is keeping hooligans from fucking up R&D they should all get a bonus based on how well science does.

This would give every department some income to do stuff. Like giving medical an income with which to buy this chemical. It would also introduce important people securing enough of the chemical to clone themselves. HOS could spend some of their budget getting a bottle of enough of the chemical to give to all sec staff to keep in their backpacks. Gives them a shot at being recovered with enough mats to clone them in case medbay doesn't have enough, or if some dick robbed medbay's supply.

In my head it should be expensive enough to not be trivial but at the right price so that if shit is not hitting the fan medbay should have enough for everyone. This would also give another way to interact with the economy in a tangible way.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Actionb » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:06 pm #459268

Is the whole money thing even possible? Isn't your cash bound to the ID card and not your mind?
How are you going to pay for cloning if you're dead and your ID was stolen?

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:10 pm #459271

the idea isn't that each person would pay for cloning manually but that medical would purchase a stock of chemicals for cloning from their budget. This would work along with something like the science income getting distributed to all the department budgets.

Medical would make all the purchases and keep the chems. Medical would also triage important people if the stock runs very low. Makes assistant lives less cheap if you know you'll get thrown to the bottom of the heap in a shortage.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:17 pm #459274

For pre-scanning and storage into the clone DB that would cost money that comes off your equipped ID.
-Money which then goes to the medical fund and helps keep the cloning mat stocked?

I like the idea that cloning requires bio mass. That was a thing several years ago and was removed for reasons I don't specifically recall.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Actionb » Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:46 pm #459282

I'm certain pre-scanning will come back anyhow.
Pre-scanning has been in the game for so long, I dont even remember the game without it and it never was a big issue.
The issue is the automatic process of your record getting cloned when it allows Potato McPowerGame to have infinite lives with a private cloning lab.
The crew doesnt immediately become the ss13 version of lemmings just because cloning is easy, I dont buy into that idea. Getting cloned without gear still sucks.

I play geneticist a lot and there's never ever been a queue of people self-scanning, most people just don't give enough of a fuck to get a backup. I mean, I dont even get a backup when I am playing geneticist and the machine is practically one tile away and fully upgraded.
The automatic scanning is primarily used to scan a lot of dead people in quick succession. I don't see an issue there either. If you get rid of autoscanning you would maybe see more old school speed cloning, which would be nice I guess, but removing it would still feel ... spiteful?

However, having the machine efficiently clone one person after another without human input, could be seen as 'too much', I can agree on that.
But just because somebody made a salt-PR, we don't immediately have to abandon ship.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Farquaar » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:29 pm #459289

Another idea:
Make cloning an involved process. Each stage requires a geneticist (or doctor if none are available) to check if everything is going normally.
For instance, the cloner has a display light that changes colour based on how far along the clone is. At each "stage" there is a chance of something going wrong. These problems could be fixed by pressing certain buttons on the cloning console or by adding more or less common chemicals to the cloner. If untreated, the resulting clone could end up with missing limbs and organs, have brain damage, nerve problems or other mutations.

While ignoring problems at any stage is bad, problems that occur in the first stage are more likely to result in death, and the second stage are more likely to result in disabilities. Issues in the third stage can cause problems that are cosmetic or can be fixed with traditional surgery.

Examples:
Spoiler:
Stage 1
Problem: Some ionizing radiation has resulted in improper heart formation.
Treatment: Add mutadone to the cloning tube.
If Untreated: Clone will die before being ejected. The corpse will lack a heart and be severely malformed.

Stage 2
Problem: The clone appears to have a space-Rubella infection.
Treatment: Add spaceaccillin to the cloning tube.
If Untreated: Clone could emerge with hearing problems, vision problems, mental retardation, or weak bones (takes greatly increased brute damage from all sources)

Stage 3
Problem: An membranous band appears to be constricting bloodflow to one of the limbs.
Treatment: Mechanical intervention (button on the console)
If Untreated: Clone will emerge with a missing limb.

In hindsight, this post of mine probably belongs in the ideas forum.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby confused rock » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:58 pm #459309

I think pre-scanning is the most powergamey thing that's been ever glossed over. Just because it's more brainless than making an improvised shotgun doesn't mean its less powergamey.

