[Dreathil] CMDR Gungnir - Note

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I was told to still use the Ban template

BYOND account: CMDR Gungnir
Character name: Riley Bailey
Ban type: Note
Ban length: N/A
Ban reason: After being killed by a Nightmare (Who did rather unreasonably overkill round remove them) proceeded to get extremely angry and enraged in d-chat, culminating in them telling them "Fucking die IRL cunt" "You fucking disgrace of a human being" "the kind the world's better without" understands to be careful with their language. Rule 1+10 Invoked in ahelp.
Time ban was placed: 2021-07-20 16:22:14
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 166308
Why you think you should be unbanned: While the wording itself, especially as presented in the note, looks rather bad, with the context of the moment, it's...nowhere near as bad as it seems. Ignoring the context of the round prior to my incident with the Nightmare (which was a lot of ShitSec to deal with on my rare antag round), the third part, "the kind the world's better without" was never said to the player in question. Upon his death, I did hit him with the first two, and when someone told me to calm down and take a step back, I said that "Some dude fucking going that god damn ham over-the-line murderbone round remove bullshit" "is a fucking asshole" "the kind the world's better without".

While I admit that it was said, and that it was still rather excessive, it was never said TO him, only about him. With the note in its current format, however, it makes it look like it was nailing him down with those things back to back, which makes the other two look far worse. Because as an Australian, I sometimes forget that Cunt isn't just on par with "fucking asshole" everywhere else, and "fucking die" is functionally the same as "fuck off and die" which nobody would call a 'Kill yourself' comment; however the admin (and the implications from the third comment being listed like that) imply that it was/is.

References of good conduct: Up until this point, I have managed to get by without any notes. While I have salted from time to time, as Dead Chat is known to do, nothing I have done has ever been severe enough to warrant a note.

Anything else we should know: I will admit that I was definitely toeing the line. My choice of words was not great, and I directed my salt at the player as a person, rather than simply their actions. However upon telling the story to people, I was encouraged to try and appeal the Note, as they thought, personally, that it only warranted a verbal warning, rather than a permanent mark on my account.

This seems like a good place to point at the rules on Appeals, and state that I personally believe it invokes Both Reasons for an appeal. The wording on the note "culminating in them telling them "Fucking die IRL cunt" "You fucking disgrace of a human being" "the kind the world's better without" " implies that it was being said to him back to back. The admin may very easily have missed the rest of the conversation, but the fact remains that it is inaccurate. Furthermore, Reason 2. Without the context, both of the round and the missing chunk of conversation, it paints a far worse picture of me, of a particularly dangerous variety. Nobody likes suicide baiters, but without the context it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume it was, which would affect a perception of me when a judgment is being made.

Further...Notes seem like something that should either be for Severe Behaviour, or Repeated Behaviour. And while this was the worst of it, the only repeated behaviour is the occasional Salting in dead chat, which you'd have to note the entire userbase for at that point. I suspect that the other player also got noted for what they did, and if that is the case, if I am allowed I would like to make a case for theirs being removed, too. A once-off behaviour doesn't deserve a permanent mark.

(please forgive any rambling or bad wording, it's almost 5AM, I just wanted to get this out while I still had the memories/facts fresh in my mind)

[Dreathtil]

Glad to see you took the time to appeal this.

Any logs used are from round
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... nd-166308/

To first address the rage
It's very understandable that you were mad at the situation as you were upset enough to ahelp regarding it as well. The Nightmare was rather excessive in how they took the time to decap and brain extract after killing, albeit I was personally more so okay with it given Nightmares are allowed to murderbone. So I can see how you'd get a little more mad that revive was a far off hope. However I stepped in at the moment you said "Fucking die IRL cunt" and the other points as it appeared to of gone too far. In fact it was interpreted as being over the top enough that While AdipemDragon was handling looking into the Nightmare and having a brief discussion the Nightmare also ahelped regarding it which I didn't particularly factor until after I had already started writing and finishing the note, as I felt in a vacuum was just generally not good to begin with.

