Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

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donutstation
 
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Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby donutstation » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:13 am #475142

TL;DR: 50% chance to negate every attack is a terrible game design; common items need common counters, shields have none

So at the moment riot shields and teleshields give you 50% chance to negate pretty much every attack increasing your survivability roughly by 100%. That's way more than any roundstart armor in the game considering they also negate stun/stamina attacks and for most of the antags/jobs there is no reliable hard counter (reminder that "just throw an explosive lance at them" is not an argument) to someone holding a riot shield, you just have to run away or hope for the worst type of rng to work in your favor which is a terrible game design. This has became a much bigger problem with slips being turned into shit and I keep seeing certain gamers holding a riot shield at all times no matter what antag or what type of validhunter they're playing. Also, teleshields can be produced infinitely with close to no cost which is dumb for something so strong.

They're probably most cancerous on war op rounds, when the whole crew can easily get an item that reduces the effectiveness of all nuke op weapons by 50%. With a riot shield in hand you have a fairly decent chance of surviving 2 point blank buckshots to your face even with no armor. I unironically think that on nuke op rounds a 16 TC energy shield gets outclassed by a (MAT_METAL = 4000, MAT_GLASS = 4000, MAT_SILVER = 300, MAT_TITANIUM = 200) teleshield (not sure if it's intended but from what i've tested energy shields have 0 chance of blocking non energy based attacks).

Possible solutions i can see:
1. (cheap and shitty) Reduce the block chance of riot shields from 50% to something like 30% so that in case of dying to a shield gamer after landing 3 taser shots each getting blocked you should blame terrible rng rather than terrible bullshit OP item design
2. Assign a durability property to every type of shield in the game, making the shield get destroyed after absorbing enough damage so that shields stay effective against stun/stamina weapons but get a slight nerf vs ballistics/brute (currently fighting a shield user with a ballistic weapon is pure cancer, try it yourself)
3. Remove blocking melee attacks
4. Remove blocking ranged attacks
5. Make shields cover only certain bodyparts just like armors do



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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:43 am #475150

ebow used to ignore shields I think, but they don't now for whatever reason.
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PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:08 pm.
Reason: not an argument

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:08 pm.
Reason: emptyquoting doesn't make it true

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby 4dplanner » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:47 am #475157

wesoda25 wrote:Stop painting things that aren’t an issue as an issue


You should probably give an argument.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:53 am #475159

4dplanner wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:Stop painting things that aren’t an issue as an issue


You should probably give an argument.

A 50% block chance isn’t some horrific game mechanic. Nuke ops are given ridiculously OP gear, and a lot of it too. The crew isn’t supposed to be easily cut down, there is supposed to be sacrifice and good combat. Plus, you have to sacrifice a hand for the shield.

Beyond that, if on sybil or something everyone is just printing shields and drinking that stuff which increases block chance, just make non round-start shields have a lesser block chance.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby donutstation » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:12 pm #475172

wesoda25 wrote:A 50% block chance isn’t some horrific game mechanic.

In a game where getting hit once in a 1v1 usually means you die (or you get a slowdown and then die) its pretty fucking massive

wesoda25 wrote:Nuke ops are given ridiculously OP gear, and a lot of it too.

Isn't this the whole point of nuke ops. Also with economy changes and cargo being able to supply the whole crew with combat shotguns before the ops arrive without even selling ore the difference in gear is not that big. But combat shotguns unlike shields are counter-able and fun to fight against.

wesoda25 wrote:The crew isn’t supposed to be easily cut down, there is supposed to be sacrifice and good combat.

Yes, but 50% chance to negate every attack you throw at me no matter how well prepared and how good you are is kind of an opposite of good combat.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:08 pm.
Reason: emptyquoting doesn't make it true

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confused rock
 
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby confused rock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:29 pm #475178

Bruh its a fucking riot shield big as shit meant to stop greys from being as massive a faggot, maybe they shouldn’t be printable but you shouldn’t be acting like they’re unfair because they *might* stop *conventional* weapons.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:48 pm #475184

>"they don't have hard counters"
>"'but elance is a hard counter' is not an argument"

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:03 pm #475191

They're clear right? Make them not stop lasers or disablers, like windows.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby donutstation » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:20 pm #475197

You people will never understand until you run into a random shield user and die despite landing 3 perfect taser shots. Im a very i ded guy but nothing gets me nearly as tilted as losing to a lucky coin flip shield user.