A lot of stuff is going to be reworked probably if cloning is changed further. Podcloning definitely, I've been thinking of ways to change that. Defibs will probably be buffed to how they used to be, and even borging may be changed if it becomes a viable alternative to cloning.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:15 pm #459315

confused rock wrote:I think pre-scanning is the most powergamey thing that's been ever glossed over. Just because it's more brainless than making an improvised shotgun doesn't mean its less powergamey.

A lot of stuff is going to be reworked probably if cloning is changed further. Podcloning definitely, I've been thinking of ways to change that. Defibs will probably be buffed to how they used to be, and even borging may be changed if it becomes a viable alternative to cloning.



In the recent implementation sure. Shame there isn't a solid way to hold players accountable to only having information available to them at time of scan. Ie you dont know how you died or the circumstances of said death. I figure that requires too much overhead babysitting by admins to enforce consistently.

I could also get on board with some type of two factor cloning authentication. Want a pre-scan? Requires a brain implant that blue space sends your memory to the pre-scan copy in the DB. Then Give traitors a window to disable or destroy the implant upon player death in order to prevent the pre-scan from being viable. Keeps cloning viable for senseless murdersprees as there wont be time to null all those you kill unless your that god damn robust and keeps death without clone/body retrieval a real threat.


I really just want the damn scan DB back even if its only for corpses.
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PostThis post was deleted by delaron on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:15 pm.
Reason: duplicate

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby iamgoofball » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:19 pm #459319

get good and stop relying on easy revives

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby delaron » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:25 pm #459322

iamgoofball wrote:get good and stop relying on easy revives


*refuses to deliver quick jab regarding github access*

Legit in its recent state cloning was easy mode for sure. Feel free to add more useful or actionable commentary or suggestions.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby carshalash » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:02 am #459378

Pretty much every other server this is has prescanning, I don't understand why it's a problem now. I still don't understand why prescanning was removed if 4dplanners complaints were entirely about autoprocessing, prescanning still would have required input from medbay staff or someone else to be able to notice "Oh, this fuck is dead. Better press the button." It's already going to be made infinitely easier to kill people with the movement speed change making it easier to hot someone with a single taser bolt and murder them, why fucking make it harder to get revived if you're going to make it so easy to murder people?

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Cobby » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:14 am #459379

Was this approved as a test or is it a permanent code change?

What is the current process on design decisions and the communities ability to provide feedback?

Is there a difference of process regarding PRs that only remove a functionality?


All features/removals/etc. are posted publicly on the github where you can discuss your concerns before merging/during testmerges there. We give at least 24 hours before merging so signing in at least once a day will assure you're able to contribute to every discussion (most PRs aren't worth much talk so just a quick glance can keep you in the know).
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby carshalash » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:15 am #459380

Cobby wrote:
Was this approved as a test or is it a permanent code change?

What is the current process on design decisions and the communities ability to provide feedback?

Is there a difference of process regarding PRs that only remove a functionality?


All features/removals/etc. are posted publicly on the github where you can discuss your concerns before merging/during testmerges there. We give at least 24 hours before merging so signing in at least once a day will assure you're able to contribute to every discussion (most PRs aren't worth much talk so just a quick glance can keep you in the know).


People complaints and suggestions seemed pretty ignored during that entire fiasco to be honest.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Mark9013100 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:48 am #459397

The removal of autocloning I don't have a problem with. I DO have a problem with the removal of pre-scanning and the genetic disk features, as those required interaction with another player to utilize. I'm also sure the disks only saved UI, UE, and SE, and couldn't be used to actually clone someone, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:53 am #459399

seemed like a pretty hated change that got pushed through anyway.

The disks were kind of important and were a way to backup your DNA for cloning or for your identity if a ling changed you or something. There's no way to get the disk information now without genetics, which is kind of a pain.

Honestly I don't know why they removed functionality of the disks? Make it so you can pre-scan onto disks, which can easily be destroyed and can only be in the machine one at a time.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby confused rock » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:13 am #459415

carshalash wrote:Pretty much every other server this is has prescanning, I don't understand why it's a problem now.

Other servers having prescanning is completely unrelated to our own. if what other servers did has to be copied, then I would've brought up the massive arguments I remember CM used to have about marines prescanning themselves before dropping.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby carshalash » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:18 am #459420

confused rock wrote:
carshalash wrote:Pretty much every other server this is has prescanning, I don't understand why it's a problem now.