Second to start addressing the issue of it being Factually Incorrect, if you feel it paints things in an untrue light, it is to my understanding that all 3 quotations I used, were made after they had died with the first two at least having zero back in forth conversation between the two of you, and were actually in d-chat to hear you say it.
The following logs are from the Nightmare (noodlecat/Nex) dieing up until the 3rd quotation that I took used in the note and a little bit after, so I disagree that it was not particularly directed at them in some form as you very quickly made the quote after they died and even used You in the second quotation. Note the brief Commentary in bold after each line.

[2021-07-20 15:58:07.103] EMOTE: 15:58:07.103] EMOTE: noodlecat/(Nex) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Dormitories (93,108,3))
[2021-07-20 15:58:11.289] SAY: 15:58:11.289] SAY: noodlecat/(Nex) (DEAD) "fucking miner" (Dormitories (93,108,3)) This is to highlight that the nightmare became active in dead-chat
[2021-07-20 15:58:12.709] SAY: 15:58:12.709] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "Fucking die IRL cunt" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2)) This and the line bellow are the first two offenders Said only
[2021-07-20 15:58:17.044] SAY: 15:58:17.044] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "You fucking disgrace of a human being" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:58:28.435] SAY: 15:58:28.435] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "No fuck you, Toma" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2)) Following few lines are after Toma (Adipem) Had incorrectly said it involved the bigotry rule and told me later they moreso mean't rule 10
[2021-07-20 15:58:37.224] SAY: 15:58:37.224] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "Yeah, what rule?" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:58:51.838] SAY: 15:58:51.838] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "Rule 11's bigotry" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:58:54.127] SAY: 15:58:54.127] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "How, exactly" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:58:56.235] SAY: 15:58:56.235] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "was that bigotry?" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:59:13.886] SAY: 15:59:13.886] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "Nah fuck you" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:59:33.757] SAY: 15:59:33.757] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "Some dude fucking going that god damn ham over-the-line murderbone round remove bullshit" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:59:39.117] SAY: 15:59:39.117] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "is a fucking asshole" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:59:43.186] SAY: 15:59:43.186] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "the kind the world's better without" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2)) This is the Third line I quoted
[2021-07-20 15:59:57.694] SAY: 15:59:57.694] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "I'll fucking celebrate when he's hit by a truck" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2)) Happened a bit after the third and decided against quoting it

Again regarding this being intepretable as not directed. For the first Quote as in the ahelp I had described that the Die IRL comment was rather ambiguous with regards to whether or not it was directed at them and if that truly is the case you should be more careful in the future. The Second Quotation was made with You as part of it, while the third and any subsequent that I didn't particularly factor were made with the other party clearly in dead-chat.

[2021-07-20 16:06:54.746] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey): So, the nightmare that is allowed to kill and muderbone, even if the situation is warranted some action a brief talking with etc, does not warrant you to tell them to kill themselves IRL.
[2021-07-20 16:07:28.144] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): I didn't tell him to kill himself IRL I said he should die. They're rather distinct.
[2021-07-20 16:07:50.026] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): One's "I'll celebrate it when it happens" the other is "Hang yourself"
[2021-07-20 16:08:30.582] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): Note that I'm not exactly proud of it but saying I told him to kill himself is a rather major accusation against me as a person so I'm going to defend the difference.
[2021-07-20 16:08:36.265] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem)->CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey): "Fucking die IRL cunt" is extremely loose with wording there.
[2021-07-20 16:09:25.348] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey)->Dreathtil/(Alysha Gottem): It is, I'll give you that much. As I said I'm not proud. But- The intent was not what you are saying, and that is something that really matters to me there. Because it's the one line I DON'T cross no matter what.

Regarding this being a form of Severe Bad Behavior or Repeated Behavior. I at least see it to of clearly gone past the line in some capacity that it warranted a note, and while in your words you feel it wasn't directed at them, I as an admin fully felt the need to step in before they actually did in fact ahelp themself, a sort of that's just not cool to say at all kind of intervention. Quickly saw it as being some rather directed toxic rage. Thus being a clear case of Severe Behavior.