WarbossLincoln wrote:They're clear right? Make them not stop lasers or disablers, like windows.

Actually...

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:57 pm #475201

donutstation wrote:
WarbossLincoln wrote:They're clear right? Make them not stop lasers or disablers, like windows.

Actually...


That is actually a cool idea and would make the already relatively weak rechargeable laser weaponry a actual tactical choice in some situations.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:17 pm #475205

They would still be useful vs ballistic weapons like ops and traitors get from their uplinks but you'd still be vulnerable to the plethora of beam weapons on station that traitors or shitters could steal.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby zxaber » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:00 pm #475210

>Nuke ops tell the station they're coming to nuke them.
>Act surprised when the crew has armed up with effective equipment.
Wew.

The idea that antags should always be better armed for combat is terrible. Traitors already have a ridiculous amount of power in their uplinks, giving non-traitors a tool to help stop mass murder isn't a bad thing. Nuke ops that use thw War ops strat should understand that it's not just a free bonus amount of credits, and that they're giving the crew time to prepare.

If you're a traitor, find alternative ways to kill your target (explosives, plasma fire, perhaps just act all buddy buddy and then stick them with a sleepy pen). If you're declaring war as an op, first perhaps consider not doing that, but second, consider using explosives. Or just buy a bunch of bee grenades, idk.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Gamarr » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:12 pm #475213

The shields should stay as long as the combat and disarm/harm intent of fist-fighting and other weapons also remain. They're one of the few ways of defending yourself and making sure an attack is blocked barring moving and dodging it.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Kel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:52 pm #475225

riot shields are one of the lesser offending RNG mechanics in the game, and if you're basing your whole argument on "rng mechanic bad" then i hope you're ready to form your crusade against:
the disarm intent
the harm intent
dual wielded firearms
sharp weapons
breakable bottles
ablative vests
RTA
radiation
explosions
various emp interactions
various chemicals
various wizard spells
blob chems

the list goes on but this is just what popped in my head for things that hinge on rng entirely as a mechanic and are entirely weaponize-able or are strictly a combat mechanic in the first place
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby D&B » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:11 pm #475229

Maybe make the riot shield slow you down since you have to deploy and brace yourself?
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby oranges » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:09 pm #475238

D&B wrote:Maybe make the riot shield slow you down since you have to deploy and brace yourself?

this + give them an overall health so they eventually break.

give them plenty of melee/brute damage resist, but make them weaker to energy weapons

should be easy enough.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:15 pm #475241

Kel wrote:riot shields are one of the lesser offending RNG mechanics in the game, and if you're basing your whole argument on "rng mechanic bad" then i hope you're ready to form your crusade against:
the disarm intent
the harm intent
dual wielded firearms
sharp weapons
breakable bottles
ablative vests
RTA
radiation
explosions
various emp interactions
various chemicals
various wizard spells
blob chems

the list goes on but this is just what popped in my head for things that hinge on rng entirely as a mechanic and are entirely weaponize-able or are strictly a combat mechanic in the first place

Anything xenobio related as well

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby donutstation » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:30 pm #475243

Kel wrote:riot shields are one of the lesser offending RNG mechanics in the game, and if you're basing your whole argument on "rng mechanic bad" then i hope you're ready to form your crusade against:
the disarm intent
the harm intent
dual wielded firearms
sharp weapons
breakable bottles
ablative vests
RTA
radiation
explosions
various emp interactions
various chemicals
various wizard spells
blob chems


not saying that rng is bad itself but since we are already there i guess i can try to explain why they all are not as bad as shields in my opinion...
the disarm intent - has reliable counters
the harm intent - has reliable counters
dual wielded firearms - has reliable counters
sharp weapons - has reliable counters
breakable bottles - has reliable counters and how are they random btw
ablative vests - unique item, has reliable counters
RTA - good example but unlike riot shield it's risky to use and a unique item
radiation - has reliable counters
explosions - risky to use or has counters (unless you meant elance which as we all agree should be removed)
various emp interactions - like doors getting shocked? eh idk, just be careful dude
various chemicals - has reliable counters
various wizard spells - 8-)
blob chems - has reliable counters

