Complete Mining Overhaul

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Caiggas
 
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Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:33 pm #476915

Hi, this is a thread for discussion about a mining overhaul that I am working on. Currently it is in the design stage. I am using a google doc here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xaNzlukySRDA49QSMiW3mWKSvScsjO8vCvpgUO9X3rE/edit?usp=sharing) for tracking the overall design. Replies to this thread and comments on the doc will be addressed as I have time to do so.

I do not know how much the design doc will drift from the below summary, so please consider the google doc to be the current live design iteration. My intent to completely finish designing the mechanics of the rework before I begin coding it. Once the coding is complete, I will release a draft PR for further tweaking and design. I intend to seriously consider feedback as I work on this design. I will make a serious effort to not get too invested in my own babies and refuse community feedback. Anyway, below is a summary of the overhaul, and the full details are in the linked doc.

EDIT: The entire introduction has been cleaned up, made more readable, revised where needed, and in general, the below preview is no longer accurate. Not sure if I should edit this post directly, as it will make replies seem nonsensical. Quite a bit has been changed due to input in the last few days. I think what I will do is write a *new introduction* every few days and mark which post is the current iteration. Or you could just ignore anything in this particular entry below this text. The CURRENT iteration is always the google doc linked above.

_________________________________________________
Why do I want to overhaul mining?
I believe that mining is fundamentally broken in its current state. I will explain below.

State of current mining:
The station needs materials. Miners are extrinsically motivated to mine in order to get mining points and get RND to unlock better gear. Mining itself is actually boring as fuck. To counter this boredom, miners are given extremely fast and effective mining tools to motivate them to get that part of their job done and over with so they can get good gear and go do what they actually want: exploring/monster fighting.
__________________________________________________
Issues with this state:
[*]-- From a game design standpoint, extrinsic motivation is to be avoided if possible, in favor of intrinsic motivation. Every single action should, ideally, be fun in and of its own self. This isn't easy or maybe even possible to fully do, but it is the goal. In the context of mining, the act of mining itself needs to be satisfying.
[*]-- Extremely fast mining tools are the result of power creep and are a bad fix for a fundamentally broken problem: Mining is boring and we want to get it done as fast as possible. The obvious example is the plasma cutter. It is not fundamentally more fun to walk in a straight line and fire to one side, then vacuum up the drops, than it is mine with a pick. It is just way the fuck faster. Fast mining tools were implemented as a solution for mining being way to slow and having to slog through 20-30 minutes of clicking rocks until you had money and equipment for the really fun stuff: exploration.
[*]-- Some miners even skip mining altogether because they are robust enough/foolish enough to start exploring right away. This results in the station not getting needed materials because either all the miners died trying to adventure, all the miners died because adventuring miners kited back a megafauna, all the miners are alive but are too busy grinding gear.
[*]-- Sometimes miners don’t even care about adventuring, but miner gear is designed for surviving a hell planet, and is therefore super powerful against station personnel. Mine-tiders with wall-breaking tools, 80% melee damage resist armor, super heal pens, spacesuits, heavy damage weapons, and god items fuck over the rest of the station. Some of this is addressed with PKAs having reduced damage in atmos and similar tweaks, but altogether a fully kitted out miner is dramatically dangerous. This is by far not the only department with this issue, but that is beyond the scope of this document.
[*] -- Arms race power creep between miner gear, loot drops, and lavaland danger has made the entire situation extremely unstable. Due to minor variations in RNG, player skill, and station staffing, some rounds all the miners die in 5 minutes and are never heard from again, some rounds the miners do well and everything goes smoothly, and some rounds miners with meme gear overrun the station in 10-20 minutes.
_______________________________________________
Proposed fixes for the issues: Credit to discord user Mey Ha Zah for many parts of these ideas.

Multiple jobs which use lavaland for different purposes. Full writeups are in google doc.

[*] -- Mining Technicians, whose sole job and responsibility is to operate heavy mining equipment and provide the station with materials. THIS IS NOT ANALOGOUS WITH CURRENT MINERS, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAMEPLAY. The playstyle will appeal to engineering types. See full section elsewhere in this document.

[*] -- Explorers, whose job is to explore lavaland and procure artifacts from ruins, mob drops, and archeology. THIS ROLE WILL BE CLOSEST TO CURRENT MINING. Will appeal to those who like exploring space, lavaland, fighting mobs, ect.

[*] -- Curator, Head of the explorers. Takes artifacts and analyzes, cleans, repairs, determines how they will be distributed. There will be artifacts which will be good for RND to take and research, holy relics for the chaplain, things to display in the library/museum, niche equipment for various roles, lore shit, ect. THIS WILL EXPAND THE CURRENT CURATOR FROM A GLORIFIED LARPING LIBRARIAN TO A REAL ROLE. Will appeal to rpers and people who like playing explorer.


[*] -- Mining tools will be completely reworked from the ground up. Equipment will be less about straight up armor and weaponry, and more about utility items and strategic play. Emphasis on less station griefability and better balance against other players.
[*] -- Explorers will be a moderately combat-oriented role, so they WILL need weapons and armor, but I will take pains to make them useful against fauna while also being counterable by players.
[*] -- The actual mechanics of obtaining ore will be completely reworked. No more ore in walls. Some artifacts will be wall-minable
[*] -- Lavaland hazards will be moderately rebalanced, and maybe there will be other mining/exploring z-level maps which can be rotated out with different themes. This will reduce the need for heavy armor, strong weapons, and ling-level healing items.
[*] -- Mobs will need a bit of rework, but probably not much. I want to encourage explorers working together, but not absolutely require it. Megafauna though arguably should require teamwork. Miners may want explorers to clear out fauna from high yield mining areas. (Have a look at the miner rework before you reeeee on this.)


There are considerably more details in the doc. Here is another link to it:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xaNzlukySRDA49QSMiW3mWKSvScsjO8vCvpgUO9X3rE/edit?usp=sharing

Thank you all for any feedback or ideas you have. Have a nice day!
Last edited by Caiggas on Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.



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MisterPerson
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby MisterPerson » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:35 pm #476942

Operating the drill sounds wildly unfun. You have to trial-and-error a meaningless number (old old genetics), bang it with a tool you spawn with (old botany), and feed it resources you have an abundance of (manual xenobio, filling engineering's collectors, wiring the solars, etc). Oh and you're surrounded by enemies without a weapon to defend yourself. Imagine playing Payday 2 and you can operate the drill... and do nothing else. Not even shoot a gun. It's not fun to be useless. At least give them a shitty pistol or something. Or don't try to make it two jobs because fundamentally speaking, operating the drill isn't going to be fun on its own.

I do like the idea of having a drill you need to defend though. So have it just drill into chambers full of loot and enemies with the last one being a boss and really good loot. Make sure the drill is the only way into those chambers too. The explorers are forced to stick together near the drill, which is good, but they're also forced to do some basic progression instead of just diving straight to the boss and dying.

