[Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

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[Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby terranaut » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:32 pm #490640

Byond account and character name: Terranaut / Samir Al-Hajeed
Banning admin: Jimmius
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Note
Ban reason and length: -
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2019-04-23 20:36:11 Servertime
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Terry

Note Text wrote:admitted to metagrudging FallingAsteroids over an incident 2-3 weeks ago where the latter burned down engineering by accident. In this particular case, they flashed, stripped, and stole cigarettes from fallingasteroids (the cigarettes are what caused the plasma fire apparently). From what I gather from talking with both of them, this is far from the first time the weeks old incident has caused issues between the two. The next time something like this happens, it should be dealt with harshly.


I want to clarify some things because I don't feel like I am metagrudging anybody and I certainly don't admit to it.
The original incident: FallingAsteroids / Fren Cee burned down Engineering because they walked into Engineering, which an incompetent Engineer had previously flooded with Plasma, with a lit cigarette. As curator, mind you, so they were trespassing aswell. I usually kick most people out of Engineering, including people given access by the HoP or Captain without my consent, because I don't want anyone fucking with the Engine or Atmos but I take special care to place this guy on the hallway side of the Engineering airlock if I see him inside without an Engineering ID because of that incident. I generally don't strip people except to remove access from IDs.
Aside from that, I mostly ignore and not once went out of my way to antagonize the other party because I'd rather play the game than put myself in situations that aren't fun.
In this particular incident, I was the CE in a round that had been going on for about 2 hours. The engine had been sabotaged twice that round and I was obviously very protective of it and Engineering as a whole; every Assistant who'd been promoted without my consent was batoned, cuffed, access removed and thrown out. Aside from 2 trips outside to fix something on the Bridge and in Perma I had spent the entire game in Engineering (mostly fixing the Engine and further sabotage-proofing it). Close to the end of the round I was standing in the Engineering lobby and talking to the detective who was concerned about an atmos issue. Fren Cee was loitering outside as I was finishing with the detective, sees me and slurs a drunken "fuck u". For the insult I flashed him, batoned him, threw him a couple tiles away and took the cigarettes. I didn't strip him and I didn't do it without provocation. In that same round a bit later an officer also came to arrest me near round end because somebody had framed me for an attempted murder. The officer didn't want to tell me who did so and I just went with them because the officer was polite and I hadn't done anything besides killing a traitor with his own DESword, which was witnessed only by an Assistant who a) saw the other guy pull the DESword, after I stunned the Assistant to remove them from Engineering b) didn't tip security off that I had killed someone (out of spite for trying to kick them out or some other stupid reason), as I had asked them OOC, which leaves me wondering who did tell Security I had (attempted to) kill/killed someone.
I don't know if it was him who tried to pin something on me but I would appreciate that being looked into. I did mention it to Jimmius near round-end as I was detained but he didn't say anything about it.
Generally, this is how all of our clashes go. I am sought out and insulted or pushed, I flash or baton him and walk away. When I play AI which is probably the majority of games he also likes to whine AI ROGUE on the radio for anything that could potentially maybe be done by a rogue AI, such as power issues, atmos issues, a shocked door, etc. If it's a slow round I'll call him a retard for it and move on or if I'm busy I ignore it.
In one particular incident that I remember, which was very early on and maybe a day or two after the plasmafire. At that point I didn't have anything against the person behind the character except that I thought they were stupid for running into Engineering with a lit cigarette and without access. I played as CMO and one of my subordinates was arrested for some stupid non-issue. I don't remember exactly why but I went to the brig and threatened to refuse medical treatment to the entirety of the security team if my subordinate wasn't released, the HoS reprimanded the officer and gave me my subordinate back. The curator wrote a news article praising the CMO for sticking up for his subordinates but referred to me as she (my character has long hair and it happens every now and then so eh). I went to the library to ask him to fix it, but couldn't get his attention by talking to him for about 30 seconds. I started throwing some stuff at him that was laying around (paper rolls or something, some library crap with throwforce 0) but he kept ignoring me so I just left and went back to medbay. Not a minute after there was another news article up in which he writes that he wasn't aware that I was the CMO, and that I was bad, evil or whatever, basically a bunch of insults, and that I had tried killing the poor, poor curator for getting my gender wrong.
This kind of behavior and forced escalation by him is generally how most of these things go when they go further than an insult in the hallway being met with a 3 second stun and me walking off and I definitely don't feel like I am metagrudging him.
I flash people all the time, such as clowns for slipping me, when people are in my way on a non-help intent and I can't pass them, the other day I telebatonned an officer for telling me to "pick up that can" after throwing one on the floor infront of me (although that one did at least get a chuckle out of me). I flashed an atmos tech earlier today because I needed firefighting gear to deal with a traitor sitting on the engine trying to force a delam and he would neither give it up nor deal with it himself. Point is, while I'll happily admit that I think the guy is a stupid asshole, I'm not metagrudging him and I'd like the note removed.



