[POLL] Add slowdown for dragging bodies

[Reimoo]

I think it's kinda ridiculous you can run down a hallway at mach 5 both hands full and drag a human body with you. Since you can run unimpeded by dragging a corpse means it's most likely that there's blood trails all over the place by the 30 minute mark, and when you walk past a blood trail you don't immediately think of murder because they're so common. Security investigations are almost always boring and anti-climatic because most of the time the evidence is mingled with blood trails leading to medbay, making most blood trails not actually worth following. If blood trails actually led to something conclusive most of the time, maybe traitors would be encouraged to use a little more finesse when deciding to factor in time to clean up their mess or not.

Then people are gonna say "what about getting dying people to medbay?"

Inaprovaline and a stretcher. We could actually make them useful for once. Ever since I saw a clown being towed away on a stretcher I knew that I wanted this to be the norm because not only was it really funny to see, but it actually made sense IC wise because when you see a guy show up with a stretcher and take someone away, you know something just hit the fan and it makes the situation that much more believable. On scene medical treatment needs to happen more often because frankly despite being an MD on a station almost guaranteed to suffer casualties, the job is so mind numbingly easy and boring nobody actually plays it.

[Saegrimr]

I was thinking slowdown for dragging just about anything. Especially if it isn't something you can pick up, or put in a backpack.

[MrStonedOne]

This post was deleted by MrStonedOne on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 pm.
Reason: Requested

[Reimoo]

Dragging anything should slow you down and take at least one hand. I never understood why this and grab are separated.

Also how is forenssinc scaner based on RNG?

I kinda scratched that part out because it wasn't really relevant but IIRC it's because it's not guaranteed of whether or not fibers/fingerprints show up when you touch something and it's based upon chance.

[cedarbridge]

Then people are gonna say "what about getting dying people to medbay?"

Inaprovaline and a stretcher. We could actually make them useful for once. Ever since I saw a clown being towed away on a stretcher I knew that I wanted this to be the norm because not only was it really funny to see, but it actually made sense IC wise because when you see a guy show up with a stretcher and take someone away, you know something just hit the fan and it makes the situation that much more believable. On scene medical treatment needs to happen more often because frankly despite being an MD on a station almost guaranteed to suffer casualties, the job is so mind numbingly easy and boring nobody actually plays it.

Actually, I'd be for anything that got jackass assistants to stop dragging bodies away from medical staff that DO show up to the scene. I've had to chase down (and occasionally syringe) half a dozen jerks dragging recent casualties down the hallway toward medbay and away from my backpack full of medical supplies and defib.
Also, unless a fix is added, stretchers don't actually stop blood trails.

[Phalanx300]

I'd like to see some more realism. So yeah I'd support this change. Also, it makes those medbay carts good for transporting people.

[Balut]

Make the slowdown tied to item size. What size is a corpse, again?

I am slightly wary of making it require a hand, since I occasionally use that as a basically a really awkward third hand slot. It balances out for the non-ability to hold more than one thing in each hand by draping shit in my arms, under my armpits, or making a basket out of my arms or whatever the fuck, so it should totally stay as-is.

[MisterPerson]

Corpses don't have a size. Only items you can pick up have such a concept. We'd need to define some new vars.

The usual reason against this is that it would make security take even longer to arrest people and for doctors to get crit or dead people to medbay. Are we ok with that?

[Saegrimr]

The usual reason against this is that it would make security take even longer to arrest people and for doctors to get crit or dead people to medbay. Are we ok with that?

Unless the guy is on the ground for some reason, pulling him shouldn't take longer logically as he can still use his legs.

Making it take longer to drag people to medbay would encourage on-site medical treatment instead of "drag to cloning lel"

[dezzmont]

This would have strange implications for security, which already had a large power reduction. While a lot of that power was not really helpful, like the super stun ranges old tasers had, some of it was.

The stun change changed a lot of things about combat. We should wait to see where we are at for a bit before making more changes that make it harder to incapacitate and secure someone, either for arrest, murder, or hiding the body.

[cedarbridge]

Corpses don't have a size. Only items you can pick up have such a concept. We'd need to define some new vars.

The usual reason against this is that it would make security take even longer to arrest people and for doctors to get crit or dead people to medbay. Are we ok with that?

As a medical player sick of watching patients get dragged away because "lol u hav to medicine at medbay." Oh God yes please.

[danno]

realism is retarded.

