/tg/Station 13

by **cacogen** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:13 am #531444

You may assume this thread is a kneejerk reaction to being slept by aductors for twenty minutes. But I was looking through my notifications on Github and a PR about abductors reminded me about this.

The baton is OP as fuck because it knocks you out for too long. It's incredibly boring and prevents you from having any sort of interaction (arr pee) with the abductors on their UFO. Which is fun when it happens. Abductors can't talk, but they can gesticulate as they remove your testicles.

Thoughts, tough guy?

by **crashmatusow** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:14 am #531445

Abductors detract more than they add to the round because most abductor players are shitters

by **cacogen** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:15 am #531447

I'm gonna put all your clothes on the floor of my spaceship where you can never get them again

by **crashmatusow** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:24 am #531451

I’ma teleport right next to you and card you and implant you in somebody without turning on wireless and dropping the fool somewhere they can’t get out of.

by **Shadowflame909** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:43 am #531457

before I respond I want to say

>2019

>2018

Now, yeah. Abductor might still be the only instant stun in the game. In exchange for them not killing and all, and being a side-antag.

The sleep can be done without, and maybe replaced with a paralysis. But I'm pretty sure its purpose is to hide the fact you're being abducted in the first place.

by **Anonmare** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:21 am #531469

Something of a necessity since the Abductor ship z-level is still accessible to the station radio and if you could look around and talk - it'd fuck them over too easy.
The other issue is that the radio disabler is actually sorta hacky and only EMPs the headset meaning it's super easy to turn back on after seevral seconds

by **wesoda25** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:15 am #531473

its just bad gameplay, way too OP. itd be nice if there was a mute mode to replace the sleep mode.

by **deedubya** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:12 am #531486

Should re-tune it to be more similar to cult stun. That stuns for much less time, and still gives plenty of time for a person to be dragged all the way to a conversion/sac rune. If there's enough time for a cultie to do that, there's plenty of time for an ayy to teleport/cuff/remove earpiece.

Also, by re-tuning it to be similar to cult stun, I'm also implying the single-use aspect of it as well. Perhaps make it so that the baton runs out of juice after a couple whacks, and they'll have to use a recharger on the ayy ship to top it back up? That way a single robust ayy can't just keep an entire room of people on the floor for several minutes.

by **Tlaltecuhtli** » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:29 pm #531536

aliens baton is strong but they have to keep a neutral alignment and big news: sleeping has counters aka chems that give u nosleep like coffee latte or chems that tick down sleeping fast like nuka cola (available everywhere) so if you dont like to shit out slimes and farting plasma you can just game up wear tinfoil and trick aliens by waking up when they least expect it and suicide bomb or some shit

by **confused rock** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:36 pm #531689

the baton can also cuff
I don't see how someone being headset disabled and cuffed is a risk

by **oranges** » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:50 pm #531693

intentional, so ayys don't turn into murderboners.

Would not change this.

by **wesoda25** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:03 am #531698

oranges wrote:intentional, so ayys don't turn into murderboners.

Would not change this.

Not even for a mute function? It would essentially be the same thing, but at least the victim would be a little bit more involved.

by **cacogen** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:11 am #531700

I don't have a lot of experience playing as an abductor. Only being disappeared forever or reduced to a naked madman as a latejoin head of staff. But first time I played one I was surprised that after the stun nerf the baton was as OP as it was. I guess I dismissed it as advanced alien tech you won't see very often that can only be used by abductors.

So genuine question, why would they turn into murderbonerers if the sleep duration was reduced? Or switched to a mute instead of a sleep, like wesoda says.

by **Shadowflame909** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:16 am #531702

All Ayys get is a stun baton, a rad gun, and surgery tools

If you yeet their stun baton via waking up in surgery somehow. Your basically gonna win any fight, since your able to escape without their help.

The sleep function is the only thing keeping Ayys alive when they end up kidnapping a changeling.

by **Anonmare** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:39 am #531752

Abductors are supposed to win 1v1 surprise encounters, it's their entire schtick. If you took away the sleep, they'd have to keep regularly applying the stun, which makes noise, and increases their odds of detection and makes their lives 100% harder. Abductors don't win fights, they're not supposed to be getting into fights. Your counterplay and RP is acting like enough of a loon for the station to realise something's wrong and get properly paranoid enough to group up with people whom you may not entirely trust and punish mute validhunters who prowl maint. Abductors exist to force conflict by encouraging grouping and discouraging going solo.

Also none of y'all better be calling out abductors as soon as you're teleported back, you're explicitly not supposed to remember.
Plus it's also a reference to "real-life" abductions with most abductees being asleep at the time

by **deedubya** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:04 am #531756

oranges wrote:intentional, so ayys don't turn into murderboners.

