How do we extend average round time?

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Kryson
 
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How do we extend average round time?

Postby Kryson » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:40 pm #522979

oranges has expressed a desire to see longer rounds, yet rounds feel shorter than ever.

Short rounds stifles RP, interesting projects and disincentivises developers from creating late game content.

I think this is the biggest problem in the game at this point and feeds into the mindset that everything needs to be faster and easier which in turn creates even faster rounds.

Adding more crew content is a good start, but i don't see many crew content PRs on the tracker and i don't think crew content alone is enough to extend rounds.

My personal ideal would be 90min-2 hour rounds.

What is the plan to address this?



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Calomel
 
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Calomel » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:14 pm #522982

I am honestly fine with shorter rounds. An average of an hour-long round is good enough for poeple to get things done job-wise and to play
out most things, and it doesn't get boring for people who just want to do their job and that's it.
Even with that, rounds are far longer on lesser pop servers, but I understand that playing with <15 poeple probably feels desertic.

On another topic, the issue of round duration is awlys tied to antag handling. It seems like antags are capable
of producing shuttle-call-worthy destruction really quickly (Fusion comes to mind), which severely shortens rounds; and
some antags by their own nature cause this (IIt seems like calling shuttle early is the easiest way to stop cult, in particular).

Tl:Dr - It seems liek Dynamic mode has created different antag-station interactions and as a result rounds are much shorter,
maybe we should try to determine why this is so and possibly think of ways to modify it to suit people's desires, and not
have 20 minute rounds.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:28 pm #522998

The majority of the antags are incredibly capable of mass destruction and not many jobs have content that can keep you engaged for an hour +

What's chemistry supposed to do, get banned for being poisonous griefers?

We need more content Kryson. Round Time would then follow.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby skoglol » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:44 pm #523005

1 hour rounds are reasonable, if you can't do it in 1 hour it's probably not worth doing. We shouldn't go much higher as a base, no need to punish people with extreme boredom for picking jobs with a more reactive style of gameplay, like security and medbay, or flat out no gameplay jobs like hop.

How do we achieve this?
1: Round ender gamemodes would have to go. Cult, nukies, revs, wizard (if non continuous). They do not work with longer rounds, and the chance of one of them being picked for any given round is too high.
2: Job content. Currently rolling a job like science gives you a single choice if you want to spend an hour doing something. That's xenobio. All the others are done in 5-10 minutes tops, and you often just end up staring at a screen while you tab out.
3: Prevent shuttle calls over stubbed toes. This kinda ties into the previous point, but for heads. If the captain/hop/hos/ce/cmo/rd get bored, they can call the shuttle. That's bad. We need a way to entertain heads enough to actually roll the job, then play the job until the round ends. How? No clue.
4: Prevent shuttle calls over small shit that seems big right then, but isn't actually a problem. Like a blob, why do we call the shuttle for a blob? Shuttle cant leave anyway, and the blob will be dead before it can. At that point, there should be more focus on fixing the damage and going back to whatever you were doing, but currently blob is a round ender most rounds regardless if it wins or not.
5: Draw the rest of the fucking owl.


Alternatively, reconsider when and how the round ends. Calling the shuttle is deeply engrained in the game, but I believe that being able to force round end as easily as you can hurts us in the long run. Antags have also been designed around the shuttle ending, with the best weapon against cult being a red alert shuttle call. Nukies force you to call and red alert as soon as you can. Wizards and traitors/lings that do well are also met with a shuttle call. The shuttle is the lazy mans solution to 1: missing out on the antag roll and 2: dealing with whatever situation is at hand. Why should you bother fighting the murderboner if you can just red alert the shuttle, hide for two and a half minutes then do whatever? Murderboner successfully cucked.