D&B wrote:Maybe make the riot shield slow you down since you have to deploy and brace yourself?

that would be an overkill i think, no one would use them unless when combined with a secway

oranges wrote:give them an overall health so they eventually break.

give them plenty of melee/brute damage resist, but make them weaker to energy weapons

should be easy enough.

gonna try this i guess

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby somerandomguy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:58 pm #475251

EXPLOSIVE LANCE

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:34 pm #475258

what oranges said but disablers and lasers should go straight through since they go through other clear objects
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Morris » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:47 pm #475263

In my experience, it’s not that riot shields themselves are too strong, it’s that they don’t exist in a vacuum. What I mean is that if I’m a member of security, and I wanna powergame as hard as possible, I’m riding a secway, carrying a riot shield, smoking a cigarette, and wearing riot armor. None of this slows me down, it makes me really hard to hit via secway and riot shield, the smoking reduces my stuns (though I think this was recently nerfed), and if you ever *do* actually stun or hit me, the combination of my sec jumpsuit and riot armor means I take a significantly reduced amount of damage. Any damage I do take causes no slowdown because I’m on the secway.

If I’m an antag and wanna become a power gaming juggernaut, I get sleeping carp, ride a secway, smoke a cigarette, and carry a riot shield. At this point you can’t use guns because carp, You’re very likely to click the secway instead of me, and if you do manage to click me with, say a stun baton, I have a 50% block chance. All of this while I’m murdering you with carp and such.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby D&B » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:21 pm #475270

Secways have no good reason to exist
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Karp » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:21 pm #475271

donutstation wrote:I unironically think that on nuke op rounds a 16 TC energy shield gets outclassed by a (MAT_METAL = 4000, MAT_GLASS = 4000, MAT_SILVER = 300, MAT_TITANIUM = 200) teleshield (not sure if it's intended but from what i've tested energy shields have 0 chance of blocking non energy based attacks).


I hate to say it but do you actually play the game or are you blogging based on numbers? Energy shields have a hardcoded always deflect against energy weapons,which is better than a block, it's their main gimmick. They cost that much because energy swords are also 16 tc but eat up two hand slots and remove any options for ranged combat. Nerfing that cost would just make ranged the objectively superior option in ops

donutstation wrote:That's way more than any roundstart armor in the game considering they also negate stun/stamina attacks and for most of the antags/jobs there is no reliable hard counter (reminder that "just throw an explosive lance at them" is not an argument) to someone holding a riot shield, you just have to run away or hope for the worst type of rng to work in your favor which is a terrible game design.


The thing about RNG in game design is that it's meant to be something you should expect or brace for, RNG helps in making a game harder to become a completley solved gearcheck vs gearcheck. If you think you can safely engage someone fully geared up with a riot shield and guns without dying you can easily risk the RNG chance and win the engagement, but if you charge someone surrounded by help and the RNG shot block fucks you over you would've lost anyways. Riot shields are a form of defense designed to be unreliable, the block every shot meme can occur but it's RNG'd as fuck and isn't any worse than embed/dismember/insta disembowl RNG chances.

War ops already can easily counter the shield with the m90's grenade launcher, the syndicate borg's grenade launcher, their mecha's teleporter+punch or rocket launcher, their bioterror kit, incindiary rounds, and their minibombs and grenade belts.

The antags that really get fucked over by shields are the ones that have to specifically focus on countering it with shit like the changeling tentacle and cryo sting/scream.

Wizards dont give a shit as they win with literally any of their powerful abilities being Fireball, magic missile, and disintegrate which all ignore shields. I'd assume locker bolt and anything that isnt the enchanted bolt rifle/arcane hand/spellblade would as well but I'm not as sure.

Traitors are really the only group that get fucked with explosives and reinforced bolas as options, but usually most of security wont fully gear up and grab riot shields to counter you.