Unrelated to this idea specifically, for the life of me, I never could figure out why in the original implementation, WJohnson was so adamant about on-station guns being useless on mining and vice versa. Nobody murderbones with a laser gun, and it's a GOOD thing if security gives you guns to help fight mining monsters, not a bad thing. But like even if the KPA did full damage on the station, it would still suck. So why nerf it?
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums. I haven't played in like 2 years so don't listen to my suggestions.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Caiggas
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:02 am #476984

So, I know I haven't really fleshed out the exact interface for operating a drill, but old genetics isn't even what I had in mind. Literally none of this will be random guesswork. I will go and finish fleshing it out if I have time, but reset assured I will strive to not make it a boring interface. This is a big priority for me. I want the mining technician role to appeal to engineering types. Complex deep mechanics with a functional baseline for new players, but heavily rewarding investigation of the mechanics. Think like how you can plug in a few canisters and technically run the station engine, but really tweaking it can result in some powerful designs. Honestly I am not fully sure of what this will entail yet.

As for weapons. I stated it here and in the document. NEW MINERS ARE NOT ANALOGOUS TO CURRENT MINERS! Explorers will be much like the current miner role. Mining techs will be a technical autism role, not a combat role. If necessary, they will have turrets which can be used to defend the drill, and I will tweak the necessary numbers to make sure that the drill can be run viably with nothing but turret defense. Additionally, its an aggro radius and doesn't magic spawn mobs. So once mobs are cleared out, they are no longer an issue. Hand in hand with this, Explorers will have a heavy motivation to kill mobs. They are the pseudo-military role. They may even want to work with the miners to intentionally run the drill hard to aggro mobs and draw them into a killbox. If you are one of the rare people that actually enjoys "click rock, get loot" gameplay, some of the explorer artifacts will be unearthed this way. Explorers primary job is to get artifacts, and they will get them from mob drops, ruin/tomb loot, tendrils, and literally digging them out of the rock walls JUST LIKE CURRENT MINING.

As for your second paragraph, I kind of like that idea, but not for mining at all. Basically a tomb breacher. Purely an explorer tool. Could also be useful for digging tunnels TO the tombs/ruins.

Third Paragraph. Pure guns to non-sec is bad. Especially if they are designed to have lots/infinite ammo. Have you never played a spawn guns wizard round? No one uses laser rifles for murderbone because their only good for a few kills and murderboneing doesn't work well when your tied to a recharger. And a vacuum damage PKA, especially with mods, its actually pretty good. Even with pressure nerf, its like a ranged punch before upgrades. Now, a lot of the station gets powerful gear by round end, so it doesn't matter if by 20-30 minutes Explorers are legit powerful on station, because so is everyone else.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby 4dplanner » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:55 am #476995

MisterPerson wrote:But like even if the KPA did full damage on the station, it would still suck. So why nerf it?


uh oh

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby 4dplanner » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:56 am #476996

Full damage KPA on station would mean a dualwielder with damage mods could instacrit anyone not wearing a bomb suit, more explicitly. 140 damage in an instant, if short-range, burst.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:21 am #477001

4dplanner wrote:Full damage KPA on station would mean a dualwielder with damage mods could instacrit anyone not wearing a bomb suit, more explicitly. 140 damage in an instant, if short-range, burst.


Hooo boy, imagine being a janitor just minding your business when the miner you slipped 3 times last shift comes around the corner wearing the bloody dripping hides of giant death crabs and duel-wielding glorified aircannons.

"Oh, hi Frank! Watch your step, the floor is sli-- BANG!

Then you sit there looking at your sideways avatar as the miner glances at you and obliterates the "wet floor" sign you pointed at every time he slipped.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby zxaber » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:43 am #477019

MisterPerson wrote:Operating the drill sounds wildly unfun. You have to trial-and-error a meaningless number (old old genetics), bang it with a tool you spawn with (old botany), and feed it resources you have an abundance of (manual xenobio, filling engineering's collectors, wiring the solars, etc). Oh and you're surrounded by enemies without a weapon to defend yourself. Imagine playing Payday 2 and you can operate the drill... and do nothing else. Not even shoot a gun. It's not fun to be useless. At least give them a shitty pistol or something. Or don't try to make it two jobs because fundamentally speaking, operating the drill isn't going to be fun on its own.

I dunno, presumably you're operating more than one drill at once; my understanding is that once the ore resource node is found, you place the drill and it generates ore until the node is used up. So you'd be bouncing between a few, checking on boxes, checking on turrets, perhaps making tweaks as needed. It sounds a lot like factorio multiplayer, where you might have someone else keeping the aliens at bay while you do the resource thing. Sounds fun to me, anyway.

Something I've been meaning to ask, but I didn't really know where to put it in the doc;
What becomes of mining borgs/mechs? Is it to be of an era gone-by? If the station is without miners, currently, someone can take a mech down and get a good load. It's not the same as if dedicated miners were working all shift, but it's better than nothing. With this new system, if no one is available (or willing) to do the drill maintenance thing, does the station just not get mats? Is there a way we could incorporate the classic mining as a slower-but-valid resource collection method?
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Karp » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:04 am #477022

what will you do to avoid falling into this hole? Before errorage's site went down the stats that kor linked showed that post lavaland ores mined and processed for the station went up by a very large margin.

Surprisingly, an engaging and challenging role attracts people to continually play miner and they also end up gathering more ores than asteroid miners. Obtaining materials is not an issue, if your concern is with the strength of said equipment why not address it directly instead of breaking the jobrole up? What lavaland equipment causes concern within you and why?

If mining ores is such a menial and boring task, do you believe that powercreeping that feature is not worth it, similar to xenobiology having slime processors instead of manually having to do surgery on them?

Changes to ore mining to make it overall more enjoyable sounds nice and enjoyable and something I might get behind. My main concern lies within making menial task for a new or old job for the sake of it being a menial task that anyone can do because of a fear of people not being able to mine safely on lavaland anymore thanks to megafauna is a terrible idea because it's already been disproven and is quantifiably incorrect

Breaking up mining into fauna hunter and ore miner will only result in less ores being mined and more complaints of "Haha miners didnt do anything AGAIN this round"

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Mey Ha Zah » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:15 am #477023

zxaber wrote:hat becomes of mining borgs/mechs? Is it to be of an era gone-by? If the station is without miners, currently, someone can take a mech down and get a good load. It's not the same as if dedicated miners were working all shift, but it's better than nothing. With this new system, if no one is available (or willing) to do the drill maintenance thing, does the station just not get mats? Is there a way we could incorporate the classic mining as a slower-but-valid resource collection method?


Hand Pickaxes and hand drills can mine the veins, just at a Much slower rate then the Big industrial drill. A mech can operate as well defended mobile drill base, so long as you enjoy standing still drilling an ore vein.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:33 am #477034

(Edited for formatting)

Karp, thank you for your reply, and especially thank you for posting data. Hard numbers make discussion much more concrete. Regarding addressing equipment directly, ironically, that was my original intent. Near the bottom of my doc is a red highlighted area separated from the rest of the doc. That was my original idea, and all it covered was a mining tool rework. After feedback for several days from several people, including Mey Ha Zah, this expanded into a larger total mining rework.

I have pretty thoroughly worked over why the current mining is bad, but I will re-summarize(Yeah, this wasn't a summary. Sorry.) here.

Pre-Lavaland mining was problematic due to it being boring. We had trouble getting people to even mine at all consistently.

Lavaland was designed because it made the job more fun. You could find all these ruins and fight monsters and it was/is amazing. Mining rates went way up. Your data shows this.

Trouble is, mining itself never changed. Mining is literally still "click rock get ore".
The extra fun came from the exploration/combat/rougelike stuff tacked on to mining. You were motivated to mine because its rewards allow you to more easily progress through the rougelike. This causes mining to be extrinsically motivated for most players.