Other servers having prescanning is completely unrelated to our own. if what other servers did has to be copied, then I would've brought up the massive arguments I remember CM used to have about marines prescanning themselves before dropping.


I've yet to see an actual reason for these changes and the rumored 100% cloning removal besides "I don't like it." Making it easier to remove people from the round entirely is stupid.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Farquaar » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:03 am #459455

I'm a fan of the change. I've never been a fan of the quick-fix medical system.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:29 am #459480

nerfing the shit out of cloning sounds like a much better idea for a heavy RP server where people dont mind 2 hour rounds and spending 15min gluing someone back together. TG is NOT a heavy RP server. Taking out auto-cloning is enough of a nerf to cloning. There are other tweaks that could be made to change the dynamic up that could be interesting but straight removing stuff is not.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:56 am #459486

DrunkenMatey wrote:nerfing the shit out of cloning sounds like a much better idea for a heavy RP server where people dont mind 2 hour rounds and spending 15min gluing someone back together. TG is NOT a heavy RP server. Taking out auto-cloning is enough of a nerf to cloning. There are other tweaks that could be made to change the dynamic up that could be interesting but straight removing stuff is not.


That's what I'm saying. But who knows what direction we're going now.

No Cloning. Slow Movement?

What direction are we going in guys?

Now for the rest of this argument picture me talking about the slippery slope fallacy, and how it's all true and that change is bad and I am angry unironically. I'm too lazy to actually type a paragraph of me saying all this in depth but, you get the gist of what I mean.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Incomptinence » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:27 am #459534

Easy or near guaranteed cloning isn't central to a lowrp server with fast paced rounds either.

Think about it fast paced which round ends soon is the guy who is gonna pop out naked essential to the grand scheme of things other than getting some more red text?

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Actionb » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:36 am #459535

Cobby wrote:All features/removals/etc. are posted publicly on the github where you can discuss your concerns before merging/during testmerges there. We give at least 24 hours before merging so signing in at least once a day will assure you're able to contribute to every discussion (most PRs aren't worth much talk so just a quick glance can keep you in the know).


Link to that PR for reference: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/41731
12 votes up, 44 votes down. And yes, I know that it means little, the maintainers/headcoders get the final say.
But people have critiqued:
- i ded salt pr grudgecode that only barely addresses the issue through mere collateral damage
- getting cloned without gear always sucks
- you can disable genetics: the real problem is the maint cloner
- pre-scans is okay, autoprocess is the baddy: people rarely get a pre-scan anyway
- there are better and more involved solutions than just removing the code
And... nothing happened. Full merge after a pretty short test merge.

And cyberboss's final comment on the PR:
Talked it over, we're just gonna kill this sooner rather than later

By "this", does he mean that PR? Or cloning? What's the plan here? People want to know.


Also a suggestion in that PR:
Kawaii-Big-Boss wtf is that name wrote:Hell, even just making it so repeated clones have more disabilities or giving the cloner a soundloop so you can hear them running would make fighting autocloners less annoying.

I like the idea of repeated clones becoming faulty. It could be used together with Farquaars ideas.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Arianya » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:14 pm #459549

As a point of note, anyone can PR in adding back in pre-scanning (but not autocloning, I imagine). I'm not sure what oranges/Cyber's view of pre-scanning is but it's been pretty well known for a while that maintainers/headcoders will take an imperfect solution already coded that passes review to hypothetical solutions with no coding.

Autocloning itself is kind of awful for the game in general. A key point of cloning in the past was that someone either needed to recover your corpse/brain or you had to be pre-scanned, and even then it still required active involvement from someone still in the round to bring you back.

When cloning is automatic it creates a lot of issues with how the round flows, and on a meta level encourages going loud over stealthy murder. Whats the point in Jimm Dwight the traitor assistant killing his target stealthily with no one realizing if his target is going to spring wholly formed within a couple of minutes in cloning and immediately scream about who killed him? Better to go loud, kill your target and then smash/destroy cloning (which punishes everyone in the round, not just their target).