If your issue is with the proliferation of easily accessable riot shields(teleshields in the seclate) I would agree with you, and while I genuinely believe riot shields are fine, teleshields should definately either get a mat cost increase or should be bumped towards endgame weapons technology as they completley nullify cargo having purchasable standard riot shields and they can be researched in like 3 minutes and 20 seconds due to being in the barebones basic weapons tech research tree. The silver cost is also negligable on box and meta as mining spawns with a sliver of silver to cash in and even with 0 miners you can still print a few teleshields.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby teepeepee » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:25 pm #475272

how is IED lance not an argument when it's the most efficient, although one-use, combat tool available?

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:26 pm #475273

As a note, Kor while he was the head maintainer said we could never add anything that gives you a third arm to the game because having two riot shields + a weapon would make you way too hard to kill. If we can reasonably nerf riot shields, maybe 2+ arms could be a thing.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Karp » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:39 pm #475274

PKPenguin321 wrote:As a note, Kor while he was the head maintainer said we could never add anything that gives you a third arm to the game because having two riot shields + a weapon would make you way too hard to kill. If we can reasonably nerf riot shields, maybe 2+ arms could be a thing.

I think hitreact block stacking is the dumber mechanic and it preferrably needs a max block cap or severely diminishing returns at higher levels, it in general prevents anything from going above a 50% block chance because any higher and it'd result in people having an 85%+ block chance. If you added 3 arms you would have desworders with a spare energy sword or nerfed riot shields who are completley damage immune or are 90+% damage immune running around murderboning. If you nerf DEswords triple energy swords are almost a 90% chance to block as well.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby angelstarri » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:54 pm #475278

1 item should not give you an insane advantage enough to kill 8 other people in a 3x3 room (ask imsxz)
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Vile Beggar » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:00 pm #475281

angelstarri wrote:1 item should not give you an insane advantage enough to kill 8 other people in a 3x3 room (ask imsxz)

yeah but it's imsxz, i'm pretty sure they could kill 12 people with only help intent

anyways, i think laser-weaponry going through them is a neat balance idea
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Karp » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:50 pm #475291

angelstarri wrote:1 item should not give you an insane advantage enough to kill 8 other people in a 3x3 room (ask imsxz)


That's such a buzzword phrase that encompasses half the game though

Revolution is balanced around good gear+low numbers vs weak gear+good numbers

Cult is balanced around security being able to take mobs of cultists with lower numbers as well

Otherwise you're fundamentally arguing against things like flashbangs , the taser, the ebow, the 357, the DEsword, traitor explosives and station explosives, and almost every single lethal item nuke ops get

Being disarmed by 8 other people would lower your actual chance of being disarmed after 2 disarms or being buckshotted point blank 3 times with a riotshield to such an uncommon and rare chance that it'd honestly be more entertaining and enjoyable to see that luck with probability affect the round in some way once every xth rounds than it is to not see it

The only thing I'd agree with is the laser thing but I'd have to ask what advantage energy weapons offer over ballistics to justify that realism+nerf, as energy weapons already go through windows and grilles and over sec barriers where ballistics do not, not forgetting to mention how much easier it is to get ammo for a laser weapon than it is a ballistic weapon, while all ballistic weapons really get are unique ammo types which are generally too costly for non ops. The opposite might be the better change(Strength of the bullet rips through the riot shield while lasers get deflected off of the ablative coating and melee weapons bounce off the naturally stabproof shield) though that'd nerf it against ops
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby 4dplanner » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:53 pm #475293

Yeah, don't balance around the top players

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Dr_bee » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:05 pm #475295

Karp wrote:The only thing I'd agree with is the laser thing but I'd have to ask what advantage energy weapons offer over ballistics to justify that realism+nerf, as energy weapons already go through windows and grilles and over sec barriers where ballistics do not, not forgetting to mention how much easier it is to get ammo for a laser weapon than it is a ballistic weapon, while all ballistic weapons really get are unique ammo types which are generally too costly for non ops. The opposite might be the better change(Strength of the bullet rips through the riot shield while lasers get deflected off of the ablative coating and melee weapons bounce off the naturally stabproof shield) though that'd nerf it against ops


I would argue that ballistic ammo is easier to get since the removal of inducer laser recharging.

Even with public autolathes gone, ammo is still easy to get via them, and you arent restricted by location or a 30 second recharge time.