[cedarbridge]

realism is retarded.

Dragfu combat and zero-slowdown drags are retarded too.

[Konork]

Dragging anything should slow you down and take at least one hand. I never understood why this and grab are separated.

Because dragging things existed before the grab intent and, in all the time that the two have existed, no one apparently decided to try merging the two.

[cedarbridge]

Dragging anything should slow you down and take at least one hand. I never understood why this and grab are separated.

Because dragging things existed before the grab intent and, in all the time that the two have existed, no one apparently decided to try merging the two.

To be fair, drag and grab intent function totally differently. Try using grab intent on a super matter shard next time somebody brings one on station. Also, see how long it takes for somebody to robust you for using grab intent on a criminal enroute to the brig.

[lumipharon]

Holy fuck please no. Enjoy trying to arrest anyone ever, with a slow down from dragging.

Realism is good when it doesn't make the game less fun. I truly believe this will make the game much less fun. Also dragging people in from space. Enjoy your space wind + freeze slow down + drag slow down.

Also the logic with it only slowing down for corpses makes no sense since yes, a person cuffed and alive can use their legs. But pretty often they would you know, be resisting/dragging their feet. For that matter cuffing someone in this game is extremely unrealistic, in terms of how gimped you are when cuffed, but that's gameplay over realism.

Gameplay over realism.

[cedarbridge]

Holy fuck please no. Enjoy trying to arrest anyone ever, with a slow down from dragging.

Realism is good when it doesn't make the game less fun. I truly believe this will make the game much less fun. Also dragging people in from space. Enjoy your space wind + freeze slow down + drag slow down.

Also the logic with it only slowing down for corpses makes no sense since yes, a person cuffed and alive can use their legs. But pretty often they would you know, be resisting/dragging their feet. For that matter cuffing someone in this game is extremely unrealistic, in terms of how gimped you are when cuffed, but that's gameplay over realism.

Gameplay over realism.

Its not that hard to check for "Is cuffed" Also, designing everything around spacewind (an admitted poor design/bug in the first place) is kinda dumb. As it is now, we don't have realism or fun, we have drag-fu and patient/suspect abductions.

[Scones]

Howsabout Xenos get slowdown on that shit. It'd made dying to them about 300% less "Wow, that was utter shit!"

[lumipharon]

I can also carry enough metal in my backpack to construct 175 solid metal walls. Those things are like 2m^3 cubes of metal. This does not slow me down, and takes up the same amount of space as 7 match sticks.
I can also be shot in the head point blank with a shotgun or revolver, and slap a BRUISE PACK over the gaping wound and instantly recover.

Designing things purely around realism is not good game design. It's a game, it needs to be fun. If this change makes the game more interesting and/or fun great.
Slowing things down is usually less fun and more tedious. We saw it with space speed nerf, and we see with hunger slowdown currently when people have to rely on sugary food because there's no chef currently. People hate it.

[cedarbridge]

I can also carry enough metal in my backpack to construct 175 solid metal walls. Those things are like 2m^3 cubes of metal. This does not slow me down, and takes up the same amount of space as 7 match sticks.
I can also be shot in the head point blank with a shotgun or revolver, and slap a BRUISE PACK over the gaping wound and instantly recover.

Designing things purely around realism is not good game design. It's a game, it needs to be fun. If this change makes the game more interesting and/or fun great.
Slowing things down is usually less fun and more tedious. We saw it with space speed nerf, and we see with hunger slowdown currently when people have to rely on sugary food because there's no chef currently. People hate it.

Quote me using realism as a reason to add this and I'll take the complaint seriously.

[lumipharon]

It wasn't specifical targetted towards you, but the change in general.

[Reimoo]

I assumed it wasn't necessary to say that dragging someone able to use their own two feet shouldn't result in a slowdown. That would be a ridiculous security nerf.

Also, this isn't at all about muh realism, just because it's a slowdown doesn't mean anything. It just makes it more interesting than belting it straight to the medbay with a dying/dead guy in tow. MDs will actually have to start doing their jobs and answer calls for a medic.

[soulgamer]

I assumed it wasn't necessary to say that dragging someone able to use their own two feet shouldn't result in a slowdown. That would be a ridiculous security nerf.

Also, this isn't at all about muh realism, just because it's a slowdown doesn't mean anything. It just makes it more interesting than belting it straight to the medbay with a dying/dead guy in tow. MDs will actually have to start doing their jobs and answer calls for a medic.

