Security no longer spawning with batons

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sinfulbliss
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Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by sinfulbliss » #621518

Latejoin security officers are now at a serious disadvantage compared to a shiftstart security officer. It is somewhat common for all the batons that spawn in brig to be gone after 10-20 minutes, especially on highpop, and you are extremely vulnerable until you can find a way to secure a replacement. In many rounds this isn't possible due to the state of the station.

The goal as stated in the PR was to prevent security officers from powergaming two batons in their belt, and encouraging interaction with cargo. The result is that now many officers have no baton, instead of two. Skyrat has modified this change to instead remove batons from the secbelts that come in lockers, but allow officers to spawn with one. This in my experience has been much more effective at forcing officers to only use one baton, since there's no second baton to loot, and also prevents latejoin officers from getting screwed without a baton the whole shift.

As a sidenote, the evidence bags that now spawn in officers' bags aren't ever used (on LRP at least, I can't speak for MRP), and contribute to significant plastic waste around the station.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by BeeSting12 » #621521

Wouldn't this change just cause security officers to loot a second sec belt if they'd prefer to powergame in that manner, screwing latejoins even more? This basically turns latejoin security officers into a loot pinata. Disablers run out too quickly and flashes can be ineffective. The stunbaton is the only reliable defense method they have until they can get their full kit from the brig. If powergaming two batons in the belt is actually a problem, then my suggested fix would be as sinfulbliss said, removing the stunbaton from the secbelt and allowing sec officers to spawn one. A few could be kept in the armory to allow for transfers into security/lost batons. This also allows for that additional cargo interaction in case officers want to powergame with the two batons or if they lose their one baton.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by sinfulbliss » #621525

BeeSting12 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:39 pm Wouldn't this change just cause security officers to loot a second sec belt if they'd prefer to powergame in that manner, screwing latejoins even more?
Yeah, this happens occasionally, although it's not usually selfish officers stealing a second. The more common situation is a shiftstart officer replacing a baton that was stolen from them during the shift, thus causing a latejoin not to have one. Or, even more commonly, the lockers being looted by non-sec, either due to break-ins or freely as a result of a high-threat nukie/cult/blob/rev round in which brig gear is distributed for crew to help fight the threat.

Meanwhile the latejoin seccie that came at the 12 minute mark is SOL, and will be essentially replaced by any crewmember that got to a seclocker before him.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Helios » #621528

That's why there is a security checkpoint in Arrivals
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by sinfulbliss » #621529

Helios wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:37 pm That's why there is a security checkpoint in Arrivals
Does not have a secbelt or baton.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #621530

Helios wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:37 pm That's why there is a security checkpoint in Arrivals
for assistants easy access.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Pandarsenic » #621560

Just get lasers instead :)
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by iprice » #621569

Wrote most of this on the PR but since there's a thread, I agree, anyone who wants to play dual batons is just going to take a second at the expense of anyone later joining. See also engineering where it's pretty pointless late joining because engineers dont actually spawn with the gear they need for their job and it's all been tided by the 5 minute mark. Are we going to have to administratively monitor sec to see who loots multiple batons and is this going to be against the rules?

Also concerned about reduction in non lethal weapons (and lets face it, disablers just aren't all that) when we expect security to use non lethal means by policy, and currently do not accept the excuse "i didn't have a non lethal weapon".

But hey, cross both those bridges when we get to them.

Also anything involving interdepartmental co-operation tends to suck. I guess sec co-ordinating and going and standing imposingly in cargo until they get their extra batons could become the new meta (until cargo gets the hint and does it without sec showing up), but I always had hit and miss experiences with cargo. And science. And atmospherics. I.e. all inter-departmental co-operations that have been forced on medical at any point.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #621582

Coders will not stop until security is forced to detain criminals by grouping up and chain shoving them into a wall. If you harm intent a criminal and punch him you WILL be banned
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by cacogen » #621611

This is one of those situation where a change is proposed that at least some of the maintainers champion, everyone predicts what will happen ahead of time and tells them this, the change goes through anyway and the people who actually play the game have to deal with it until they're willing to admit there's a problem and let it be fixed. I think scientists still have to build their own R&D console roundstart because only the RD and weirdly the other heads of staff start with access to research.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by oranges » #621621

letting people hoard batons is an admin issue.