If you think lasers are in any way better than ballistics you are wrong. AP inherent in ballistic ammo alone is broken.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Karp » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:29 pm #475300

Dr_bee wrote:
Karp wrote:The only thing I'd agree with is the laser thing but I'd have to ask what advantage energy weapons offer over ballistics to justify that realism+nerf, as energy weapons already go through windows and grilles and over sec barriers where ballistics do not, not forgetting to mention how much easier it is to get ammo for a laser weapon than it is a ballistic weapon, while all ballistic weapons really get are unique ammo types which are generally too costly for non ops. The opposite might be the better change(Strength of the bullet rips through the riot shield while lasers get deflected off of the ablative coating and melee weapons bounce off the naturally stabproof shield) though that'd nerf it against ops


I would argue that ballistic ammo is easier to get since the removal of inducer laser recharging.

Even with public autolathes gone, ammo is still easy to get via them, and you arent restricted by location or a 30 second recharge time.

If you think lasers are in any way better than ballistics you are wrong. AP inherent in ballistic ammo alone is broken.


AP is stupid because the people who reduced the damage on AP bullets for most guns didnt reduce shots to kill on literally every AP Gun so AP is just a straight upgrade if you can ever afford it

Upgraded rechargers are pretty quick but you do have to carry all of the ammo on you for ballistics, you can carry a backpack full of laser guns and no belt can really carry ammo outside of nuke op belts
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Kel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:44 am #475342

is it just as equally viable to make a thread about how underpowered riot shields are if i get pushed over while holding one
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:55 am #475396

Karp wrote:
AP is stupid because the people who reduced the damage on AP bullets for most guns didnt reduce shots to kill on literally every AP Gun so AP is just a straight upgrade if you can ever afford it

Upgraded rechargers are pretty quick but you do have to carry all of the ammo on you for ballistics, you can carry a backpack full of laser guns and no belt can really carry ammo outside of nuke op belts


The ability to carry ammo at all is a benefit, ammo is significantly smaller than entire lasers, letting you carry more ammo. Reloading on the fly is still exceedingly powerful. And armor penetration is not just in the special AP bullets, it is in regular bullets as well.

Bullet AP is on top of the fact that most armors have reduced bullet armor compared to its other armors, means that even ballistic armor might as well be wet paper against anything besides buckshot.

Also there are 4 belt options for carrying ammo. Bandoleers, shoulder holsters, fanny packs, and the multi-belt on metastation. So even then you can carry more ammo in that slot for ballistics than you could for laser guns.

Laser guns need buffs, not nerfs. They are an inferior weapon all around. Also Armor pen on ranged weapons is a shit mechanic as ranged weapons already have their own armor type. Stacking armor for ballistics is stupidly difficult, and I should know, I pull armor stacking memes all the time.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Karp » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:49 am #475410

Dr_bee wrote:The ability to carry ammo at all is a benefit, ammo is significantly smaller than entire lasers, letting you carry more ammo. Reloading on the fly is still exceedingly powerful. And armor penetration is not just in the special AP bullets, it is in regular bullets as well.

Bullet AP is on top of the fact that most armors have reduced bullet armor compared to its other armors, means that even ballistic armor might as well be wet paper against anything besides buckshot.

Also there are 4 belt options for carrying ammo. Bandoleers, shoulder holsters, fanny packs, and the multi-belt on metastation. So even then you can carry more ammo in that slot for ballistics than you could for laser guns.

Laser guns need buffs, not nerfs. They are an inferior weapon all around. Also Armor pen on ranged weapons is a shit mechanic as ranged weapons already have their own armor type. Stacking armor for ballistics is stupidly difficult, and I should know, I pull armor stacking memes all the time.


I dont think you understand what i mean on the shots to kill thing, short of station guns that have admin only AP, the lmg and 10mm lose like 3-5 damage away so it's a straight upgrade as all of them will still kill in the same number of shots. There's literally no reason to go normal except due to lacking telecrystals but that's kinda unrelated. Look below in the spoiler if you wanna see the actual damage values
Spoiler:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/blob/1b50671ca072dd646e98bee971a6d20d5c06a2de/code/modules/projectiles/projectile/bullets/pistol.dm#L19 -10mm pistol
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... lmg.dm#L26 - lmg


Fanny packs hold 4 slots, the shoulder holster has 3 slots, and the bandoliers are fair but they only really carry shotgun slugs and require the purchase of a combat shotgun crate or the looting of the bartender. My point was that you can't run around with 7+ magazines anywhere if you carry 7 ballistic weapons in your pack.