This is fundamentally bad game design. (For reasons why, look up Extra Credits or GDC videos on Extrinsic VS Intrinsic motivation in games.)

The result was that tools were made for fast hyperefficient mining so that it could be completed quickly and the miners could get onto the other content. Furthermore, many miners do the bare minimum mining to make feasible doing the rougelike content. Additionally, very rarely does a miner continue mining after they have unlocked or bought whatever gear they were wanting.
All of this indicates that mining is not the engaging part of the content.

THIS IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO FIX.

We CAN make mining fundamentally intrinsically engaging.

We do not have to remove the rougelike game to do it. The players who are playing miner to get access to the rougelike can still do so through explorers. Additionally, the few players who actually like "click rock get loot" gameplay can still do so through archaeology!

We can have our cake and eat it too!
Sidenote, we can also expand curators from an rp thing into a real job.

I was inspired by engineering's changes over the last 2 years and discussion with Mey Ha Zah to rework the ore gathering role into Mining Technicians. They will play a lot like current engineers.

Old engineering used to be so boring that frequently the engine was never set up. Today we have multiple engines setup anywhere someone can fire one up every third round, because people enjoy messing with it's mechanics. It's so engaging that it's rare to see less than 2 techs trying their damnest to minmax it every shift. I want this to be mining. Drill operation could be this amazing deep mechanic integrating multiple systems and taking skill and understanding to really harness it's potential. I'm working on that, because I don't yet know what that looks like.

The current rougelike can be expanded through having real goals other than personal self empowerment. Relics with interesting mechanics cause memorable interactions which creates stories. I'm not talking about a ruin with a 25 brute damage sword and a suit of nar-sie armor. I'm talking about weird or quirky shit, or lore stuff, or maybe a sword, I haven't got there yet. Look at dnd minor magical items for my inspirations.

A lot of this is still being worked out, and some of it I'm only realizing as I'm typing it right now. I am talking about it here because I'm only one human with one viewpoint, and so many of you have great ideas or thoughts that would never occur to me.

Note I am not trying to take away what people like about lavaland. That gameplay ought to still be there.

Thank you for your input, it really helped me vocalize a lot of stuff. Also, sorry if my formatting is garbage. I typed this in bed on my phone. I'll clean it later. Cleaned up now, hopefully it is more readable.
Last edited by Caiggas on Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:43 am #477035

Mey Ha Zah wrote:
zxaber wrote:hat becomes of mining borgs/mechs? Is it to be of an era gone-by? If the station is without miners, currently, someone can take a mech down and get a good load. It's not the same as if dedicated miners were working all shift, but it's better than nothing. With this new system, if no one is available (or willing) to do the drill maintenance thing, does the station just not get mats? Is there a way we could incorporate the classic mining as a slower-but-valid resource collection method?


Hand Pickaxes and hand drills can mine the veins, just at a Much slower rate then the Big industrial drill. A mech can operate as well defended mobile drill base, so long as you enjoy standing still drilling an ore vein.


Not sure about borgs. Mechs will probably be part of the explorer meta. I'll think about borgs overnight, but tentatively, engiborgs would run a drill just fine.

EDIT: Alright, after talking to you on discord I decided to rewrite this comment to actually answer your questions for future readers.

Dedicated mining Mechs and Borgs: I don't see a good place for them in my current rework. In its current state, they would be cut altogether.

Engiborgs could setup and run drills just fine, as none of the steps require special tools that engiborgs do not have. They would probably need help upgrading the drills though, unless there's a borg with a part replacer?

Mediborgs would be useful for aiding explorers. More durable than organic medical personnel.

Combat Mechs like Durands and such would be useful for explorers.

Firefighter Riplys for digging to the tombs, but that is kind of niche.

As a further clarification, and I intend to clarify this in the doc too. Drills can be setup in a basic standard config that works okay and gets materials and has a small aggro radius. Small enough to kill the 2-3 mobs it draws and abandon it (Or just setup a turret there). Drills do not HAVE to be manned necessarily, its just that the drill will be much more efficient with an operator tweaking its settings for various rock layers. Maybe there could even be a late RND upgrade for some kind of smart chip that causes the drill to self tweak in a limited capacity. Anyway, without a dedicated miner the station isn't going to be swimming in resources, but they could get a steady trickle. This will be tweaked to be enough to do research and frugal lathing.

Furthur tying into this is the idea that there could be a single low-yield ore vein pre-identified and fenced off right next to the mining outpost. The idea being that before dropping the mining habitat, nanotrasen found a good starting spot from orbit. This allows for fixing 3 issues.

1: New miners will have a vein to practice on.
2: A trickle of materials can be started within the first 2 minutes of a round, so the station isn't waiting for 10 minutes as the miners are prospecting before they get any materials.
3: If there are no miners, a cargo tech or a borg can set up one drill real quick and leave it be for that basic trickle.
Last edited by Caiggas on Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Daxxed » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:51 pm #477234

This reminds me of those people looking to start a business by writing a super detailed 50 page business plan but have yet to clock one hour of physical labor in the specific branch.

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Caiggas
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:33 pm #477269

Daxxed wrote:This reminds me of those people looking to start a business by writing a super detailed 50 page business plan but have yet to clock one hour of physical labor in the specific branch.


I'm not sure if this was supposed to be a useful statement? Do you not plan large projects before working on them? That's where this is right now.

1. If you're implying that I'm just talking ideas and will abandon this as soon as real work starts, well... That's kinda unfounded.
2. If you are implying that I lack understanding of what I am working on, I would admit to limited understanding. No one has an omnicient viewpoint. That is why I am starting this discussion. Already, the design has undergone 2 major revisions, and it's about to do another. There is no shame in requesting advice from others to cover your blind spots.
3. If I misunderstood the point of your post, please enlighten me at your convenience.
4. If you were just shitposting, please don't waste the threadspace here. Thank you for clarifying, I apologize for my misunderstanding.

Thank you for your input.

(edited for formatting)
Last edited by Caiggas on Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Daxxed » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:52 pm #477285

I would love to write a paragraph going in depth about every idea you brought up but I am not a good thinker and an even worse writer.
For now I'll just respond to the 4 points you brought up to clarify the meaning of my post.

1.That's exactly what this is right now. A lot of ambitious ideas but with no work done or something to show for the hours you put into it already.
Perhaps develop and present the interesting drill that will magically make people want to gather ores for no reward whatsoever.
2.Some of your statements make it very obvious and a quick scan through the BYOND stats page showed me you have not killed a single megafauna, yet.
Maybe ask regular miners for their input on this idea ? ( humble brag for context : I am rank 5 on the stats page and probably would have been rank 2 or even beat imsxz if I wasn't observing 90% of my time online )
3.It would be a shame if my shitpost got deleted so I better, right :|
4.See point 3.

Some points from your original post:
#Mining is not fun, miners only mine because the QoL upgrades are worth it and they need money for meds.
Because the upgrades are worth it, miners deliver materials. If the lathe didn't require mats and the vendor was free you wouldn't see a single piece of ore delivered all shift.
Imagine if xenobio had to replace every power cell with a yellow core and deliver adamantine to cargo before it even got to use the extracts themselves.
This balance of having to put effort in for the station and not just personal gain is what makes miners deliver ore and it's a good thing.