You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Pandarsenic » #621637

Wait, so is coming to the station late and finding all the sec belts without their batons intended

This is worse than joining as a miner to find no PKA left because Timmy TwoPKAs wants to Gamer the megafauna, because at least if that happens, you can print plasma cutters and still get minerals
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Farquaar » #621639

Pandarsenic wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:10 am Just get lasers instead :)
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by sinfulbliss » #621669

oranges wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:35 pm letting people hoard batons is an admin issue.
It's not people hoarding batons. It boils down to: why wouldn't the best melee items in the game be looted on highpop LRP by the 15 minute mark?
oranges wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:35 pm You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.
The primary tool used by a given job shouldn't be walled behind cargo's competence. Perhaps secondary tools, but this would be the equivalent of forcing latejoin miners and doctors to order PKAs and surgery tools through cargo.

Why this change over, say, officers spawning with batons but secbelts not having them? Is there any merit to this over that?
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Cobby » #621674

Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Pandarsenic » #621759

Baton on belt and/or spare batons in the armory would be a really nice way to make them still lootable and available to people who need replacements but less prone to Three Belts McGee becoming the god of death and leaving every latejoiner high and dry
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Mothblocks » #621763

Spare batons in the armory was what the PR was based off of originally, IIRC. Sounds like you have your easy feature right there.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by oranges » #621882

sinfulbliss wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:34 pm
oranges wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:35 pm letting people hoard batons is an admin issue.
It's not people hoarding batons. It boils down to: why wouldn't the best melee items in the game be looted on highpop LRP by the 15 minute mark?
Because people aren't supposed to have them unless they work for the security team? That would be the roleplay aspect
sinfulbliss wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:34 pm
oranges wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:35 pm You can order plenty more through cargo and if you can't staff and run a competent cargo dept that's a player issue.
The primary tool used by a given job shouldn't be walled behind cargo's competence. Perhaps secondary tools, but this would be the equivalent of forcing latejoin miners and doctors to order PKAs and surgery tools through cargo.

Why this change over, say, officers spawning with batons but secbelts not having them? Is there any merit to this over that?
We absolutely disagree on this point, it is absolutely okay to gate parts of the game behind player competence and I expect and demand that cargo are capable of ordering crates.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by cacogen » #621901

oranges wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:23 pm I expect and demand that cargo are capable of ordering crates.
Saying this doesn't do anything
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Armhulen » #621904

cacogen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:38 am
oranges wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:23 pm I expect and demand that cargo are capable of ordering crates.
Saying this doesn't do anything
It's preventing people from changing that fact because hes blocking it
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Pandarsenic » #621905

Okay so sort of weird questions:
  • Policy-wise, is cargo required to order what other departments tell them to?
  • What does security do if cargo just says "no, get fucked, we spent it all on guns and on emitters to open our guns?" Arrest them with your 0 batons?
  • What do you do in a rev round as a latejoiner sec, where even leaving the shuttle is struggle and you are (in theory) already spending a bunch of your budget on mindshields if revolution hasn't overrun cargo??
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Shadowflame909 » #621908

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Armhulen » #621910

Cobby wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:52 pm Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.
this is pretty cool
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Mothblocks » #621912

what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by cacogen » #621913

Nah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them. There are a million different reasons why an order may not be fulfilled, so it's stupid to get bogged down on any one example that people can think of here. Even if the order is fulfilled, it's a huge pain in the ass to have to wait on cargo each shift for a job item you should just start with. There's no reason security officers can't just spawn with the baton instead of it starting in a locker, or failing that why the baton can't just spawn in the armoury instead.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Armhulen » #621914

cacogen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:43 am
Mothblocks wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 am
what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it
Nah
Dude what game are we making for people nowadays oml
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by cacogen » #621915

Hopefully not one where job items are taken from lockers and given to cargo for people to have to order every shift
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Pandarsenic » #621920