We have 3 servers all generally running rounds at the same time, so if you die in some irretrievable manner shortly into a round theres plenty of places you can go to play in the meantime. We even have discord bots with a specific command to notify you next time a new round is starting.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Actionb » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:33 pm #459553

Arianya wrote:... it's been pretty well known for a while that maintainers/headcoders will take an imperfect solution already coded that passes review to hypothetical solutions with no coding.


Saying "let's just use this until we come up with a better thing" is as bad as saying "we are just gonna leave this as is because we don't have a solution yet".
In both cases the solution lies in the future. If there was even slightest hint of a design concept, the former attitude would even be detrimental because it changes the status-quo and may, later on, obfuscate issues that actually were present.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Arianya » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:38 pm #459554

Actionb wrote:
Arianya wrote:... it's been pretty well known for a while that maintainers/headcoders will take an imperfect solution already coded that passes review to hypothetical solutions with no coding.


Saying "let's just use this until we come up with a better thing" is as bad as saying "we are just gonna leave this as is because we don't have a solution yet".
In both cases the solution lies in the future. If there was even slightest hint of a design concept, the former attitude would even be detrimental because it changes the status-quo and may, later on, obfuscate issues that actually were present.


While I literally can't speak for the codebase, in any volunteer community you have to take what you can get to some extent. While coderbus can (and has) said "this is the wrong way to do this, closed", they're not obligated to do so, especially if a change is already in line with the direction they want to move.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Actionb » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:40 pm #459555

Helpful insight. Thanks, good food for thought.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:04 pm #459557

I like the removal. The whole system felt like a 1up. I had at least one guy kill himself in perma to get cloned, and few more times of scrambling to medbay to see if killed bad guy had a backup. You could offset this change by buffing defib, making revivable state last longer.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Dr_bee » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:27 pm #459560

Auto-cloning needed to go as it caused a shitload of problems, pre-scanning really should be put back in however, it makes mass cloning a little bit easier and rewards planning and teamwork.

On another note. If cloning is going to be less prevalent combat is probably going to need a nerf as well or murderboner antags will be EVEN WORSE.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby WarbossLincoln » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:30 pm #459571

I like the idea of buffing the defib a little bit to compensate a little for the loss of auto cloning. It's good that destroying, spacing, or hiding a body will keep it dead now.
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:22 pm #459610

Here is a crazy idea...

IF the goal is to have less surprise moments of people getting cloned even though their body was spaced or hidden really well or whatever...
what about making it so that ONLY dead bodies can be scanned. Then you could keep auto-cloning and people just throw dead body in, it gets scanned and added to the queue. You get the convenience for going through large piles of corpses and you don't have the issue of people popping back into the round.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Actionb » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:34 pm #459630

DrunkenMatey wrote:Here is a crazy idea...

IF the goal is to have less surprise moments of people getting cloned even though their body was spaced or hidden really well or whatever...
what about making it so that ONLY dead bodies can be scanned. Then you could keep auto-cloning and people just throw dead body in, it gets scanned and added to the queue. You get the convenience for going through large piles of corpses and you don't have the issue of people popping back into the round.


That just makes too much sense. The coders will never go for that.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby oranges » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:18 pm #459644

When you code it
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Gamarr » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:13 am #459703

The concept of paying for cloning at first made me laugh. Then laugh harder because it's not so bad but I don't see it occurring here. It'd just take a considerable shift in the way the station works as a whole in regards to life, money/economics, and gameplay. A Transhuman station with a resleeving center, where you'd even leave yourself things for your reawakening if it happened if you were wealthy enough but that's not here, not now.
That's how it Could be done. But this NT and the reality of the gameplay is even more skewed towards life being worthless while providing little that Is worth something.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby JusticeGoat » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:26 am #459710

I think auto cloning should be raised from phasic scanners to triphasic along with a upgrade disk that is printed from R&D, maybe it can have a required machine to link with like a cloning database that the AI or traitors can screw with.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Qbopper » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:52 am #459718

rework autocloners so it's just a regular cloner but you put bodies on a conveyor belt and once it finishes cloning a body it spits it out and feeds the next one in then starts cloning that
Limey wrote:its too late.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby 4dplanner » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:45 am #459754

DrunkenMatey wrote:Here is a crazy idea...