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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby Jimmius » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:13 pm #490651

The reason I suspected, and still believe that this was motivated by a metagrudge begins with how you opened your first ahelp.
[2019-04-23 19:48:25.119] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton)->Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed): hey, what happened between you and Fren Cee
[2019-04-23 19:49:37.261] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed)->Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton): About 2-3 weeks ago he ran into a plasma leak in Engineering with a lit cigarette and I consistently make sure to keep him out of Engineering if I'm in a positiont to do so because of it. He calls me a shithead or AI ROUGE or whatever because of it every now and then and sometimes he gets the telebaton for it.

Specifically:
I consistently make sure to keep him out of Engineering

and
He calls me a shithead or AI ROUGE or whatever because of it every now and then and sometimes he gets the telebaton for it.

I then asked you what he did this round to get you to attack him, because opening up with "he did something bad a few weeks ago and I dislike him" didn't seem like good enough reasoning.
[2019-04-23 19:51:48.251] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton)->Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed): did he call you anything this shift?
[2019-04-23 19:53:20.802] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed)->Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton): I don't remember, the Engine got sabotaged twice and I was mostly busy fixing it the whole round. Scrolling up the logs, he drunkenly said "fuck you" while loitering outside of Engineering when I talked to the Detective in the lobby. I flashed him after.

He did indeed say "fuck u" to you, to annoy you for baiting him into examining a pile of items.
ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #2: FallingAsteroids/(FallingAsteroids): Said fuck you cause he pointed at a lag pile of the same item so I would look to freeze my PC.

My issue here is that you didn't open with this, and struggled to remember the "actual" reason you attacked him. As though the actual IC justification for your stunning was something you came up with after the fact.
Anyway, you then left engineering, flashed them in the hallway, stunned them, took their cigarettes and threw them away. The cigarette confiscation was interesting, because the first thing you said to me was that you've been enforcing an engineering job ban on him because he ignited a plamsa fire with one. You did not strip him, so I'll edit your note to reflect this.
At this point I raised my concerns to you.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton)->Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed): I'm just concerned this is turning into a metagrudge between the two of you. I don't imagine this is the first time the two of you have fought over the plasma incident.

And you replied with this:
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed)->Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton): I mean, it basically already is. I honestly don't care too much because he isn't being physical and I just knock him out of Engineering if I have to, which I feel is my right as CE/Engi when he's neither, because I know he's grosssly incompetent.

I'm sorry if I mistook your meaning here, but me saying "I think this is a metagrudge" and you saying "yes, this is a metagrudge" lead me to suspect that there might be some metagrudging going on. You then ahelped:
[2019-04-23 20:03:36.924] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed)->Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton): Also, just for the record, Security is detaining me for attempted murder. The officer didn't tell me who accused me or who I supposedly killed, and since I'm not an antag I don't particularly care, but in case this Fren Cee dude accused me because I batoned him once then he's clearly being a massive faggot, as expected

Which is true, he did go around telling sec to arrest you for being a traitor. This confirmed to me that the grudge definitely goes both ways, so I decided to tell you both to stop it.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton)->FallingAsteroids/(Fren Cee): I'm going to tell the both of you to stop this dumb metagrudge. Something that happened weeks ago should not be causing two adults to squabble like children

Then the round ended.
Next round, you asked me if there was anything else I needed to say, and I told you this:
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Jimmius/(Jimmius)->Terranaut/(Terranaut): it's fine, I've said all I need to. I've told you both to stop antagonizing each other. Next time this happens, just ahelp.