#Mining is boring
I enjoy keeping track of what ore I have during the earlygame to ensure a bit of each is delivered and it legitimately makes me happy if I find a bunch of diamond early on even though I only need like 3 ore to have enough for my own personal needs. ( Sonic Jackhammer + Bag of Holding )
I love clearing a huge area for a megafauna fight and looting all the ore, not because I need the points but because it's still satisfying after all those hours and you can never have enough materials.
Agreed if I didn't have to clear the area for a fight, it probably wouldn't happen.

#Some miners even skip mining altogether
Ofcourse there are people who just hunt fauna and then claim upgrades when another good guy miner has delivered ores, but those are the exception.
Usually they end up dieing anyway but that doesn't matter as they wouldn't have delivered anything in the first place.

#Sometimes miners don’t even care about adventuring, but miner gear is designed for surviving a hell planet
People who don't go mining and immediately swap the black gloves for insuls and start tiding should be banned from shaft miner. Contradictory statement you make though as then they wouldn't have all those fancy things you speak of.
-Wall breaking tools :
I assume you mean the sonic jackhammer, which needs quite a few diamonds. This is not an issue with mining but rather cargo and the security of the lathe. I've seen them used more on station by other roles who know of their existance than actual miners.
-80% Melee resistance armor :
Doesn't exist, best you're gonna get is a drake/heck/champ/inquisitor suit + sec jumpsuit with a codpiece on which still isn't 80%. Forget about roundstart without exploring
-Super heal pens :
Miners only spawn with one and they can't be spammed. Even just using like 4-5 in a few minutes during a fauna/blob or whatever fight will start to overdose you on a bunch of stuff
-Spacesuits :
The mining hardsuit is hilariously weak and it slows you down, haven't bought one in ages. Would break into EVA instead. The "overpowered" fireproof speedy suits you have to be extremely lucky to find ( I believe it's around 5% chance per tendril to receive one )
-Heavy damage weapons :
PKA does less than 10 damage in a pressurized space, the knife 10. Again, not without exploring and ALOT of luck. ( Implying the only "heavy damage" loot from tendrils is meat hook and katana thats a 5% chance too, because let's be honest nobody is using those other gimmick weapons )
Other weapons are deserved :
Drake's loot is mostly gimmicks and mediocre at best like fireball which is just one free kill but it better ends the round or you get bwoink
Cleaving saw is a joke against carbons
Spellblade is so fucking rare you should get an antag token with it ( context I've killed 15 bubblegums since the buff and have not received one :cry: )
Staff of storms is only useful when you're a traitor
The only overpowered weapon which requires too little effort is perhaps the hierophant staff which spawns guaranteed every shift with a fat 30 damage melee ( 15 brute 15 burn ) on no armour and the ability to attack from range with sleeping carp or teleport megafauna, the fight could be made a bit tougher.

#Due to minor variations in RNG, player skill, and station staffing
This applies to any department. Not every player and every round is the same.
Mining : Either no ores or they wipe the station in 20 minutes.
Cargo : You can't even get a pizza crate to save your life or they have 10x as much guns as the armoury only 10 minutes in.
Science : No mining research an hour into the shift, or Cuban Pete going chicky chicky boom at the 3 minute mark
And the list goes on, the thing is TG players don't need anything to murderbone but a license to.
All the fancy tools just make it more fun, not even easier because we all know stun combat is still most efficient if you want to be safe and keep it clean, albeit boring which is why we have all these toys and other stuff, if the nerfs keep coming soon the most robust tools will be :peel: and :toolbox:

#On topic of the new role distribution
Curators who like to fuck off into space are really just assistants too lazy to break into EVA for a suit.
I really like your idea of a curator as some sort of old veteran miner too rusty for the job ( or bored because bad orange man nerfs :D ) who would teach the young miners all the tricks to lavaland.
The new "miners" would probably be a dead role unless you really make the drills interesting enough, best case scenario people roll it because Explorer slots are taken and now you have 6 people with "heavy damage weapons" fucking around.

I don't mind change but when you try to justify it with bad arguments I can't help it.
Sorry about the shitpost, and the wall of text which I made anyway 8-)

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Caiggas
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:18 pm #477289

Daxxed, thank you for your response.
I am currently revising the google doc to clean it up and update with new designs, and I may have to log later because real life and family; however, I do intend to respond to you asap.
Please do not apologize about your criticism, by the way. Some of your points are valid and I would like to address those. Those that I do not agree with, I will also explain my side. Additionally, I do not believe that strong emotion has any place in a good discussion, so understand that I am nearly impossible to offend in this format. Also, I do not believe in censorship except in the case of it violating forum rules or being massively detrimental to the conversation.
I understand that I have a limited set of experience, and I am not afraid to kill my babies in favor of better ideas (Look at the end of the doc for my original idea compared to the current one. That is the result with a very good discussion with Mey Ha Zah.)

Again, thank you, and I look forward to continuing this discussion.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Kryson » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:41 pm #477291

Daxxed wrote: the knife 10.


The survival knife has force 15 and modified embed properties. (Poor chef)

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Daxxed » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:19 am #477322

Kryson wrote:
Daxxed wrote: the knife 10.


The survival knife has force 15 and modified embed properties. (Poor chef)


True and turns out 80% melee resist is indeed possible but most weapons just have some form of armor pen.
Everyone knows you stun and cuff a miner or use bullets, even a laser will probably run out before they go crit


@Caiggas I will read the doc when I have some spare time, maybe we can share some more thoughts on discord later.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Mey Ha Zah » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:22 am #477325

Hey Daxxed, lay off Caiggas a bit.

First of all, the drill concept wasn't his to start with, it was mine, and if anyone on the server who knows me, I powergame a lot of mining. I started rethinking lavaland a whole year ago, and even talked to several former headmins and coders about it, and the drill was discussed a lot, but never implemented due to the fact I am not a coder nor could I hire any coders for the sheer amount of work that would need to go into basically re-designing a whole aspect of the game. Yes right now its mostly concept, but concept is where everything starts.

Also, I have slaughtered every Megafauna. Bubblegum was my favorite before his buff (Still working on learning him). And I know tricks that many other players don't that I keep to myself, most of which are going to be nerfed into oblivion because of how broken they are. They only aren't because not many people actually bother to read code and understand things and test and test and test.

Also, the HECK suit, you must have at one point enjoyed that beautiful suit of armor. I'm the person who sprited and originally concepted the idea, before working with and talking to XDTM about it, when he was able to turn it into a reality. Point is, I love mining, it's getting boring, lets fix it.

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Caiggas
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:23 pm #477365

This is a reply to Daxxed. I will try and go through and address each of your statements in turn. I will quote a bit, and address the quoted bit. I will try and cover the whole reply, but if I miss something you would like me to address, please feel free to call me out on it. Additionally, I will try and get this formatted nicely, but I apologize of it starts as atrocious. I am not super comfortable yet with these old style forums.

Spoiler:
I would love to write a paragraph going in depth about every idea you brought up but I am not a good thinker and an even worse writer.
For now I'll just respond to the 4 points you brought up to clarify the meaning of my post.


Don't be so hard on yourself. At first I was skeptical because I was sure you were shitposting, but you've done a good job of rectifying that impression. Thank you for following up, by the way.

Spoiler:
1.That's exactly what this is right now. A lot of ambitious ideas but with no work done or something to show for the hours you put into it already.
Perhaps develop and present the interesting drill that will magically make people want to gather ores for no reward whatsoever.