How the fuck is tedious more interesting? Slowing you down means less doing fun stuff and more walking down boring hallways. How does this add anything to a round? Sure it adds "realism" dont get me fucking started on this oh my god but that is it. It adds no fun. It adds nothing but a slow mind numbing walk to an already tedious chore. Instead people will be towed even slower into medbay so they will arrive dead. The injured/dead person will have to be in crit/cloning even longer taking fun out of their round. At the very best this means people will use their emergency innaprov pens more and just take longer dragging people. Or better yet just not help people at all.

[dezzmont]

It depends on how slow we are talking actually. The intent seems to be to less about moving bodies being really slow and making it easier to catch up to someone who is dragging. This means you could use an almost unnoticable slowdown just to make it so that non-draggers can catch up.

Problem is that this favors the station more than it favors antags and does so in a way that shuts down potential play options without really opening anything up. It is purely for the convinience of medical officers.

[Incomptinence]

Anyone advocating realism in a 2d game is a total moron.

Unless you are thinner than the edge of a knife 2d realism won't get you more immersed. Hell I would say the inability to conceive a reality where the game fits perfectly is a personal failing of imagination.

[lumipharon]

Keep in mind that with byond there is no "minor" speed adjustment. You're either old speed sanic, current cruising speed, or crippled snail slow. Or frozen, dying, crippled snail slow.

[Screemonster]

If you wanna talk realism, dragging a wounded body at running pace along a hallway by their ankles would royally fuck them up.

If you wanna discourage patientdragging in favour of more stretchers and on-scene medical, give people in crit like 3 brute for every tile they're dragged or go full baymed

[Steelpoint]

If your going to go for the realism angle you can't pick and choose what parts to take and ignore.

As for body drag slowdown, all I see is a benefit to medical doctors and a harsh nerf to antagonists and security.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Bodies will be just transported in lockers. Security will cry.

I get it, pulling is a huge problem for many things, but fixing it is gonna be HARD.

[Phalanx300]

If you wanna talk realism, dragging a wounded body at running pace along a hallway by their ankles would royally fuck them up.

If you wanna discourage patientdragging in favour of more stretchers and on-scene medical, give people in crit like 3 brute for every tile they're dragged or go full baymed

Baymed would be great, especially their virology is much better then what we have. Actually feel like a Virologist rather then a ghetto chemist/geneticist.

[kosmos]

Anyone advocating realism in a 2d game is a total moron.

Unless you are thinner than the edge of a knife 2d realism won't get you more immersed. Hell I would say the inability to conceive a reality where the game fits perfectly is a personal failing of imagination.

"If you disagree with my view, you are a moron."
I don't see anything bad with the game trying to be more realistic. Also it could encourage doctors to use the defibrillators more and antags to do more subtle attacks since they can't make the body vanish as quickly from the hallway.

[phil235]

Adding body dragging slowdown would also give a use to roller beds.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Oh, good, again we have a poll so people can use it as an argument without actually reviewing all pros and cons or the situation in general

[danno]

Keep in mind that with byond there is no "minor" speed adjustment. You're either old speed sanic, current cruising speed, or crippled snail slow. Or frozen, dying, crippled snail slow.

yeah. at this point it's more about whether or not we want this game to become suffering or not.

Anyone advocating realism in a 2d game is a total moron.

Unless you are thinner than the edge of a knife 2d realism won't get you more immersed. Hell I would say the inability to conceive a reality where the game fits perfectly is a personal failing of imagination.

"If you disagree with my view, you are a moron."
I don't see anything bad with the game trying to be more realistic. Also it could encourage doctors to use the defibrillators more and antags to do more subtle attacks since they can't make the body vanish as quickly from the hallway.

If you are trying to make a game more realistic purely for the sake of realism, chances are you are weakening the mechanics of the game which is stupid
and therefore realism is stupid
ss13 is never going to be a realistic game and that's GREAT. that's FANTASTIC. let's not go down that road anyways, it sucks.

[Saegrimr]

Bodies will be just transported in lockers. Security will cry.

Which is why I suggested for all things that you can't pick up or store in a bag. Because locker-fu is also pretty dumb.

[Lo6a4evskiy]

Saving people from space will be impossible/much harder
Security will be much harder
Being a medic will be much harder
Surviving in crit will be much harder
Cargo will be much harder.
Space construction might become harder.