I then noted you, and decided to make it a public note based on the fact that you made no attempt to hide the fact your actions were in part motivated by a dislike of the player based on their behavior in previous rounds. I asked a few other admins and they agreed, making a similar assumption that me raising my concerns about a possible metagrudge, and you saying "it basically already is" was an admission.
In conclusion, I will not be removing the note, though I will edit it to reflect the fact you deny admitting to it, and the fact you didn't strip them. I think it's abundantly clear that you are both using the incident weeks ago as an excuse to annoy each other, and you both need to stop.

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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby Jimmius » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:35 pm #490653

The note now reads:
metagrudging FallingAsteroids over an incident 2-3 weeks ago where the latter burned down engineering by accident. In this particular case, they flashed, telebaton'd, and stole cigarettes from fallingasteroids (the cigarettes are what caused the plasma fire apparently). From what I gather from talking with both of them, this is far from the first time the weeks old incident has caused issues between the two. The next time something like this happens, it should be dealt with harshly.

Hope this helps!

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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby terranaut » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:47 pm #490654

Picking apart multiple nested quotes is awful so I'll just do it like this.

>I consistently make sure to keep him out of Engineering.
It's not metagrudging; my character has knowledge that his character is incompetent to the point that he walks into a plasma leak with a cigarette. I don't kick him out of other departments whether he's trespassing or not, because he can't cause catastrophic personnel and material damage there, and they're not my department. I also kick everybody else out of Engineering unless I know that the player is competent enough not to cause damage on accident, and either know or strongly suspect them not to be an antag. In this regard I essentially treat him like any other trespasser or character I didn't personally approve, except I have an extra reason beyond "I am suspicious of people who are in Engineering without my authorization" to treat him like this.

>You didn't open with the "fuck u"
Yes, because as I said, I try to avoid it and focus on other parts of the game - I didn't remember what exactly happened. I was and am confident that everything I do against him is always in retaliation which I'm sure you agree isn't notable. I scrolled up to check what exactly happened because I had already dismissed the matter - the traitor with the DESword I noted and the Assistant had been there a few minutes later which was not only fresher on my mind but also a much more relevant incident.

>You said, "I think this is a metagrudge".
Yes, from his side, because this happens every other round. I interpreted the question as "do you think he's metagrudging you?". In hindsight I probably shouldn't have, but since, from my perspective, it was very obvious that I was trying to avoid him / get him to leave me alone while he constantly sought me out that, yes, of course there was a metagrudge. You can sift the entire logs since then if you want and you won't find a single log where I've stunned/flashed/whatever him out of the blue.

>your actions were in part motivated by a dislike of the player
Wrong. Higher up you note that it seems that I only came up with my explanation after the fact, as a means to justify what I had done only after I was ahelped. If I was trying to lie, I wouldn't have ended my initial post by calling him an asshole. I don't deny that I dislike him, but I don't base my actions ingame off of this.

If you'd like some further indicators backing that up, check the logs of the round on Terry just now (I don't know if they're accessable as the server crashed near round-end, but I hope they are).
I was AI and he was Captain. At some point in the round a traitorous virologist had released a rather deadly virus. It was mostly under control before flaring up again shortly, at this point infecting the Captain, who didn't seem aware of it but was mostly alone near a bomb breach trying to fix it up. I have not once, but thrice, in all caps and high volume on Command yelled at him to get the vaccine or some orange juice, the cure (and if the logs are nuked and the guy has any shred of integrity, he'll confirm this) -- rather than taking the easy opportunity and just not saying anything and letting him die. Later in the same round the same virologist subverted me and basically made me kill everyone, giving priority to the Heads, and then Security. I had a bunch of borgs and he was alone on the bridge so I easily could have singled him out and killed him first, but rather than that I had attempted to get the atmos piping under control to more efficiently kill the heads and security in general. I only ended up killing him when he broke into my core with, I think it was an Atmos Tech wearing the CE suit, at no point in the round seeking him out as an easy, valid target to satisfy my supposed desire to kill him despite having had ample opportunity to either do so myself or send some borgs to do it. This is because I kill targets based on the threat they pose, and not my like or dislike for them.
A further, smaller, indicator for this is that I go to great lengths to kill even the lowliest Assistant or Clown even if I get along with them very well OOC when I know that they are robust players and will pose a threat to me if not taken care of early. I will ask you again to remove the note or investigate further before making a decision.