Yes, this is currently a early iteration design document. This is how Game Design is done. This is analogous to how you blueprint a house before building it, or design something in drafting software before manufacturing it. I don't want to waste time iterating code because the entire design changes. I am working on the drill design, btw. It is not complete.
As for magically making players want to collect ores for no reward. This already occurs for different tasks in different departments. My favorite example is engineering. Engineers set up and tweak the engine for little to no reward. This is fundamentally the difference between Intrinsic and Extrinsic motivation. I am not going to go into what that means, but if you want to know more, look up the Extra Credits and GDC videos on youtube regarding Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic motivation in games. Both forms of motivation DO WORK. Intrinsic motivation is fundamentally more engaging, more effective, and more "fun". For these reasons it is commonly accepted in game design circles to be the more desirable form of motivation to use in games.

Spoiler:
2.Some of your statements make it very obvious and a quick scan through the BYOND stats page showed me you have not killed a single megafauna, yet.
Maybe ask regular miners for their input on this idea ? ( humble brag for context : I am rank 5 on the stats page and probably would have been rank 2 or even beat imsxz if I wasn't observing 90% of my time online )


My not killing any megafauna is not relevant to this discussion, and I will explain why.
[*]I am not going to overhaul megafauna, unless people with vastly more experience give good reasons why I should. I am simply not qualified of the reason you mentioned.
[*]I am overhauling MINING. The roguelike game will still be there under a different tole. This is also the most fuzzy part of my current document, due to my personal lack of experience. I do not want to take away a part of the game that people enjoy. I am asking for peoples thoughts for a reason.
[*]If you were implying that my lack of megafauna kills shows I don't play miner. That is simply wrong. Are there stats I can link showing played roles? If there are I would be glad to show my played roles. I don't know exact numbers, but I play miner a LOT, especially recently.
I simply don't play much of the roguelike part, because the first few times I died early on and never got found. I don't find it fun to "practice" fighting megafauna by playing five minutes, dieing, watching others play for 45 minutes, and trying again. I gave up on it after a few megafauna deaths. Now I just run away.

As for asking a miner for input.
[*]I AM a miner. I am not really an adventurer.
[*]I am asking for input, from anyone. Miners are most likely to be interested by this topic anyway.
[*]Early on I GOT input from a regular miner. Mey Ha Zah. In fact, I completely scrapped my original idea and rewrote if from the ground up after his input. As mentioned before, you can find the original material at the bottom of the current doc. I see he also responded to you as well.

Spoiler:
3.It would be a shame if my shitpost got deleted so I better, right :|
4.See point 3.


I don't play the censorship game. Even if it had been a shitpost, it was on topic, not spammy, and didn't break forum rules. I appreciate you clarifying though.

Spoiler:
#Mining is not fun, miners only mine because the QoL upgrades are worth it and they need money for meds.
Because the upgrades are worth it, miners deliver materials. If the lathe didn't require mats and the vendor was free you wouldn't see a single piece of ore delivered all shift.
Imagine if xenobio had to replace every power cell with a yellow core and deliver adamantine to cargo before it even got to use the extracts themselves.
This balance of having to put effort in for the station and not just personal gain is what makes miners deliver ore and it's a good thing.


This points back to the extrinsic vs intrinsic argument. Motivating by GAIN or LOSS is not engaging. Instead motivate by making the mechanic ITSELF engaging. To bring up a department that does this well again, look at engineering and engine setup/operation.

Mining as it is DOES WORK. But it isn't inherently FUN, and THAT IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO FIX.

Spoiler:
#Mining is boring
I enjoy keeping track of what ore I have during the earlygame to ensure a bit of each is delivered and it legitimately makes me happy if I find a bunch of diamond early on even though I only need like 3 ore to have enough for my own personal needs. ( Sonic Jackhammer + Bag of Holding )
I love clearing a huge area for a megafauna fight and looting all the ore, not because I need the points but because it's still satisfying after all those hours and you can never have enough materials.
Agreed if I didn't have to clear the area for a fight, it probably wouldn't happen.


Congratulations, you are one of the people that enjoy "click rock, get ore" gameplay. It DOES provide a little bit of intrinsic motivation for most people. Some people also legit enjoy it. However most people find it boring after a few minutes, and I can support that argument:
[*] Low miner staffing pre-lavaland update. This is provable with server logs.
[*] Most miners stop mining after getting the gear they want. There are exceptions to this, but it is rare. I don't think anyone will seriously argue that this is incorrect.
[*] Minimum time spent mining at gulag, to the point that the current meta is to risk burning to death in lava to escape rather than mine for 10 minutes. To be fair, this may simply be a bad point, as many of the gulaged are not wanting to play mining that round, many want to keep shittering, some are antags, and some just don't play mining at all

Spoiler:
#Some miners even skip mining altogether
Ofcourse there are people who just hunt fauna and then claim upgrades when another good guy miner has delivered ores, but those are the exception.
Usually they end up dieing anyway but that doesn't matter as they wouldn't have delivered anything in the first place.


I don't think we disagree here? I mean, you just reiterated what I said. And yes, they are the exception, hence the "some".
However it DOES matter. If possible we want the players rolling miner to PLAY MINER. That is part of why my current design takes most exploring tools away from miners and makes it a different role altogether. Those people will play Explorer.
The NEW mining role will probably not be played by current miners. It will probably be played by current engineers/autism fort builders. The explorer role will be very similar to the current miner role but not require mining. I am still working out how to make the roguelike gameplay provide useful impact to the station.

Spoiler:
#Sometimes miners don’t even care about adventuring, but miner gear is designed for surviving a hell planet
People who don't go mining and immediately swap the black gloves for insuls and start tiding should be banned from shaft miner. Contradictory statement you make though as then they wouldn't have all those fancy things you speak of.
-Wall breaking tools :
I assume you mean the sonic jackhammer, which needs quite a few diamonds. This is not an issue with mining but rather cargo and the security of the lathe. I've seen them used more on station by other roles who know of their existance than actual miners.
-80% Melee resistance armor :
Doesn't exist, best you're gonna get is a drake/heck/champ/inquisitor suit + sec jumpsuit with a codpiece on which still isn't 80%. Forget about roundstart without exploring
-Super heal pens :
Miners only spawn with one and they can't be spammed. Even just using like 4-5 in a few minutes during a fauna/blob or whatever fight will start to overdose you on a bunch of stuff
-Spacesuits :
The mining hardsuit is hilariously weak and it slows you down, haven't bought one in ages. Would break into EVA instead. The "overpowered" fireproof speedy suits you have to be extremely lucky to find ( I believe it's around 5% chance per tendril to receive one )
-Heavy damage weapons :
PKA does less than 10 damage in a pressurized space, the knife 10. Again, not without exploring and ALOT of luck. ( Implying the only "heavy damage" loot from tendrils is meat hook and katana thats a 5% chance too, because let's be honest nobody is using those other gimmick weapons )
Other weapons are deserved :
Drake's loot is mostly gimmicks and mediocre at best like fireball which is just one free kill but it better ends the round or you get bwoink
Cleaving saw is a joke against carbons
Spellblade is so fucking rare you should get an antag token with it ( context I've killed 15 bubblegums since the buff and have not received one :cry: )
Staff of storms is only useful when you're a traitor
The only overpowered weapon which requires too little effort is perhaps the hierophant staff which spawns guaranteed every shift with a fat 30 damage melee ( 15 brute 15 burn ) on no armour and the ability to attack from range with sleeping carp or teleport megafauna, the fight could be made a bit tougher.