We seriously need to weigh all pros and cons. What do we get?
A purpose for certain things, but that's not really THAT great. Sure, Ripley might actually be viable for getting crates, but do we really need that?
What else? Can't think of a thing, to be honest.

[danno]

there isn't a positive to any of it unless you happen to be the dick in a situation trying to prevent the revival of someone
even just random bumping in the halls will be SO MUCH WORSE

this is a bad idea.

[cedarbridge]

I assumed it wasn't necessary to say that dragging someone able to use their own two feet shouldn't result in a slowdown. That would be a ridiculous security nerf.

Also, this isn't at all about muh realism, just because it's a slowdown doesn't mean anything. It just makes it more interesting than belting it straight to the medbay with a dying/dead guy in tow. MDs will actually have to start doing their jobs and answer calls for a medic.

How the fuck is tedious more interesting? Slowing you down means less doing fun stuff and more walking down boring hallways. How does this add anything to a round? Sure it adds "realism" dont get me fucking started on this oh my god but that is it. It adds no fun. It adds nothing but a slow mind numbing walk to an already tedious chore. Instead people will be towed even slower into medbay so they will arrive dead. The injured/dead person will have to be in crit/cloning even longer taking fun out of their round. At the very best this means people will use their emergency innaprov pens more and just take longer dragging people. Or better yet just not help people at all.

Have you considered maybe NOT dragging people across the station to medbay? If you're the sort who sees somebody go down and tunnelvisions dragging them to medbay at the expense of everything around you, you're part of the problem. Let medics do their job and stop whining about a change that makes you making lives harder harder. Fun fact: People you drag to medbay and then abandon (or attempt to personally stuff into cryo die more often than not BECAUSE you dragged them off and not in spite of it.

Problem is that this favors the station more than it favors antags and does so in a way that shuts down potential play options without really opening anything up. It is purely for the convinience of medical officers.

Other than the fact that drag-fu combat is retarded. Yeah, sure.

[Vigilare]

Someone who needs medical help that badly is probably gonna have to go to Medbay anyway, either being dragged as dead/crit or limping slowly at 30% health. Drag slowdown ain't going to make medbay's job any easier.

[Antonkr]

Yes only if you make roller beds not have the slow down, as well as giving them Bay's collapsible functionality.

[Vigilare]

Yes only if you make roller beds not have the slow down, as well as giving them Bay's collapsible functionality.

they already are collapsible
drag and drop onto yourself
(this works with closed, empty bodybags too)
(and tablecrafting which is weird but the only way to make IEDs)

I'd be cool with dragging a wounded/dead person giving them brute damage - it means taters gotta choose between the quicker death (dragging + blood trails) or the cleaner death (shove 'em in a locker in crit, slow but less blood)

plus rollerbeds are cool as hell why don't we use them more often

[RG4]

/TG/ Station - No quite Bay, but we're getting there!
Seriously if you want fucking realism in SS13 then go play on the more RP heavy servers instead of wanting to have ~R3aL1iSM~ on /TG/. Changing a lot of the fundamental elements of /TG/ being a lightRP server by adding elements that'd make more sense on RP severs is down right stupid and starts to make it unappealing.

[Antonkr]

Yes only if you make roller beds not have the slow down, as well as giving them Bay's collapsible functionality.

they already are collapsible
drag and drop onto yourself
(this works with closed, empty bodybags too)
(and tablecrafting which is weird but the only way to make IEDs)

I'd be cool with dragging a wounded/dead person giving them brute damage - it means taters gotta choose between the quicker death (dragging + blood trails) or the cleaner death (shove 'em in a locker in crit, slow but less blood)

plus rollerbeds are cool as hell why don't we use them more often

Oh shit, I thought that wasn't on /tg/. That's pretty cool.

[Incomptinence]

"If you disagree with my view, you are a moron."
I don't see anything bad with the game trying to be more realistic. Also it could encourage doctors to use the defibrillators more and antags to do more subtle attacks since they can't make the body vanish as quickly from the hallway.

More a moron for exercising one of the most futile struggles I have ever seen.

Has anyone sat back from this sort of jank and been satisfied? "OH MAN THAT RED SCREEN IS SO REAL, I am totally immersed now!"

Maybe if this was a good quality 3d game (watch those projects burn) with rift or some shit support so you could be a spooky spaceman it would work but this is so far behind the edge it is ridiculous and that sort of trickery is a thing you must play upon yourself.