Would not change this.

What about changing the multiple-use aspect of it? I've personally been witness to situations where an ayy caught with his pants down has kept 5+ people out of commission by cycle whacking them with the baton. I believe an admin stepped in there, but this is one of the times that I believe a code solution would be more appropriate.

I don't think it's unreasonable to restrict it to only having a couple whacks per full charge. That doesn't nerf the sleep and abduct aspect of it and is still fully within the spirit of the abductors, but would prevent it from being used as an infinite one click I-win tool.

by **Shadowflame909** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:30 am #531758

It's long and tedious for an ayy to abduct that usually it'll be a round worth of effect for them to greentext.

Have you ever seen an abductor get higher then 8 in an hour?

Keep as is. Abductors are non harmful tryhards anyways. Nerfing it is like asking a traitor to hijack with 0 tc and a shuttle ETA of 10 minutes.

You'd be hurting it's chance of success. Because it's potential of harm is limited as is. So targeting it's tool of kidnapping will make it harder to kidnap over all.

Tldr: Run out of charge during a fight. The abductor is screwed.

by **deedubya** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:37 am #531759

Shadowflame909 wrote:Tldr: Run out of charge during a fight. The abductor is screwed.

That's the point. You shouldn't be getting into fights as an ayy. If you get caught and have to fight, you should be screwed, rather than be able to whack everyone that comes at you with a magic clicky stick that lays you out for 5 billion years.

by **Shadowflame909** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:33 am #531765

Except all other antagonists have alternatives to stun spam. Abductors don't.

by **cacogen** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:15 am #531768

Wesoda's suggestion functionally makes no difference, (i.e. stun + mute instead of sleep) except for making it less boring for the victim

by **Shadowflame909** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:49 pm #531827

It makes a lot of difference. Sleep and stunning are two different mechanics. With the majority of antags and ease of access to countering the second mechanic now (pump ups) whilst the first is unexpected.

by **Cobby** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:34 pm #532033

it doesn't make a lot of difference just opens up potential counterplay that previously didn't exist.

if hardstun and mute is functionally equivalent to sleep then why are you even posting this thread? It either does something (hence why you want it changed) or it doesn't and you're just arguing to argue.

by **cacogen** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 pm #532086

It keeps the victim awake, which makes it less boring for them. That's the only difference I had in mind when I made that post. But the sleep or stun/mute only needs to be long enough to cuff and remove their headset. And you have a magical baton that does the cuffing for you so unless you have Parkinson's that shouldn't take very long at all.

I'm guessing you like to play abductor because of how OP the baton is.

by **Cobby** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:44 pm #532091

yes you're correct, I just believe that's not "functionally equivalent" because they can now interact with the abductor/world in a way they couldn't previously which was the point i was trying to make.

I personally don't play much abductor, but I think there's plenty enough opportunities to roleplay when you have a wacky objective that people don't follow so i'm not exactly sold on something that allows for some, albeit extremely limited, communication under the idea people are going to "RP" there either, especially when it's not even objective-bound.

I think the baton should apply some sort of status effect that removes the sleep/stun/whatever entirely when someone else gets said effect sorta like the chronolegionaire. That would fix the "I have 3-4 people chainsleep'd" issue.

by **cacogen** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:04 pm #532094

If they're paralysed and unable to talk, what interactions do you have in mind?

The ability to roleplay afterwards is unrelated to the sleep. It's boring tedium that's much longer than necessary. Plus as you point out you can keep multiple people down forever with it. You're thinking pretty narrowly if you haven't considered a situation where the mute wears off after the person is on the ship and unable to call for help. Plus you're taking roleplay in a very formal, boring way. All I mean by roleplay is reacting in character. I'm not talking realistically, or believably. I'm not talking about writing a novel with the me emote. I'd just like to be able to make light of the ridiculousness of the situation while waiting for them to operate on me and then send me back to the station. Instead of watching my character through a little circle in the middle of the screen for five minutes, without being able to hear anything.

by **oranges** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:59 pm #532110

if you want to change it, it will need to mute them and then auto strip the headset

by **wesoda25** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:05 pm #532113

oranges wrote:if you want to change it, it will need to mute them and then auto strip the headset

Would an emp pulse option be better then?

also if you do like that, Need I wait til antag freeze is up or can I do it now?

by **Shadowflame909** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:53 pm #532138

Honestly with all the counters, Adrenaline Sacs, Pump Ups, Jaunt, Molar Surgery, stimpacks, literally every other AOE skill that can be used whilst stunned.

You'd be really cucking the abductors if you remove their ability to sleep, and thus permanently allow them to continue with the surgery/abducting. Because EVERYTHING in this game has some sort of counter to stuns, one way or another.