As for the comment on dynamic, the chaos have been toned down somewhat. Players will need some time to readjust though, we should see longer terry round times soon enough. This is also possible to fine tune, practically everything about dynamic is config adjustable.
Last edited by skoglol on Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:50 pm #523006

so remove shuttle summoning, replace it with calling an ERT and have shuttles slowly ETA the entire round until docking 1 hour into the round or more depending on the default config
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby skoglol » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:54 pm #523008

Forcing round time of an hour is also not the final solution. Honestly, goofs dynamic shuttle timer was a good idea and probably something someone who actually cares to do things properly should implement.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby RaveRadbury » Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:20 pm #523017

Part of the difficulty with this is that there are some who want rounds shorter than they are now. I think that if we are going to move towards longer rounds in general that Bagil should get adjusted in the opposite direction. A large amount of change could be effected just by fiddling with the server configs. Round ending modes can be made continuous or set to occur less often. We could shorten the average Bagil round while lengthening all the others.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby skoglol » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:04 am #523084

RaveRadbury wrote:Part of the difficulty with this is that there are some who want rounds shorter than they are now. I think that if we are going to move towards longer rounds in general that Bagil should get adjusted in the opposite direction. A large amount of change could be effected just by fiddling with the server configs. Round ending modes can be made continuous or set to occur less often. We could shorten the average Bagil round while lengthening all the others.


This is very possible with dynamic configs, you can tune shit way the fuck up or down per server.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby confused rock » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:12 am #523085

SS13 is like if in the final level of a campaign in l4d2 instead of having to survive until the chopper arrives you survive until you get bored and summon the chopper

the shuttle should come at a preset time in most gamemodes unless expedited or delayed and for once I don't just feel this way because lifeweb does it it doesn't do it but I still think it's a good idea
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:46 am #523135

ban heads for incompetence and calling because the meth factory exploded

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby CPTANT » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:04 pm #523146

Remove the ability of the AI to call the shuttle.

It's dumb and let's every assistant call the shuttle by shouting "AI law 2 call shuttle" on the radio.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby skoglol » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:04 pm #523188

CPTANT wrote:Remove the ability of the AI to call the shuttle.

It's dumb and let's every assistant call the shuttle by shouting "AI law 2 call shuttle" on the radio.


More of a band aid to the situation, but a good start. AI are compelled through law 1 to call shuttle the moment anything big happens that might lead to people getting hurt, which is dumb. Maybe if you could law 2 the AI to recall, but that gets way too easy again.
Remove AI shuttle calls!

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby cacogen » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:10 pm #523190

Make it so you can't call the shuttle until it's 40 minutes in
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:19 pm #523193

For round enders:

Cult should be returned to a non main antag position. A band of followers tasked with certain things: sacrifice this specific person, sacrifice 5 people total, have x members escape alive, convert 3 new members. Or, remove that last one and make cult no conversion. A small group of 3-7 followers (depending on pop) who work together and have strategy beyond stun and offer assembly line.

Wizard should be removed outside of dynamic, no longer its own gamemode. And in dynamic round shouldn’t end with wizard death (might already do this I’m not certain).

IDK about revs, but having the round not end once one side wins would definitely be interesting, at least to discourage station annihilation.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby deedubya » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:27 pm #523194

I inherently disagree with longer round times in general. A bit under an hour should be the average we're aiming for. Almost all of the people here are adults, and thus tend to not always have the time to commit to those 3 hour slogfests that some people seem to enjoy. Further, having longer rounds tends to result in a lot of other issues. Less diverse gameplay, due to being stuck in the same round type and role for longer. More ghost gang salt, due to having to wait longer for a fresh round. More bored people, as the vast majority of jobs or projects are able to be completed in under an hour.

Having the occasional longer round where everything goes well is fine, but shouldn't be the norm. That being said, we shouldn't discourage having more content for people to do in their jobs. There should be so much content in a job that you wouldn't be able to finish it all in an average round. Extending the round length to the point that engineering can just build an entire new station every round seems rather silly with this in mind.