I state ballistics as inferior as you can carry 7 energy guns which TEND to be more than enough to deal with every threat, not to mention that swapping guns is far more intuative and easier than pulling out a magazine and swapping them, but I do agree ballistics tend to get stronger damage values due to being antag gear or shotguns, which kinda sucks for the carbines you can buy in cargo which tend to get lumped in. My argument for the riot shield pen is due to lasers already having so many ways of ignoring most defensive structures, a mobile one being ignored as well would be silly where ballistics already lack any form of barricade penetration. If you're scared of ballistics in ops you can build more and lower ammo capacity for being able to ignore almost everything short of walls and non glass airlocks is pretty powerful if you abuse cover

tbh this is kinda getting sidetracked but my main concern with a straight nerf is that the riot shield is the only real way to be given a chance against surprise instakills and it does add more of an element to combat than just straight "Instantly stun them and drag them away" against heavily armored targets
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Floiven » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:04 am #475412

Are the shield's blocking properties dependent on facing the direction of the attack? If so, adding a strafe button so you can back away while protecting yourself would be neat.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby angelstarri » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:45 pm #475522

Okay gamers if I get out traded one more time as a nuke op with assault gear by one slightly assisty boy with a riot shield and a stun baton I am going to lose it
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Kel » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:09 pm #475532

angelstarri wrote:Okay gamers if I get out traded one more time as a nuke op with assault gear by one slightly assisty boy with a riot shield and a stun baton I am going to lose it

if his only method of attack is melee and you're a nuke op with strong ranged weapondry have you considered not allowing him to get into melee range, using alternative weapons other than rooty tooty point and shootys, or maybe even just taking fucking adrenals so his 1 kill move doesnt work on you anymore
i'd be more concerned with being out traded by explosive lances considering nuke ops have absolutely no defense against them and it's practically guaranteed to knock you unconscious and do a fuckton of damage
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby BeeSting12 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:43 am #475943

Here's my idea to make riot shields slightly more skill based and less based on chance. They won't be the go-to weapon for every situation now, but they'd be specialized for rev rounds and situations where you need to defend one location.

1. Riot shields have limited health. Let's call it 100 for our purposes. 5 autorifle bullets or a couple .357s would destroy it. The riot shield isn't meant for defending against bullets, it's meant for riots. Melee attacks would still do damage to the shield, but 3/4 as much as anything else.
2. Riot shields block 100% of melee attacks from the front, 25% from the sides, 0% from the rear. Makes it more skill based than the flat RNG chance while still incorporating RNG.
3. Energy weapons are highly effective against riot shields- lasers, disablers, pulses, etc. go straight through it. Electrodes do not, to keep consistency with how lasers and windows behave.
4. Add the ability to brace with the riot shield. Blocks all attacks from the front, covers your whole body. However, this makes it really slow to move, and you can't turn- just move forward, strafe, and back. Bracing takes 2 seconds.
5. Teleshields carry all of the above properties, but 1.5x health and bracing takes less time. and ofc they can go in bags.
6. Add Tactical Reflective Shields: made primarily of iron with a titanium coating and glass window, they reflect energy weapons completely. As a trade off, their health is only 50- a few from an autorifle or shotgun would devastate this shield and the player behind it.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:58 am #475985

Making the Riot Shield block from the front would require a system to let people lock their characters view position to that direction. Having to spam click behind you to keep yourself guarding one area as you move around would be obnoxious.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby obscolene » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:42 am #476027

Gamarr wrote:They're one of the few ways of defending yourself and making sure an attack is blocked barring moving and dodging it.