No one really counters Sleeping.

So during action, as soon as someone gets away from the abductor and reveals that there are abductors. Either through the innate abilities, antags have, or through slight preparation...

Abductors will find that their peaceful nonharmful job. Suddenly got a lot harder.

So much for "little difference."

by **cacogen** » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:58 pm #532147

just make it shorter holy shit
and preferably make the sleeps limited (if they aren't already) but we can argue about that later

by **Anonmare** » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:36 am #532179

Stuns and mutes have workarounds, like antistuns and hiveminds.

The change I would make is make it so that you can only have one target asleep at a time and have it remain active as long as you're within 7 tiles of the target, whereupon they're safe to use the headset disabler on without you needing to worry they're going to shout your A/S/L in the seconds it's going to take you fumbling around with it. In addition to allowing you to disable someone who walks in on you, if you're quick, or choose between getting called out by the guy who saw you or by the abductee you abandoned

by **oranges** » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:41 pm #532369

An ideas man sent me this communicado.

After decoding it's runes, I think it could work

by **Taylork2** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:52 pm #534395

Well, technically Coders can nerf/remove the stun/sleep. That way once the competent abductors finally get their first two abductions, they'll switch to using the shrink Ray, so that way everyone they abduct instantly loses all their worn/carried items. Because it's so much better that abductors cause you to lose all your gear wherever they catch you.

If you've never experienced shrink raying before, you should.
It's the only alternative to the abductor baton they get that basically disables/mutes/stops combat. While not as cheesable or spammable as their baton, it's much nastier.
Hell abductors might start stealing N2O, setting it up in hallways then shrink raying anyone who walks through. That'd actually be fun to see. I imagine creative abductors would be a plague on the station.

Really the only thing the shrink ray doesn't cover or help against is changelings.

by **Shadowflame909** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:21 pm #534404

They're side antags Taylork2

They're barely even antags because they cant kill.

Abductors would be banned for n20 flooding with shrink ray cheese.

by **Taylork2** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:00 pm #534410

Shadowflame909 wrote:They're side antags Taylork2

They're barely even antags because they cant kill.

Abductors would be banned for n20 flooding with shrink ray cheese.

Just N2O flooding, maybe. But if they're doing it to disable/sleep people for abductions and they do get abductions out of it, I imagine most admins either wouldn't stop it or it would be perfectly appealable if the admin did hit the ban button.
Abductors just slept people, didn't permanently take them out of the round, and didn't directly cause loss of life.

But either way about that issue, Abductors are certainly antags. They can card and subvert the AI to help their mission, they can give out abductor gear to other antags after they complete their objectives, they can also cause the Captain/RD to go insane, onehuman themselves and order a kill all order through the AI.
If they can't anymore, they used to to be able to give the objectives that everyone else is a single person or to paint the station with blood.
Both of which would give antag permission, as I've seen murdersprees started when rng gives someone competent in combat antag permission and I've had admins tell me I have antag permission with the "single person" objective.

If nothing else, the tooltips explain how to and encourage abductors to card the AI. This implies that either abductors can hold the AI hostage the entire round, subvert it to help on their mission, or kill it to get it out of the way.

At best stopping abductors from doing anything outside of boinking people on the head, and then brainwashing said persons is a massive stifle on creative freedom.

by **Cobby** » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:36 pm #534458

If you murderbone directly or indirectly (such as via AI) as abductor you can get in trouble.

by **Reyn** » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:13 pm #534622

Why is the abductor baton sleep in place for so long? Simple! So abductors can do the surgery and yeet you out without the defenseless scientist getting shanked, Or so they can deal with other issues. Or so that the scientist can come down and back. It's not like a baton stun, where someone can just simply drag you to sec. There has to be some set up, the researcher has to scan someone to bring them back up, which takes time... It's actually pretty reasonable when you realize the ammount of time it takes for abductors to do their thing.

However, On the flipside, if this baton can be used by non abductors, it is ABSURDLY op. Not going to lie. Like, the reason it's so good is that it's pretty much needed for abductors to do their job, because their job takes a lot of time and prep. This isn't the case for almost anyone else, where it is absurdly broken

Perhaps make the baton only work for abductors if that isn't already the case. Either way, The sleep is there for a reason, and it's not death. Plus, if you don't want to be abducted, don't wander off alone, or stay away from cameras.

by **Anonmare** » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:36 pm #534802

The baton is already Abductor only. It'd be ungodly OP if a non Abductor could use it.

by **cacogen** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:54 am #534994

it's amazing something this simple to resolve attracts so much dialogue and no resolution

1. shorten the sleep to something sane
2. make it so it can't be reapplied while the person is already asleep (if this isn't the case already)

by **Shadowflame909** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:03 am #534999

because its not that simple and the consensus is people don't want the abductors being fucking merked because they're not made for combat

Unless you propose giving abductors deathsquad armor to countact this

by **cacogen** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:11 am #535002

the baton cuffs people. you don't even have to bring cuffs. you just click them and it does it for you.

by **Shadowflame909** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:15 am #535003

cacogen wrote:the baton cuffs people. you don't even have to bring cuffs. you just click them and it does it for you.