>lagpile items whatever
Only noticed this when re-reading and editing, but:
The "lag pile" of items was 20 or so extended emergency internal tanks, filled with Pluoxium, which I had created for the crews benefit and announced as much. The reason for this was all of the Nitrogen and Air supply missing, and my atmos techs dumping pure O2 in the loop to help mitigate this (the aforementioned issue I talked about with the detective, who was offering help, which I had denied saying we already took care of it -- which you might remember me pasting to you in the ahelp, where I mentioned the formatting would be scuffed. I think I said, "already done" or something to that effect). I was pointing at the pile to indicate the internals I made for the crew.


>Hope this helps!
No, because it still makes it look like I metagrudge people, which I think is a very serious accusation, when I don't. It doesn't even reflect that I was insulted first and only stunned them in retaliation, which would be the absolute least I'd expect from an edit. (Not that I would settle for it because it would still untruly label me as metagrudger)
Last edited by terranaut on Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby Jimmius » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:07 am #490658

You're arguing that someone saying "fuck u" for baiting them into examining a pile of items is a good enough reason to stop what you're doing, leave engineering, flash them, baton them, and then take their cigarettes (The very same item that caused the incident between you)? And there's no way this could possibly be interpreted as metagrudging? Because it looks extremely like metagrudging to me.
That's all the note is, really. If you honestly don't go out of your way to antagonize him, and this was just a one off thing that will never happen again, the note is unimportant because you'll never get into another Definitely Not Motivated By A Metagrudge Honest situation again. If I'm correct, and your actions towards this player are motivated by your metagrudge, the note is important because the next admin who finds you stunning a guy and taking his stuff for a laughably minor reason will know that you two have history.

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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby terranaut » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:12 am #490659

Jimmius wrote:You're arguing that someone saying "fuck u" for baiting them into examining a pile of items is a good enough reason to stop what you're doing, leave engineering, flash them, baton them, and then take their cigarettes (The very same item that caused the incident between you)? And there's no way this could possibly be interpreted as metagrudging? Because it looks extremely like metagrudging to me.
That's all the note is, really. If you honestly don't go out of your way to antagonize him, and this was just a one off thing that will never happen again, the note is unimportant because you'll never get into another Definitely Not Motivated By A Metagrudge Honest situation again. If I'm correct, and your actions towards this player are motivated by your metagrudge, the note is important because the next admin who finds you stunning a guy and taking his stuff for a laughably minor reason will know that you two have history.


Please refer to the edited bit above; I wasn't baiting anybody into examining anything (and note the very minor time difference if you want to accuse me of making it up after the fact again, I was typing the edit up as you wrote your post).
As far as I know these are things you can check to confirm that what I am saying is consistent and not fabricated. Other admins on Terry that have dealt with me some more might, I would hope, also agree that I am honest in ahelps, even when it looks like I might be in trouble.
As I've pointed out I stun people for other, sometimes even lesser reasons. If someone insults me, pisses me off or is in my way and not movable then I will generally just flash, stun or shove them and move on -- the same as I have done in this case. This is characteristic behavior for me and in no way related to an imagined metagrudge. I'd like you to actually address what I'm bringing up and not just repeating "I think you're metagrudging so eh" and ending it there.
I don't consider the note unimportant because it makes me look like a shitter to any admin who checks my notes. If they want to think I'm a shitter, then they're free to do that, but I'd rather not it be because of a note that isn't true. Also, I don't think your sarcasm (Definitely Not Motivated By A Metagrudge Honest) is necessary here, I'm not being snide either.

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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby Jimmius » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:32 am #490664

This isn't really going anywhere, so I'll give my conclusions, and then a headmin can decide what to do about this.
Metagruding is very hard to prove from one incident alone. This is why possible metagrudging is usually noted in secret. I made a public note because, after talking with some other Terrymins, we thought that your reply to my comment on metagruding was an admission, and therefore a secret note was not needed. I understand now that you didn't realize that's how we interpreted it.
That being said, I'm still leaving the note, for the reasons detailed in my third post. I understand you worry that it will make other admins think you are "a shitter", but that's not really important in deciding if the note should remain or not. I don't think you're a shitter, I just think you've gotten into a dumb feud and need to cool off. If a month passes and nothing more turns up, I'll be more than happy to remove it.