As for the point about it being untrue in the sense of your rage culminated with you telling them should die and other rather rage induced insults, and you thinking it implies you were suicide baiting them. Given your pretty good note history, I can offer to rewrite the "culminating in" wording of the note with your suggestion, so long as it doesn't rewrite the rest of the note. however I personally feel the note does paint a decently accurate picture of what happened (A Player got mad and stepped over the line in some manner or another) for how complex and to your benefit does highlight the reason why you were mad.

Unless Headmins disagree, and that the situation did not warrant a note and I should remove it entirely

Edit: Forgot to post Relevant Ahelp Log for 3 Text Block

[CMDR_Gungnir]

I don't necessarily agree with a lot of this, and to start with just a personal disagreement regarding the Nightmare's conduct (and your seeing it as "personally more okay with it"), is that Rule RP5 for Manuel states that Antagonists should be attempting "to make the round more fun, more exciting and more enjoyable for everyone. " Decapping, hiding heads, and carving them is not doing that at all. This is not an attempt to say "Nightmare MUST be punished AAAAAAAAAAAA", but to point out that it wasn't just "Local man gets mad at antagonist who is allowed to murderbone, for murderboning, rule 10 applies".

Unfortunately though, I kinda feel like you're misrepresenting me here. I don't think it's intentional, but I specifically mentioned that Quote #3 was said in response to someone else, and you responded to that by merely digging up the logs that it was SAID. Unfortunately I don't know the proper formatting to list the logs how you did, but I'll just copy/paste them all the same.

[2021-07-20 15:59:09.959] SAY: 15:59:09.959] SAY: AdhocSyn/(Ms. Silence) (DEAD) "ok ngl riley you do need to step back some and cool off" (Central Tram Dock (126,118,3))
[2021-07-20 15:59:13.886] SAY: 15:59:13.886] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "Nah fuck you" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:59:33.757] SAY: 15:59:33.757] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "Some dude fucking going that god damn ham over-the-line murderbone round remove bullshit" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:59:39.117] SAY: 15:59:39.117] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "is a fucking asshole" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2))
[2021-07-20 15:59:43.186] SAY: 15:59:43.186] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "the kind the world's better without" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2)) It was never said to him, but was telling someone else my opinion on the guy
[2021-07-20 15:59:57.694] SAY: 15:59:57.694] SAY: CMDR Gungnir/(Riley Bailey) (DEAD) "I'll fucking celebrate when he's hit by a truck" (Port Tram Underpass (74,120,2)) Because while I kinda wouldn't actually celebrate, having calmed down, and am far from proud that I, in my anger, said that I'd celebrate someone's death, with the context, and fact that it was in direct response to someone, firmly dispels any notion that it was intended as suicide baiting, and that it was even aimed at him. Quote #3 was in direct response to someone else.

I would personally like to see the note removed, because when the context shows that it wasn't aimed at him and 'cunt' not having been used with anywhere near as much weight as people think, all we're left with is the equivalent of "Fuck off and die" and an admittedly harsh insult. And while a bit excessive perhaps, would hardly be noteworthy (especially since, as it shows, it wasn't 'rather directed toxic rage' it was an initial jab at the guy, and then just an overwhelmed lashing-out-at-people-who-tell-me-to-calm-down). No worse than half the shit you see in Dead Chat on any other day. It's especially excessive in the current format that the note is written in. If it must stay regardless, I'm of the opinion that it should instead simply focus on what happened. "Salted a little too hard in Dead Chat after an unreasonably overkill Round Removal." Because I don't think it's possible to provide, within a note, the necessary context required for the it to not make me look significantly worse to an admin with only the note to go on, in its current format.