Okay? And how many antags can counter this

The answer is all of them.

Read the thread nerd sleep is the only viable counter to any humanoid antag (and powergamer)

by **cacogen** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:40 am #535037

Security manages to bring most people in without having to put them to sleep. Most people aren't antags. Being an antag doesn't mean you have the thing that removes cuffs. The sleep's length is overkill. I'm not saying remove it. I'm saying shorten it to something reasonable. Or have it wear off once they're on the ship.

by **Shadowflame909** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:28 am #535042

Security also fully strips people, has the majority, and generally don't have to stay in the same cell as their prisoner.

The reality your idea would work in, is when bluespacing people to the ship traps them into an admin prison cell and the abductors can do surgery from a ranged distance.

Otherwise your staying asleep to keep abductors functional.

by **cacogen** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:08 am #535049

So the baton sleeps for two minutes, paralyses for 14 seconds and takes three seconds to cuff people. The cuffs take 45 seconds to remove. It takes 1 minute to unbuckle yourself from the operating table when you're cuffed. It doesn't require recharging. You can induce sleep on people who are already asleep and stun people who are already stunned. A regular baton knocks you down (you can still crawl) for 5 seconds after a 2-second delay (10 confusion, 60 stamina damage) and has a cooldown of 2.5 seconds between uses. With a default cell, you can use it 10 times before recharging.

The sleep becomes unneeded once the victim is on the ship. It should be 30 seconds at most, without the ability to reapply it to people who are already asleep. Now that abductors have a recharger, the baton should require recharging too.

I've edited this after poring over the code and it's amazing how overpowered this baton is compared to the regular one. I'm legit turning on abductor.

by **Shadowflame909** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:41 am #535241

Give an inch and players will take a mile.

If abductors cannot sleep crewmembers on the ship. They cannot win.

You are aware of the fact that antags arent stoppable without sleep, but since you aren't arguing this. Let me show you what a crew can do when it's aware of kidnappers.

Quantum Spin Inverter
Bluespace Body Bag
Dental Implant
Autonomy Mutation
Void Magnet Mutation
Fireball Mutation
Neurotoxin Gland
TTV Bomb Implant
Black Burning Extract
Just missing one arm to make you uncuffable.

One, We have rules that say you're not supposed to use most of these against security for justifiable arrests. But if it's against an antagonist, it's all off the table.

Secondly, Might I remind you, ONCE AGAIN this side-antagonist has no desire or even justifiable reason to get into fights with its abductees. That would bring pain for them and they would potentially lose the fight and two, they need their abductee alive for it to count towards the point total and greentext total. Also three, murderbone would get them banned because abductors cannot do that.

So for the life of me, you're leaving me very confused as to why you would EVER give the crew a fighting chance against an antagonist that's not supposed to be fighting at all and is disincentivized from it. There is a big likelihood that one of those items on that list won't be obtained sure. But, as soon as abductors get announced? It's VERY VERY easy to obtain the majority of that.

Thank you for listening to my ted talk instead of trying to look for one flaw in a generally cohesive play-style of /tg/.

Removing sleep would ruin abductors and make it impossible to do.

by **cacogen** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:26 am #535249

Having looked at the code, what I want is to reduce the sleep to something reasonable, prevent it being used on people who are already asleep and give it finite uses. Security batons used to paralyse for 20 seconds way back in the day before all the stun nerfs. This baton induces sleep for two minutes, requires no recharging and has no cooldown between uses. You can keep as many people under as you can stun and sleep for as long as you want. It's insanely overpowered and no fun for the victims.

by **oranges** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:52 pm #535330

IT'S INTENDED TO BE YOU FOOL, OTHERWISE ABDUCTORS WILL START MUDERBONERING.

by **cacogen** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:35 am #535420

no dad

by **oranges** » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:28 am #535434

TheY"RE GONNA FRICKEN MURDERBONE

by **Reyn** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:36 pm #536285

oranges wrote:TheY"RE GONNA FRICKEN MURDERBONE

For once, I feel like oranges is making a good fucking point. If they can't reasonably capture people through normal means, They're going to either kill or beat the everliving shit out of people.

Unless oranges is saying this ironicly, in which case Feel free to point and laugh at me.