Yeah, I agree that people who just role mining to grief should be jobbanned. However, it is better to fix this through game mechanics than admin intervention. If designed right, people will not have any motivation to role a particular role just for griefing. This has to do with proper job balance.
As for my being contradictory regarding the fact that they don't start with MOST of the griefing tools. Most miner griefers don't just grief right out the gate. They tend to get bored of lavaland after a little while and come back to the station and grief. By then they have the gear I speak of.

Sonic Jackhammer: Yeah, I'm cutting that period. If has no redeeming values whatsoever. If you have a better solution, lemme know.

80% resist armor: You already acknowledged that this is indeed a thing in a later post. I won't beat a dead horse.

Pens: Not an issue by themselves, more like on top of the armor. Also, I have been pretty well convinced that I am riding the pens to hard by various discord conversations. I think I updated the doc to that effect. I concede this argument.

Spacesuits: I'll take your word for it. I don't mind conceding this one either.

PKA: full damage duel-wielded PKAs EVEN in a pressure area are powerful. Also breaks glass really quick. Basically a ranged powerful punch that most armor doesn't block.

Other Weapons: I don't actually want to cut ruin loot. I just want to make it less easy to get to use for grief. In fact, this may have already been balanced and maybe I can just drop the whole ruin loot thing. Not sure. Call this one a stalemate pending more input.

All in all though, all of this stuff is Extrinsic Rewards for miners mining, and much of it is actually extrinsic reward for playing the roguelike, which is unrelated to actually mining itself.

Additionally, with powercreep in every department, this is not the only department with this issue, but I can't run a project to re-balance EVERYTHING, now can I? Note though that oranges IS working many of the other departments, and I hope that I can get my mining rework to fit in with his grand vision.

Spoiler:
#Due to minor variations in RNG, player skill, and station staffing
This applies to any department. Not every player and every round is the same.
Mining : Either no ores or they wipe the station in 20 minutes.
Cargo : You can't even get a pizza crate to save your life or they have 10x as much guns as the armoury only 10 minutes in.
Science : No mining research an hour into the shift, or Cuban Pete going chicky chicky boom at the 3 minute mark
And the list goes on, the thing is TG players don't need anything to murderbone but a license to.
All the fancy tools just make it more fun, not even easier because we all know stun combat is still most efficient if you want to be safe and keep it clean, albeit boring which is why we have all these toys and other stuff, if the nerfs keep coming soon the most robust tools will be :peel: and :toolbox:


See the last paragraph of my previous section. Also, I thought we were trying to move away from stun combat altogether? Stunning being brokenly powerful is dumb and needs reworked. Also outside of the scope of this rework, sadly.

Spoiler:
#On topic of the new role distribution
Curators who like to fuck off into space are really just assistants too lazy to break into EVA for a suit.
I really like your idea of a curator as some sort of old veteran miner too rusty for the job ( or bored because bad orange man nerfs :D ) who would teach the young miners all the tricks to lavaland.
The new "miners" would probably be a dead role unless you really make the drills interesting enough, best case scenario people roll it because Explorer slots are taken and now you have 6 people with "heavy damage weapons" fucking around.


Agreed, curators should be more than just bored lower-access assistants.

I'm still trying to fit curator into all this, and its not going all that smoothly. Wouldn't mind advice there. I'm debating on dropping the curator part altogether. It just thematically fits with Xenoarchaeology so well.

As for miners: See other replies or the google doc for how I am trying to make the new mining mechanics engaging.
As for them rolling miner to really play the explorer slot. They won't start with that kind of gear, the two roles will be semi-symbiotic anyway, and see YOUR argument about admin job-banning players who role mining to actually do something else. Although I am working out how to restrict this from a game-mechanic standpoint, as per my argument that relying on admins for IC issues being non-ideal.

Spoiler:
I don't mind change but when you try to justify it with bad arguments I can't help it.


Hopefully I cleared up any bad arguments. I also revised much of the doc, and cleaned up where I noticed bad logic being used.

Spoiler:
Sorry about the shitpost, and the wall of text which I made anyway 8-)


No harm, no foul. Thank you for your responses. I appreciate it and look forward to any more discussion.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:30 pm #477367

Mey Ha Zah wrote:Hey Daxxed, lay off Caiggas a bit.

First of all, the drill concept wasn't his to start with, it was mine, and if anyone on the server who knows me, I powergame a lot of mining. I started rethinking lavaland a whole year ago, and even talked to several former headmins and coders about it, and the drill was discussed a lot, but never implemented due to the fact I am not a coder nor could I hire any coders for the sheer amount of work that would need to go into basically re-designing a whole aspect of the game. Yes right now its mostly concept, but concept is where everything starts.

Also, I have slaughtered every Megafauna. Bubblegum was my favorite before his buff (Still working on learning him). And I know tricks that many other players don't that I keep to myself, most of which are going to be nerfed into oblivion because of how broken they are. They only aren't because not many people actually bother to read code and understand things and test and test and test.

Also, the HECK suit, you must have at one point enjoyed that beautiful suit of armor. I'm the person who sprited and originally concepted the idea, before working with and talking to XDTM about it, when he was able to turn it into a reality. Point is, I love mining, it's getting boring, lets fix it.


Thank you, Mey. You've done a lot to refine this design. I appreciate your input and experience.

Anyone else reading this thread, Mey and I collaborate very heavily and have come to agreements on most things, so you can assume that I agree with what he says unless I mention otherwise.

Also, yes, Mey is the brain behind The Drill. Hopefully we can bring it to life, together.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby MMMiracles » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:12 pm #477373

It might be more interesting if you take the ore-processing off the station and have all that shit done on lavaland. Add in some sort of basic refinery requirement for all raw ores and suddenly players have reason to set up little outposts around their drill for harvest/refining before shipping station-side, throw in a cheaper way to lay down conveyor and you have the starts to a fun Factorio knock-off.
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Caiggas
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:54 pm #477377

MMMiracles wrote:It might be more interesting if you take the ore-processing off the station and have all that shit done on lavaland. Add in some sort of basic refinery requirement for all raw ores and suddenly players have reason to set up little outposts around their drill for harvest/refining before shipping station-side, throw in a cheaper way to lay down conveyor and you have the starts to a fun Factorio knock-off.


This was an idea bounced around discord and the doc for a bit. The ORM is a bit boring. I suppose the drills could be PART of the gameplay, and the processing the other part. I mean, it's really starting to sound like Factorio/Modded MC, both of which are famously engaging. I'll have to think about this. Thank you.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:57 pm #478842

By the way, for new readers. First iteration of the drill's mechanics are complete and on the google doc. Lemme know if you have any feedback.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby confused rock » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:45 pm #479212

Why does lavaland even have to be its own Z-level? The thing asteroid had over lavaland and that’s still a problem is that mining is so absurdly detached from the station. The only transport being 2 shuttles and a teleporter doesn’t help that.
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:31 pm #479217

confused rock wrote:Why does lavaland even have to be its own Z-level? The thing asteroid had over lavaland and that’s still a problem is that mining is so absurdly detached from the station. The only transport being 2 shuttles and a teleporter doesn’t help that.