As for how to shorten round times, the quick and (probably)easy solution is to add scaling midround antag generator odds. Basically, double the chance for an antagonist or catastrophe(meteors) to spawn every half hour. So 2x at 30m, 4x at 1h, 8x at 1:30, 16x at 2:00, etc. This provides more things for the crew to deal with, potentially gets more ghosts back into the round, and ends the round in a more natural fashion than say implementing a mandatory shuttle call after 2-3 hours.


Also, as an aside: Wizard rounds should mulligan when the wizard dies, much like cult rounds currently do if you somehow kill/deconvert all the cultists. It's certainly not impossible to rebuild a station that's been terrorized by a wizard.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Sandshark808 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:35 pm #523197

How about instead of generating catastrophes, have dynamic be better paced and let people leave the round via a private shuttle (or the crew freezer from Goon)? Then rounds could go on for ages and people could just leave and let others take their place.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby skoglol » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:53 pm #523200

wesoda25 wrote:Wizard should be removed outside of dynamic, no longer its own gamemode. And in dynamic round shouldn’t end with wizard death (might already do this I’m not certain).

IDK about revs, but having the round not end once one side wins would definitely be interesting, at least to discourage station annihilation.


Yeah, wizard does not end the round currently in dynamic, and that works well. With the additional removal of summon guns/magic/events, it doesn't break the round for everyone else either, although curse of madness might need to go away or get some tweaking too. Cheaper with non permanent traumas would probably do the trick.

As for revs, rev loss currently doesn't end round in dynamic. It ensures the revolution is over by removing the antag from everyone who was a rev/headrev, and sends a centcom message to confirm it is over. I have plans for changing the instant ending of rev win as well, but that is more work and requires some thinking. I will probably explore this further after the antag freeze ends.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:45 pm #523208

If we remove wizard events (or add some actually fun ones like rng loot) and summon guns/weapons I'll never complain about anything ever again.

That all sounds good tho. +1
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Horza » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:34 am #523218

Pre-ssethtide Sybil was at a very comfy entente between antags and regular players, with counts between 20-50 players. Nukie/wiz rounds were so rare that Sybil was the easiest server to completely steamroll as, as any sort of antag. Was it rules-based or code-based? Nah. Just players realizing that murderboning on a usual Sybil round was like waterboarding a 6-year-old child. Sure, you can easily do it, but why? What do you gain? We had a lot of fun gimmick-based antags and gimmick-based wizzes. One wiz even got acomplained since they outright joined sec and got a warden job since they were doing the pacifist wiz thing and got away with it, mostly.

The best way to prevent the scenario of oh fuck 50% of the station died and nobody cares enough to kill the horrendously powergaming murderboner please sent ERT isn't the usual admeme response of no but rather to do the pre-ssethtide Sybil method of simply publically shaming anyone who murderbones for no real reason. The reason it doesn't work at the moment, or at least one of the reasons, is that the admins don't put their foot down.
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Especially when admins go deadmin, get pirate, plasmaflood the station, murder the entire shuttle, and don't even try to achieve their objectives, whilst shitposting at the entire server in OOC all the while. Yes, I mad.


It's a userbase problem and trying to fix it via code or policy will make it worse.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:46 am #523220

Horza wrote:Pre-ssethtide Sybil was at a very comfy entente between antags and regular players, with counts between 20-50 players. Nukie/wiz rounds were so rare that Sybil was the easiest server to completely steamroll as, as any sort of antag. Was it rules-based or code-based? Nah. Just players realizing that murderboning on a usual Sybil round was like waterboarding a 6-year-old child. Sure, you can easily do it, but why? What do you gain? We had a lot of fun gimmick-based antags and gimmick-based wizzes. One wiz even got acomplained since they outright joined sec and got a warden job since they were doing the pacifist wiz thing and got away with it, mostly.