[Dreathtil]

Thanks for the followup

I would personally like to see the note removed, because when the context shows that it wasn't aimed at him and 'cunt' not having been used with anywhere near as much weight as people think, all we're left with is the equivalent of "Fuck off and die" and an admittedly harsh insult. And while a bit excessive perhaps, would hardly be noteworthy (especially since, as it shows, it wasn't 'rather directed toxic rage' it was an initial jab at the guy, and then just an overwhelmed lashing-out-at-people-who-tell-me-to-calm-down). No worse than half the shit you see in Dead Chat on any other day. It's especially excessive in the current format that the note is written in. If it must stay regardless, I'm of the opinion that it should instead simply focus on what happened. "Salted a little too hard in Dead Chat after an unreasonably overkill Round Removal." Because I don't think it's possible to provide, within a note, the necessary context required for the it to not make me look significantly worse to an admin with only the note to go on, in its current format.

Understandable that you would rather have the note removed then edited, but I stand by the point that I will not remove it and have made my offer to add some more clarity on your half (at your suggestion as well). As I did say to you in a brief ahelp after the incident as well, notes fade away after enough time and admins shouldn't be paying attention to them, and given your already good history I don't particularly think 1 blemish on your very positive record is damning at all, it is a sign of a severe instance of behavior though and deserves a warning/notation in some regard, the way I saw the situation.

You got mad, it happens.
And if this instance is, just a one off thing that's good, the note will fade away in due time! Personally I think you should/will have no trouble with it fading away in due time. But if things change and you get absolutely enraged again, (scenario depending) who would be the person you wished were dead, how would that player react, would an admin be prompted to step in, and would the admin handling the issue know about this previous instance? You aren't being particularly productive by wanting people you get mad at dead, and believing the "world is better off without them" feels just depressing to listen too in a vacuum in a game about 2dspessmens.

At this point its up to Headmins to weigh in. The Thread will still be open if you have anything else to say, but I don't think I will change my attitude of removing it unless a Headmin steps in. Let me know if you do change your mind on my offer to reword part of your note, again it is your suggestion how I word what I offered to change. I'll see it at some point (before I go to bed, after this followup, when I wake up, or just over the course of time until a Headmin steps in replies and locks this thread)

Thank you very much for your time

[Cobby]

If the note was initially materially incorrect, per the rules you can only ask it to be amended unless that amended note falls under the "not true" or "unjustifiably harsh".

If you did the thing and it accurately depicts that you did the thing, then the note can NOT be appealed. Its important this happens because, like you kinda wrote in your appeal about not having history, there will never be a history of repeated behavior if at each point someone appeals because they dont have previous notes regarding the issue.

If you said "Fucking die IRL cunt", "You fucking disgrace of a human being", and "the kind the world's better without" then those are not being unfairly attributed to you. Without going deep into peanut land, if it takes an entire forum thread to contextualize these comments down to several poorly worded messages, it seems odd to suggest that the current note (or any amending) is going to be unjustifiably harsh when the person receiving those messages and everyone else in deadchat was not privvy to that context at the time it was said.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

If you said "Fucking die IRL cunt", "You fucking disgrace of a human being", and "the kind the world's better without" then those are not being unfairly attributed to you. Without going deep into peanut land, if it takes an entire forum thread to contextualize these comments down to several poorly worded messages, it seems odd to suggest that the current note (or any amending) is going to be unjustifiably harsh when the person receiving those messages and everyone else in deadchat was not privvy to that context at the time it was said.

Everyone else in deadchat, and the person receiving it, was privvy to the context. The context to #3 is in the logs that I provided, which were all in round. The point is that with the context provided, no rational person would ever take it to be more than just your average, maybe higher end dead chat salt.

The only piece of context that I've given that WASN'T in-game is that as an Australian I sometimes forget that the rest of the world hates 'Cunt' with a burning passion. Which, fair enough anyway, that's just a fuck-up mostly.

But,

If it must stay regardless, I'm of the opinion that it should instead simply focus on what happened. "Salted a little too hard in Dead Chat after an unreasonably overkill Round Removal." Because I don't think it's possible to provide, within a note, the necessary context required for the it to not make me look significantly worse to an admin with only the note to go on, in its current format.