Honestly, I am not 100% sure. I don't know what the limitation on z-level sizes is, so maybe the main station could be on the same z-level as the mining area. I think that's something that will take some testing. Our current stations pretty much fill up most of the z-level they're on. I'd be ok with it all being 1 level if it is technically possible and we had some counter to griefers kiting fauna/megafauna back to the station.

Alternatively, we could use a system like the elevator in the 'Snowedin" in map to go down to the mining z-level. The elevator could be in a public area and part of the station could be down there. Maybe the bar, cargo, and anything else appropriate.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby confused rock » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:38 pm #479219

I just wish lavaland was a random space z level like the asteroid was, it made more sense and let stuff happen like corpses crashing into the mining bay instead of lavaland feeling like an entirely different game. The problem there is that lavaland bosses were designed for full speed in regular clothes (despite its normal threats being designed for slow hardsuit people with bad insulation-watchers are dangerous in a hardsuit and goliaths are slow to make dodging easier, while legions and goldgrubs run slow so people in hardsuits can catch up) so any space breach causes a problem.
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:17 pm #479291

confused rock wrote:I just wish lavaland was a random space z level like the asteroid was, it made more sense and let stuff happen like corpses crashing into the mining bay instead of lavaland feeling like an entirely different game. The problem there is that lavaland bosses were designed for full speed in regular clothes (despite its normal threats being designed for slow hardsuit people with bad insulation-watchers are dangerous in a hardsuit and goliaths are slow to make dodging easier, while legions and goldgrubs run slow so people in hardsuits can catch up) so any space breach causes a problem.


I completely forgot that the old mining was on the space accessible z-levels. I'll have to think about this. Thank you for reminding me!
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby ShadowDimentio » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:26 pm #479313

Who the fresh hell unironically believes mining, one of the most popular job on the station below science (which is like 4 jobs in 1), needs an overhaul?
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Gamarr » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:09 pm #479325

Remove mega-fauna, it gives lavaland a wonky feeling and their effect (the attacks that just delete everything around) on the terrain is fuck-awful annoying.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby 4dplanner » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:16 am #479389

>remove the only fun part of mining

no

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:33 am #479427

ShadowDimentio wrote:Who the fresh hell unironically believes mining, one of the most popular job on the station below science (which is like 4 jobs in 1), needs an overhaul?


I mean, I explain myself pretty well in the linked Google doc. Do you want to address a specific part? In summary though, current mining is mechanically boring, but spiced up with a rougelike tacked on. I want to make the ore gathering part fun and make the exploring part useful to the station.

This is, of course, a rough summary. Please don't bother to reply unless you have first bothered to read the doc. I have probably already addressed your concerns.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:36 am #479429

Gamarr wrote:Remove mega-fauna, it gives lavaland a wonky feeling and their effect (the attacks that just delete everything around) on the terrain is fuck-awful annoying.


I don't really intend to delete much if any of the rougelike part of mining. I'll probably do some tweaking, but I am honestly scared to touch megafauna. There's such a thing as too far.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby oranges » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:06 am #479433

confused rock wrote:Why does lavaland even have to be its own Z-level? The thing asteroid had over lavaland and that’s still a problem is that mining is so absurdly detached from the station. The only transport being 2 shuttles and a teleporter doesn’t help that.

There's no room and the asteroid as it's own z level already so this doesn't make much sense
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby confused rock » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:15 am #479435

ShadowDimentio wrote:Who the fresh hell unironically believes mining, one of the most popular job on the station below science (which is like 4 jobs in 1), needs an overhaul?

assistant's also a popular job. Mining is liked because it has way too much if you ask me. Let's say you want to add a fun magic item, like memento mori. The only places where magic fits are librarian would kinda fit but we never touch him, xenobiology which has the same problems as mining, and mining itself. mining's the best option, there. super easy, just add it to the chest spawnlist. Then you realise memento mori gives you immortality till someone takes it off and lavaland also has fucking guardian spirits and you realise how unfair lavaland is, with the caduceus and formerly legion cores 100% outclassing medbay(lmao survival pens are still better than anything medbay can get for stabilizing people in hardsuits and it's not even funny so reverse-lmao) For people on lavaland, sure, enjoy your job with only the social interaction you're forced to on the short trips to sci (I've had miners steal the fucking ORM to stay on lavaland more, leaving a hole giving assistants free access to the cargo bay) you might not need those trips anyway if you find golems. Lavaland feels like a completely different game to ss13. To people off lavaland, it's "that place where miners go and maybe come back with materials and definitely come back in a hardsuit better than the ce's with an actual wizard sword" and it's not engaging at all. If your assassination target is a miner, 100% chance your plan is just "do nothing unless you maybe see them on the station an hour in" I enjoyed the calm of the asteroid, Monsters were still a threat and the moderate connection to the station made mining feel like a cozy little station of your own. That said there was still plenty of things for miners to get- dumb toys like facehuggers and luxuries, and it was implied through the jetpack that once they did their work miners could explore space (connecting that aspect of the game with another job whereas now exploring space requires dereliction of duty), while miners now fight bosses. The asteroid itself had mostly abandoned crates, which still held fun stuff like katanas, but the asteroid had more mundane things, like the wumborian fugu which acted as a mini-boss that gulag prisoners could try to fight to escape as well as construct shells and a rare facehugger. Free xeno eggs on meta weren't really a concern then, so the facehugger was a unique thing that miners took very good care of instead of "whoops haha I accidentally turned the shield gen off". The time right before lavaland was added was great for mining: red alert meant pods crashed into it allowing inhabitants to either camp out with their capsule on the asteroid or explore space in their emergency suits, minebots could be given sentience with a chip to work with (when they could rival a miner's speed) or a very hard working miner could make an army of them, which ghosts would appreciate since ghost roles weren't as oversaturated and spoiled. With lavaland on its own z level, we've gained a bit of movespeed and size, but we've lost a lot.
oranges wrote:
confused rock wrote:Why does lavaland even have to be its own Z-level? The thing asteroid had over lavaland and that’s still a problem is that mining is so absurdly detached from the station. The only transport being 2 shuttles and a teleporter doesn’t help that.

There's no room and the asteroid as it's own z level already so this doesn't make much sense

what do you mean the asteroid as it's own z level already? The asteroid was replaced by lavaland? I think Lavaland should go back to being in the space z level? I mean yes that's it's own Z level but I want the lavaland z level to be one that connects to other space levels. I don't think the atmosphere and slight size increase was worth the downsides of lavaland being so disconnected from the rest of the station, and I'm not entirely sure that lavaland has to be separate for its atmosphere to work- that gondola asteroid ruin is pretty big and it manages an atmosphere as an asteroid, though it is fairly vulnerable to explosions. With an outer shell of stronger rock, lavaland could probably fit as the old asteroid did.
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby bman » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:41 am #479444

gondoland is airless but yes you can manage an atmosphere on an asteroid if you make the thing mostly impenetrable
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Dr_bee » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:55 am #479493

I think just adding the drills first would be a good addition to mining. As a regular engineer player I would love to manage power nets and machines on lavaland

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:14 am #479516

Dr_bee wrote:I think just adding the drills first would be a good addition to mining. As a regular engineer player I would love to manage power nets and machines on lavaland


I intend to. Good way to test if they are actually fun. If they have comparable yield to manually mining, then whether or not people use them will tell me a lot.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Gamarr » Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:36 pm #479573

The Mining side has always had enough stuff in order to be functionally separate from the station in everything but name. Sadly the place has a limit of 3 job slots that are just 'Miners.' Support personnel that can just attach there at start would be interesting and a small associate 'lab dome' or w/e for such personnel. Cook, engineer, etc.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby ATHATH » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 pm #480308

Oh man, I love this idea.