Many good uses for dragging but oh no sec/antags! Better nerf oxygen because those guys breathe it!

[cedarbridge]

/TG/ Station - No quite Bay, but we're getting there!
Seriously if you want fucking realism in SS13 then go play on the more RP heavy servers instead of wanting to have ~R3aL1iSM~ on /TG/. Changing a lot of the fundamental elements of /TG/ being a lightRP server by adding elements that'd make more sense on RP severs is down right stupid and starts to make it unappealing.

Can we stop beating this dead horse? I don't see anyone championing "muh realisms" but it seems like every no vote saw the word "realism" in this thread somewhere and then jumps in to scream "real iz dum guise."

[Ikarrus]

Yes, PLEASE!

It's ridiculous how effective it is to stun+drag them away, in plain sight of others, at light speeds to kill them elsewhere.

The only caveat is that it shouldn't affect those who have been cuffed so security can still do their jobs effectively.

[dezzmont]

Saying "drag fu combat is stupid" isn't really an argument against dragging being easy. It is just an unqualified opinion. Qualify it by saying why the current combat system is bad, because currently the combat system mostly revovles around incapacitating a target and then securing them. Deliberately making it harder for antags to be able to grab a downed and stunned target will just make it harder to antag sneakily.

[Saegrimr]

Saying "drag fu combat is stupid" isn't really an argument against dragging being easy. It is just an unqualified opinion.

Neither is the constant "MUH REALISMS" retort to all of that.
So we have to look at this specifically at what it does both IN and OUT of combat.

Outrunning people while dragging someone on the floor and also bashing them to death is stupid.
Outrunning security while dragging a huge locker or crate to block their taser/disabler shots is ridiculous.
For security dragging people, if they don't suffer the same slowdown while STANDING, I don't see what the problem is.

How often are you dragging non-cuffed people while rapid tasing them? If your response is "often" then you should rethink how you're subduing people. You got cuffs for a reason.

[dezzmont]

Like I JUST SAID.

"It is stupid" is a non-arugment. It doesn't matter how specific a thing you are calling stupid is, you need to explain the actuall outcomes, not an unqualified opinion. That doesn't just let you look at if a change should be made, but how it should be made. Calling an idea dumb does not actually make it dumb, or do anything to advance discussion or help people come up with solutions.

For example, being able to move about without being caught ever is actually really hard to do in SS13 without having maint access. The hallway airlocks prevent drag-fu from being effective versus mobs unless you are clever and get a good head start. It conversely allows traitors to function without wirecuffs as a mandatory object. You also tend to start leaving a bloodtrail if you are beating on someone so it is very easy to follow you, and I am pretty sure you do stop for a step to hit your target. For that reason it probably isn't good for the game to make dragging a person even slower, at best landing an attack should manually slow you.

You also didn't go into why locker blocking has bad outcomes, you just again called it dumb. I think I agree that large furniture being dragged should be slowed down significantly. You should be using that to assemble stuff, not as a method of stealing parts of the station or blocking shots, so that means people fighting you need to be fast enough to get to your side effortlessly if you try this trick. The only large object that blocks projectiles that should be fast to drag should be security barriers.

Sec cuffs speeding up dragging when someone is standing is nonsense snowflake code that raises a lot of questions and hurts realisim in a confusing bad way rather than an acceptable breaks way, because it makes things work in reverse of how you would think they would, rather than making things work in a way they don't that people don't generally notice. Furthermore it does still nerf sec dragging because you would be slow dragging while initially moving, which would make it much easier to interfere with the arrest.

[MisterPerson]

Can we try to stay on topic? This isn't about "realisms", it's about making antags less effective at disposing of bodies and kidnapping people by chainstunning while dragging them away. That's it. Dezzmont is right, provide some gameplay-related consequences to your arguments or don't even bother posting. Any further discussion about "realism" or "/tg/ vs bay" or "we're turning into bay" will be deleted.

I disagree that dragging standing humans being faster than downed ones is confusing. It makes sense to me. People are fucking heavy, 120-200 pounds, easy. Do you have any idea how hard it is to drag 180 pounds without assistance? It's fucking hard. There's a reason that any real life police trying to arrest someone will wait until the person they're arresting is conscious and capable of supporting their own weight. And if they can't, that's what a stretcher is for since it has wheels.