In my final paragraph, Idid give a recommendation on how I believe that it should be amended. Without a mountain of context from within the round itself, the sentences shown paint an unjustifiably harsh portrait of me that would lead to false impressions. That recommended amendment there conveys what occurred without including things that require the context, and don't downplay it.

I'm not saying, and have never said, that I didn't do anything wrong. What I said was still wrong, even without the inaccurate and harsh framing that the wording of the note provides. I'm willing to accept a verdict, I just want my concerns answered, so that I can understand it.

TL;DR, you wanted a suggestion on how I'd like to see the note amended, here it is
I'm of the opinion that it should instead simply focus on what happened. "Salted a little too hard in Dead Chat after an unreasonably overkill Round Removal." It's short, it's concise, it's clean, and explains what happened without using quotes from the round that, when combined together and presented without the context from WITHIN THE ROUND, create a far harsher, and inaccurate portrayal of events. It doesn't have to by my exact wording, but I believe that it's simply impossible to provide the quotes without making an unfair portrayal.

[Fikou]

Further...Notes seem like something that should either be for Severe Behaviour, or Repeated Behaviour. And while this was the worst of it, the only repeated behaviour is the occasional Salting in dead chat, which you'd have to note the entire userbase for at that point. I suspect that the other player also got noted for what they did, and if that is the case, if I am allowed I would like to make a case for theirs being removed, too. A once-off behaviour doesn't deserve a permanent mark.

If notes were for repeated behaviour, they would be never applied unless you expect every admin to be in a hivemind brain linked with every other admin to remember every interaction that has happened.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

Having had time to think about it, and reading the other responses here, keeping the note is fair enough. While I liked having a clean history, it's important to note it down, bad day or not, it's still something that happened.

The request was for ways to rephrase the note. Personally my go to would be the one I had suggested earlier, of "Salted a little too hard in Dead Chat after an unreasonably overkill Round Removal."

However, you said you'd prefer if it kept the most of it, so if I can't have it amended in the way recommended before, I would be willing to accept "eventually resulting in them saying things including '(A)', '(B)' and later on '(C)'." Or something along those lines, as this would remove the false impression that the three quotes were all said back to back.

(And having had time to think about it and talk to some others, I think you were quite lenient having it simply be a Note, and I do appreciate that generosity)

[Dreathtil]

However, you said you'd prefer if it kept the most of it, so if I can't have it amended in the way recommended before, I would be willing to accept "eventually resulting in them saying things including '(A)', '(B)' and later on '(C)'." Or something along those lines, as this would remove the false impression that the three quotes were all said back to back.

Glad to see you took the time in this regard to consider things and give me a follow up that met with my initial offer to reword the Culminating In part!

I've bolded the parts I'll be adding/editing for clarity on your request.
Keep in mind I'm mostly doing this for your benefit as I particularly see nothing wrong with the note in its initial form (aside from culminated in is perhaps too short to summarize what happened) but I can understand if you find some aspects perhaps not worded with enough detail as you did have a good record until this. You took the time to appeal and think about what happened. I'm probably being too lenient here from my end, but I think your suggestion is much better worded then my original short culminated in

"After being killed by a Nightmare (Who did rather unreasonably overkill round remove them) proceeded to get extremely angry and enraged in d-chat, eventually resulting in them saying things including "Fucking die IRL cunt" "You fucking disgrace of a human being" and later on "the kind the world's better without" understands to be careful with their language. Rule 1+10 Invoked in ahelp."

I'll edit the note and lock this thread after you've let me know you are okay with this change!

[CMDR_Gungnir]

That's fine by me. The event still happened, so the note should definitely be there, but that wording, and especially the 'and later on' prevents false assumptions that they were three messages said back to back. This rewording is fine by me.

[Dreathtil]

Done. Thank you for your suggestion and time!

Locking up this thread for it to be moved, seeing as this appears resolved.