The best way to prevent the scenario of oh fuck 50% of the station died and nobody cares enough to kill the horrendously powergaming murderboner please sent ERT isn't the usual admeme response of no but rather to do the pre-ssethtide Sybil method of simply publically shaming anyone who murderbones for no real reason. The reason it doesn't work at the moment, or at least one of the reasons, is that the admins don't put their foot down.
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Especially when admins go deadmin, get pirate, plasmaflood the station, murder the entire shuttle, and don't even try to achieve their objectives, whilst shitposting at the entire server in OOC all the while. Yes, I mad.


It's a userbase problem and trying to fix it via code or policy will make it worse.

This is a pretty on-point opinion. Aside from Dornan, who is a server fixture, recently the big murderboners have been Bagil transplants and admins like imsxz, who kill the station and then suicide. It's kinda gay tbh, and if they want to shit the server up go to event hall or stay on Bagil.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby skoglol » Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:21 am #523223

wesoda25 wrote:If we remove wizard events (or add some actually fun ones like rng loot) and summon guns/weapons I'll never complain about anything ever again.


Already gone in dynamic. Dynamic is the future.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby NoxVS » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:00 am #523232

Sandshark808 wrote:How about instead of generating catastrophes, have dynamic be better paced and let people leave the round via a private shuttle (or the crew freezer from Goon)? Then rounds could go on for ages and people could just leave and let others take their place.

People dont call the shuttle because they are done playing for the day, they call it because the game is boring or everything is fucked. It allows for new antags which might make it FUN and also a station that isnt a headache to fix
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby oranges » Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:13 am #523238

if you're a terry player, do not even bother commenting in this thread, your server is misconfigured in a configuration the codebase does not support.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:52 am #523247

oranges wrote:if you're a terry player, do not even bother commenting in this thread, your server is misconfigured in a configuration the codebase does not support.

:thinking:
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby firecage » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:46 pm #523255

Honestly. The only way would probably involve adjustments to policies/rules involving random shuttle calls and the freedom antags are given.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:35 pm #523285

firecage wrote:Honestly. The only way would probably involve adjustments to policies/rules involving random shuttle calls and the freedom antags are given.

I brought this up a few times in OOC and people just sent me to paradise
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby cacogen » Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:28 pm #523293

Let people respawn as a different character after 10 minutes. Introduce more antags as the round progresses to keep it interesting, provided they aren't too destructive. Make repairs easier for engineers. Spawn another wizard instead of ending the round.

Look at the main causes of a round ending earlier than you'd like and work on reducing them. The above probably controversial ideas are to address the following: large amounts of dead, bored players and extensive or key area destruction.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby oranges » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:22 pm #523319

i've already commented on this btw, and we're just going to push for longer rounds from the code side and not worry about the policy/culture sides.

Already happening.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:36 pm #523323

oranges wrote:i've already commented on this btw, and we're just going to push for longer rounds from the code side and not worry about the policy/culture sides.

Already happening.


cursed ending because its the worst of both worlds. Murderboning and long rounds as a ghost doing nothing
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby oranges » Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:50 pm #523325

don't murderbone then
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Sandshark808 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:28 am #523336

oranges wrote:don't murderbone then

I'm going to code a PR where if you spawn with the name "Lexia Black" you instantly die. That should solve everyone's problems.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby NoxVS » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:35 am #523356

Not enough content to last an hour for every job

Too easy to kill people, most crewmembers are fragile and die right away, murderboners can just powergame and run around killing people unchallenged until someone else powergames to kill them and then the round ends because who the fuck wants to deal with that

Too difficult to fix station damage, too easy to make explosives
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby wesoda25 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:59 am #523361

skoglol wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:If we remove wizard events (or add some actually fun ones like rng loot) and summon guns/weapons I'll never complain about anything ever again.


Already gone in dynamic. Dynamic is the future.

Well shit I guess it is
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby deedubya » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:08 am #523379

oranges wrote:i've already commented on this btw, and we're just going to push for longer rounds from the code side and not worry about the policy/culture sides.

Already happening.

Please explain how longer round times are a good thing for the people who play this game.