IF the goal is to have less surprise moments of people getting cloned even though their body was spaced or hidden really well or whatever...
what about making it so that ONLY dead bodies can be scanned. Then you could keep auto-cloning and people just throw dead body in, it gets scanned and added to the queue. You get the convenience for going through large piles of corpses and you don't have the issue of people popping back into the round.


I didn't see this post until now, but that's already what my latest PR is (and unless I'm reading the times wrong, it was already there when you posted this)
Last edited by 4dplanner on Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby 4dplanner » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:46 am #459755

It is currently sitting at 100% downthumbs

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby subject217 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:11 am #459781

the cloner should be a machine locked around lategame techwebs and defibrillators should be buffed to compensate

t b q h f

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Thu Dec 06, 2018 5:53 am #459791

4dplanner wrote:
DrunkenMatey wrote:Here is a crazy idea...

IF the goal is to have less surprise moments of people getting cloned even though their body was spaced or hidden really well or whatever...
what about making it so that ONLY dead bodies can be scanned. Then you could keep auto-cloning and people just throw dead body in, it gets scanned and added to the queue. You get the convenience for going through large piles of corpses and you don't have the issue of people popping back into the round.


I didn't see this post until now, but that's already what my latest PR is (and unless I'm reading the times wrong, it was already there when you posted this)


it sort of works that way right now, but there is no auto-process or scan database. So you have to have someone there scanning them one by one and you can't scan a new one until the old on finishes. At least thats how it worked last couple of rounds just now.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby lmwevil » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:47 am #459844

subject217 wrote:the cloner should be a machine locked around lategame techwebs and defibrillators should be buffed to compensate

t b q h f

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Actionb » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:37 am #459851

4dplanners new PR: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/41820

Just to give you my understanding of what pre-scanning was meant for before autoprocess was a thing:
You go to genetics while alive, get a scan backup and can then get cloned if the unfortunate happened.
By itself that wasn't a big deal because geneticists were either off smashing walls, dead or not giving enough of a fuck. Geneticists are like velociraptors - but instead of motion they only react to cloneable corpses being present.
Once in a blue moon your ghost was suddenly sucked into the cloning tube because a merciful soul decided to go through each stored record to check if it could be cloned.
People usually did not bother getting a backup and even if they did, actually getting cloned was very rare.

This PR doesn't allow you to get scanned while alive.
And while the autoprocess is iterating through the records, it deletes every record that is linked to a living mob. So even if you (alive) somehow had a stored backup, it would just disappear when autoprocess is on.
So if your goal was to kill pre-scanning (in the sense of what I described above), then yes this achieves it.
It turns the cloner from a potential safety net into a revival factory.
The only meaningful difference between cloning and a defib (for the sake of this comparison let's assume the defib was super mega high tech and could revive anyone) was that you could have that safety net.

Allow pre-scanning of living mobs for the sake of a safety net. Allow auto-scanning of dead mobs for the sake of speed.
But don't allow auto-cloning of records. A medic/geneticist should be required to be present to press that 'clone' button.

Otherwise we may as well just ditch cloning and have the defib simply work on everything.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Mark9013100 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:34 am #459857

Actionb wrote:Allow pre-scanning of living mobs for the sake of a safety net. Allow auto-scanning of dead mobs for the sake of speed.
But don't allow auto-cloning of records. A medic/geneticist should be required to be present to press that 'clone' button.

Otherwise we may as well just ditch cloning and have the defib simply work on everything.


My thoughts exactly.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby carshalash » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:49 am #459860

This has kind of also turned Tranquility from a meme virus that you can fix as long as you back yourself up into something that can easily just remove you from the round.

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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby Lumbermancer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:35 pm #459864

subject217 wrote:the cloner should be a machine locked around lategame techwebs and defibrillators should be buffed to compensate

t b q h f


That would be a bit too much, I think. I brought the argument of murderboner before. Muderboner will murder for the boner, and ruin your fun. Removal of autoclone and prescan is good enough.
aka Schlomo Gaskin aka Guru Meditation aka Copyright Alright aka Topkek McHonk aka Le Rouge
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Re: Removal of auto cloning and pre scanning

Unread postby confused rock » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:56 pm #459881

Tranquility can only be administered by injection and can be cured by anyone with a pepper spray can, be happy you weren’t injected with cyanide.
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