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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby terranaut » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:16 am #490687

Jimmius wrote:This isn't really going anywhere,

Quite possibly because you're not addressing or a acknowledging a single point I brought up after the initial post. If you hadn't directly responded to the shitter thing I would've assumed you've barely read the posts as a whole, too.

Jimmius wrote:Metagruding is very hard to prove from one incident alone.

And yet your note makes a very clear case to anybody uninvolved reading it that I am indeed metagrudging and in the particular incident leading to the note have been the aggressor. The note completely lacks the entire context leading me to my actions in the first place and makes it look like I sought them out and stunned them to steal their cigarettes which you're aware isn't the case. Further you haven't written "I suspect them of metagrudging", either, you are very plainly spelling out that I am metagrudging, and have been doing so for the last 2-3 weeks.

Despite your own admissions that it's very hard to prove metagrudging -- and me outlining several situations in which I easily could have and gotten away with it, but didn't and rather chose to act in good faith and in a way that seeks to complete my goals, such as either helping the Captain as an Asimov or only turning on him as subverted AI once he becomes an active and immediate threat -- you rule in this way. These are things you can confirm if you look in the logs or question players, but you'd rather not and force me to play on the defensive for a month, basically forcing me to press F1 the moment I see his character to avoid being ahelped first, and should I then happen to explain myself poorly again in the following conversation I will, should your recommendation be heeded, "dealt with harshly".

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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby wubli » Wed May 01, 2019 9:54 pm #491714

Hello.
I've been reading this thread for the past few days and I believe both parties have a point, but let's go over the ahelp that lead Jimmius to note you.
[2019-04-23 19:49:37.261] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed)->Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton): About 2-3 weeks ago he ran into a plasma leak in Engineering with a lit cigarette and I consistently make sure to keep him out of Engineering if I'm in a positiont to do so because of it. He calls me a shithead or AI ROUGE or whatever because of it every now and then and sometimes he gets the telebaton for it.

This is using information from past rounds. I understand your point, though - there are players who are just annoying and it's probably better to keep them out of your department. But, don't you think it'd be easier to ahelp these things? Running onto a plasma leak in Engineering with a lit cigarette as a non-antag, turning it into plasma fire, is most definitely not allowed. IC solutions are almost always the best - but if this incompetence you're talking about is rule breaking, you should take it to ahelps.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton)->Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed): I'm just concerned this is turning into a metagrudge between the two of you. I don't imagine this is the first time the two of you have fought over the plasma incident.
ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Terranaut/(Samir Al-Hajeed)->Jimmius/(Stevenage Lutton): I mean, it basically already is. I honestly don't care too much because he isn't being physical and I just knock him out of Engineering if I have to, which I feel is my right as CE/Engi when he's neither, because I know he's grosssly incompetent.

You directly admit here that there is metagrudging involved.
It's not metagrudging; my character has knowledge that his character is incompetent to the point that he walks into a plasma leak with a cigarette.

Again, this is something you should ahelp, not act upon during following rounds.

I think one of the reasons why this note is a huge issue to you is because you feel like it's permanent and has only been applied to you. I believe it wasn't mentioned before, so I will clarify: both parties have been noted for this incident, and metagrudge notes expire after some time. It seems like there's some problem between you two, so Jimmius thought it was better to leave some sort of record of it. It could also help you in case this person decides to metagrudge you.

So, this appeal is both denied and accepted. The note will not be lifted, but will fade in some time; the reason why I don't say when, is because it would defeat the purpose of it. I highly suggest that you ahelp this person when they're doing griefing as non antags - if they make silly mistakes out of ignorance, it's not fair to hold it against them unless their attitude is poor: in that case, ahelp. I think both parties had reasons to act the way the acted and that's why, in case it's not really metagrudging, the note shouldn't worry you since it's just going to be deleted automatically.

I will leave this thread open in case you want to say something else, but my ruling is final.
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Re: [Jimmius] Terranaut - Telebatoning someone who insults you is not metagrudging

Postby terranaut » Wed May 01, 2019 11:10 pm #491727

You can go ahead and close the thread. Thank you for taking a look.


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