Maybe you should make ORMs only work on the station, in the Auxiliary Base, or in the Mining Base (or just anywhere that isn't inside of the Mining Base or the Auxiliary Base on Lavaland proper)? Otherwise, people are just gonna put an ORM 2 tiles south of a drill and never need to manually bring back the ore from the ore box without needing to set up any conveyor belts or the like. Note that I'd totally be cool with conveyor belts being used for automation purposes/to make the whole process automatic, because a conveyor belt loop leading from the mining base to the drill and then back with an ore box on it sounds pretty cool. You might also want to add the Gulag to list of blacklisted ORM locations, since people might try that trick there as well. Or perhaps just not allow ORMs to work within a certain radius of mining drills? That might be the simplest and most effective solution.

You could make the curator's book (maybe just roll it and the codex gigyas into one item?) be sort of like the chaplain's person: it doesn't spawn on the curator's person (in case no curator spawns), but it does spawn in their office and can be used more effectively by a curator than by other roles (well, technically, the only special thing that the chaplain can do with the null rod that most other people can't is change its form (IIRC), but that's pretty significant).

Is the curator going out and joining the explorers in adventuring so bad? To me, it sort of is equivalent to the RD joining the roboticist in making mechs or borgs, or Indiana Jones entering the temple with a bunch of redshirts at the beginjing of Raiders of Athe Lost Ark. In short, a head role being able to do the other jobs in their department if they have no members doesn't seem to be a problem. If you really didn't like it, you could make the curator's book be left behind when they get emergency fulton'd (maybe make it a big item that can't fit in normal backpacks, so it drops on the ground when they fall into crit and interferes with combat?) or make the curator afraid of Lavaland mobs (but not their names, so that curator phobia trolling doesn't begin again), requiring them to use/take psicodine in order to fight lavaland mobs effectively.

Has Zxsaber's Ripley change been merged yet? If it's not by the time that you make this PR/these changed, you might want to slip it into one of your PRs (with Zxsaber's permission and while crediting him) and claim that it's part of the overhaul because mining techs are encouraged to use it.

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Pizzatiger » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:02 pm #480460

We could combine the drills with the Glyphid PR. Glyphid nests spawn when the drill activates and the Glyphids have the goal of killing the drill. Once the Drill stops or is destroyed, the nest deactivates

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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Caiggas » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:26 pm #481044

Hey, I jsut wanted to give anyone reading this forum and update. I am currently working on fixing some issues so that I can build up a nest egg of coder GBPs.

I am still working on the design for this. I spend a lot of time discussing it on discord as well, but I need to get around to reupdating the doc. Some of the arguments I make I no longer agree with due to conversations I've had that have changed way I see certain issues. Anyway, you can expect a major revision of the first section of the doc sometime this week.

Pizzatiger, could you link me to the Glyphid PR? Maybe I am blind, but I cannot find it.

AthAth, thank you for your support. I didn't even thinka bout the issues with miners stealing the ORM. Question, does the ORM sync with the ore silo even when its on lavaland? If so, miners moving it next to the drills wont necessarily break the round, but I'd still like to prevent it do to it trivializing ore collection.

Actually, that brings up a topic I've been trying to work out. Should I try to add some kind of ore processing step before the ore gets loaded into the ORM? I feel like it just seems like busy work, or silly linear processing chains where ore goes into A machine, then into B machine, then into ORM. That's not REALLY any mroe engaing than just the ORM, it just adds arbitrary steps for no reason. I like the IDEA of more work after drilling out the ore, but I can't think of a way to make it actually FUN. Ideas here are appreciated.
“A choice with a clear optimal answer isn't actually a choice, and therefore isn't fun”

VV Quote in which Goofball agrees to follow the will of the players if he gets elected as headmin. VV
Spoiler:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Caiggas wrote:Now, what if you get a majority of feedback against a decision you have made? Are you just going to accept the feedback but ignore it, are you going to "think about it", but still do what you feel is correct, or are you going to COMPLETELY allow the feedback to dictate your decision regardless of your own opinions? For me to concede those last points, I can ONLY accept the last option. Otherwise you can just veto player democracy anytime you feel like it.
like the whistleblower thing, i'm sure some player will come up with a better alternative for the idea that works out and gives more power to the proletariat player and coder instead of the bourgeois


That's not an answer to the question. Let me put it more plainly. If the majority of player feedback is AGAINST a decision you made, are you or are you not going to change the decision to align with the majority of player feedback? Its a yes or no question.

uh, yes? what part of that wasn't clear


Trying to make sure there is no ambiguity in your answer. I don't want you to accuse me of taking something out of context if I ever have to throw the screenshot of this at you.

Scrumbledinks
 
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:30 am
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Scrumbledinks » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:24 pm #486668

Honestly, I think all your suggestion would do is make Shaft Miner more boring itself by making it a full time job whilst separating it from the fun aspects of Lavaland. That, and then you're adding Xenoarchologist to the game under a different job name.

I absolutely would not mind the latter however, -- I don't think miners should be locked out of the fun of Lavaland ruins entirely. Just add in artifacts again that only Xenoarchs have the tools/equipment to work with them and call it a day.

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confused rock
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby confused rock » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:45 pm #486832

The problem with mining is that this is a multiplayer game for 40-80 people and mining is 100% detached from the station. Instead of making mining more related to the station, the shift to lavaland made it further detached and tried to compensate by giving it shitty roguelite gameplay. It won’t ever be as good as a game made for it. While maybe fun for people who play ss13 for the combat (fucking why) it’s not good for the game as a whole. Imagine a level in left 4 dead 2 where someone can go down a sidepath completely alone and with no interaction for 95% of the level short of a hole in the wall they can throw pills through, and they come out with a chainsaw and an lmg with laser sights, or die. For all the other players he might as well be a pill dispenser that could break randomly, and for him he could be playing last man on earth or a zombie game designed for singeplayer.
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legoscape
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby legoscape » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:37 pm #489132

Yes, This pleases me. I like the ideas of this thread and the ideas of the new mining system sounds really unique to the old way we've been doing it for a long time. I came to put an idea in your minds; Lets rebuild the old Asteroid spot for miners. This will be a challenger area when the miners unlock the hardsuits from all their mining. I've envisioned the old asteroid mining station to be in shambles and falling apart. It could be filled ancient Goliath's and watchers' with new and cool bosses. To access the old asteroid station you would have to accumulate a large amount of points to retrieve a "Old Asteroid Signal" from the mining vendor. This would go into the console of the mining ferry and unlock the ability to go to the Asteroid base. We could even make a cool little sprite of a what it appears to be shut off mining base in the background parallax. How does it sound?

Daxxed
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby Daxxed » Fri May 03, 2019 10:01 am #491937

Why is this dead meme thread stickied ?

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PKPenguin321
In-Game Game Master
 
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri May 03, 2019 7:21 pm #492014

Daxxed wrote:Why is this dead meme thread stickied ?

this is the future is oranges gets forum moderator...
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
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adamkad1
 
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:11 pm
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Re: Complete Mining Overhaul

Postby adamkad1 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:39 pm #497474

Port goon mining?


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