Or, you know, instead of having half of all actions done to you completely negated just by holding a mass producible object in your hand, maybe you should instead focus on clicking the other person before they click you as the first line of defense.
sc#4622 | everybodygangstauntilnig.ga (UPDATED FREQUENTLY)

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[03:46:59]EMOTE: The Dreamweaver/(Steve Leaf) : <b>Steve Leaf</b> starts jacking lizard dick. (129,128,2)
[03:47:33]SAY: Steve Leaf/The Dreamweaver : OH FUCK IM CHOAKING (129,128,2)
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby WarbossLincoln » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:00 pm #476056

BeeSting12 wrote:Here's my idea to make riot shields slightly more skill based and less based on chance. They won't be the go-to weapon for every situation now, but they'd be specialized for rev rounds and situations where you need to defend one location.

1. Riot shields have limited health. Let's call it 100 for our purposes. 5 autorifle bullets or a couple .357s would destroy it. The riot shield isn't meant for defending against bullets, it's meant for riots. Melee attacks would still do damage to the shield, but 3/4 as much as anything else.
2. Riot shields block 100% of melee attacks from the front, 25% from the sides, 0% from the rear. Makes it more skill based than the flat RNG chance while still incorporating RNG.
3. Energy weapons are highly effective against riot shields- lasers, disablers, pulses, etc. go straight through it. Electrodes do not, to keep consistency with how lasers and windows behave.
4. Add the ability to brace with the riot shield. Blocks all attacks from the front, covers your whole body. However, this makes it really slow to move, and you can't turn- just move forward, strafe, and back. Bracing takes 2 seconds.
5. Teleshields carry all of the above properties, but 1.5x health and bracing takes less time. and ofc they can go in bags.
6. Add Tactical Reflective Shields: made primarily of iron with a titanium coating and glass window, they reflect energy weapons completely. As a trade off, their health is only 50- a few from an autorifle or shotgun would devastate this shield and the player behind it.


1. If the intent is that riot shields should not be ballistic rated glass then most bullets in the game should just go through it. Lets say in that case it's similar to auto glass IRL, laminated glass that won't shatter but isn't rated for ballistics. It would probably hold up to most handgun rounds outside of a 5.7(we have something like that don't we?). Just about any rifle round should have enough ap to go right through it.

2. I'd rather see like 75% from the front instead of 100%

3. I brought that up first here, I like the idea

4. That's a good idea. You'd be easier to flank and get behind in an open room too.

5. teleshields should be weaker because they have articulated joints. No way they'd be more durable. That's the price you pay for it being able to go into your bag.

6. Make them a powered item, and you have to turn it on. They drain a little power just being on and a chunk of it when deflecting a shot. Can recharge them in a recharger or replace a battery manually like a baton.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby nullbear » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:12 pm #476087

Rather than negate, reduce damage from energy weapons.

Maybe add a slowdown when I'm use, punishing powergaming players who carry it all the time.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby oranges » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:26 am #476147

Teleshields carry all of the above properties, but 1.5x health and bracing takes less time. and ofc they can go in bags.

1.5 TIMES?
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby angelstarri » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:37 am #476149

BeeSting12 wrote:5. Teleshields carry all of the above properties, but 1.5x health and bracing takes less time. and ofc they can go in bags.


what the fuck

shouldn't it be the complete opposite than that, be more fragile and take more time bracing for the added mobility + storage
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I strongly suspected the borgs were one humaned by the Captain because of their increasingly strange behavior throughout the round after the Captain had entered their upload and seemingly changed the laws. I had asked twice if I could blow the borgs to no response (because there was no admin online apparently). They were constantly complimenting the Captain and calling her pretty and essentially threatening people who called the Captain ugly - Pepper Oni.

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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby Davidchan » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:12 am #476258

If they were made of the same material maybe, teleshields are made of titanium. A sheet of plexiglass is not going to be as strong as a comparable sheet of steel or titanium.
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Re: Aren't riot shields a bit too strong?

Postby BeeSting12 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:31 am #476259

basing it off of the mats its made out kf so yes its stronger isk by how much
Stickymayhem wrote:you're right!

Edward Sloan, THE LAW
Melanie Flowers, Catgirl
Borgasm, Cyborg
Spoiler:
OOC: Hunterh98: to be fair sloan is one of the, if not the, most robust folks on tg

DEAD: Schlomo Gaskin says, "sloan may be a faggot but he gets the job done"

DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "YOU'RE EVERYWHERE WHERE BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING"
DEAD: Rei Ayanami says, "IT'S ALWAYS FUCKING EDWARD SLOAN"
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