Unless of course what you mean by "longer rounds from the code side" is "implementing more content for the crew so that they won't be "finished" in under an hour," rather than implementing hardcoded artificial time extensions. Because that would be great for everyone if that's what you meant.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Farquaar » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:01 am #523388

Isn't an hour-hour and a half perfectly reasonable? It's rare to see a Sybil round last less than an hour unless somebody goofs and blows themself up roundstart as a wizard.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby oranges » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:36 am #523395

yeah it's quite reasonable
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:04 am #523402

station breaking items like anything bigger than a meth bomb, plasma floods, bohs take so much time to fix and are unrewarding (an hallway will always look ugly because no d e c a l s) that you just throw a foam nade at it and then call shuttle

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby CPTANT » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:49 pm #523437

The fundamental problem of the game is that boring rounds where nothing is happening are long and interesting rounds with lots of action are short.

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Sandshark808 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:03 pm #523457

CPTANT wrote:The fundamental problem of the game is that boring rounds where nothing is happening are long and interesting rounds with lots of action are short.

And some jobs, especially service jobs, have such a slow ramp-up time that it's impossible to enjoy the fruits of your labors unless it's a no-antag boring round. Botany for example, or sometimes Xenobio.

Then other jobs like Engineering finish their set tasks immediately at roundstart and either get bored or have to find something wacky to do until the station is ruined. The entire non-antag job setup is out of whack to have long rounds be viable and fun for everyone.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:31 pm #523458

Here's an easy one.

The reason so many bored people spring up is because they're antag rolling.

And you honestly can't blame them.

It's well known that the thought of winning a lottery machine gives people a dopamine boost, and dopamine is an incentive.

The antag picking system is effectively that. It's a silent stealthy lottery machine upon which you press ready to join, and hope you get it.

If antagonists were picked first and before the round started, grief would go down EXTREMELY. Because the bored players would not exist since the only people playing would be people who want to do jobs of some sort.

Maybe this would be helped out with a backup system kicking in, or just doing the dynamic method of antags slowly being rolled in. (But that would still lead to early griefers being bored.)

Bored players cause problems. The less of them, the longer a round.
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:36 pm #523459

Sorry shadow but this is stupid
Antags scale with the crew size
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Critawakets » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:25 pm #523485

If there is something that would make rounds much shorter, it would be removing cloning which is what oranges wants. There really needs something to prevent reactionary "cap dead, call it" shuttle calls.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Cobby » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:32 pm #523488

the AMOUNT of antags scale with crew size, but the individual power is all the same.

At 25pop Wiz and at 100pop you still get 10 points.

Each traitor still gets 20TC and discounts are not shifted for pop.

If you want to kill round-enders, we need to look at the individual power for ALL antags. Especially in the wake of medical and stun changes.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:00 am #523495

this means current lings must die die die die

I wonder why they never became the "Stealth antag" they were supposed to be, and just became the immortal traitor with an infinite amount of items.
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Cobby » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:21 am #523523

onleavedontatme wrote:
Cobby wrote:I hate this argument "make it like the movie" because the whole premise of "The Thing" was finding its hardcounter and hardtell that obviously can't exist in a round-based open-source game without heavy RP restrictions or large balances in their favor which will just be a reskinned version of what we have now.



It's because people did not understand this.
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:56 am #523571

Cobby wrote:the AMOUNT of antags scale with crew size, but the individual power is all the same.

At 25pop Wiz and at 100pop you still get 10 points.

Each traitor still gets 20TC and discounts are not shifted for pop.

If you want to kill round-enders, we need to look at the individual power for ALL antags. Especially in the wake of medical and stun changes.

meant that
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Re: How do we extend average round time?

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:58 am #523572

Critawakets wrote:If there is something that would make rounds much shorter, it would be removing cloning which is what oranges wants. There really needs something to prevent reactionary "cap dead, call it" shuttle calls.

Just remove roundstart cloning and lock it behind late game node
Mathias Corvin on Terry.

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