Mothblocks wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 am
Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:33 am what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it
This is actually ideal, as long as the threat leaves, because then there are no QMs, Miners, and Cargo Techs fucking up the actual use of the Cargo department. You can just break down a window, get your shit, send the shuttle back, and be on your way.
Armhulen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:43 am
Cobby wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:52 pm Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.
this is pretty cool
Don't you need a Warden (or someone else with Armory access) to open up the crate of batons you ordered anyway?
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by ardentarclight » #621921

Pandarsenic wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:00 am
Mothblocks wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 am
Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:33 am what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it
This is actually ideal, as long as the threat leaves, because then there are no QMs, Miners, and Cargo Techs fucking up the actual use of the Cargo department. You can just break down a window, get your shit, send the shuttle back, and be on your way.
Armhulen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:43 am
Cobby wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:52 pm Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.
this is pretty cool
Don't you need a Warden (or someone else with Armory access) to open up the crate of batons you ordered anyway?
stun baton crates are sec-level unlock
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Shadowflame909 » #621922

Armhulen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:09 am
cacogen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:43 am
Mothblocks wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 am
what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it
Nah
Dude what game are we making for people nowadays oml
the endless battle between gamers who want a underdog to super powerful simulator vs the realistic horror movie victim getting btfo'd by the unstoppable villain

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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by NecromancerAnne » #621932

Use a stunprod, as your ancestors once did.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #621934

NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:42 am Use a stunprod, as your ancestors once did.
when I Use a stunprod a certain part of my brain turns off which makes me reasonable, please I don't wanna use crafted weapons(I go absolutely apeshit).
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this sounds like hell
for me, it's wondering why mark Wahlberg is able to get away with what he's done
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by NecromancerAnne » #621935

Jonathan Gupta wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:13 am
NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:42 am Use a stunprod, as your ancestors once did.
when I Use a stunprod a certain part of my brain turns off which makes me reasonable, please I don't wanna use crafted weapons(I go absolutely apeshit).
You're regressing. Embrace it.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #621936

NecromancerAnne wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:21 am You're regressing. Embrace it.
don't embrace primal instinct kids thats how you get PERMA BANNED
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XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Good luck with getting into any other ss13 servers Gupta
This shit is going everywhere
Everyone will know your little scheme
And we will find everyone involved
Fucking POS
Jonathan Gupta wrote:sneezed twice a cute girl must be talking about me :mrgreen:
Agux909 wrote:I get psychological damage every time I read one of Gupta's posts.
Stickymayhem wrote:you know if you just add Jonathan Gupta to your blocked list on the forums you can save /tg/station
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:I keep gupta unblocked because his posts are funnier than spam text
cacogen wrote:
Jonathan Gupta wrote: you see my inner psyche in each of my posts I'll demonstrate a conversation I had with myself recently "ROCK ON!!!!! Loserx9 *laugh uncontrollably* LOSEEEEEEEER *do a rock sign* *do 20 pushups* TURN THAT SHIT UP!!!! *Invisible remote turns it up* *Chuckle till you go to sleep*" and I'm not happy either when I laugh this all happens within 5 seconds by the way 10 seconds for the pushups.
this sounds like hell
for me, it's wondering why mark Wahlberg is able to get away with what he's done
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Pandarsenic » #621938

Remember, if you don't have stun weapons because they all got looted in advance, you can always "arrest" people by critting them

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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by cacogen » #621961

Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:13 am
Armhulen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:09 am
cacogen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:43 am
Mothblocks wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:30 am
what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late
If a department is effectively gone from the station, then you should feel it
Nah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them. There are a million different reasons why an order may not be fulfilled, so it's stupid to get bogged down on any one example that people can think of here. Even if the order is fulfilled, it's a huge pain in the ass to have to wait on cargo each shift for a job item you should just start with. There's no reason security officers can't just spawn with the baton instead of it starting in a locker, or failing that why the baton can't just spawn in the armoury instead.
Dude what game are we making for people nowadays oml
the endless battle between gamers who want a underdog to super powerful simulator vs the realistic horror movie victim getting btfo'd by the unstoppable villain

You get weird middle grounds like this
That wasn't what that post was saying at all. He just quoted that part of the post and left the rest out to create a strawman to respond to. I didn't even quote Mothblocks in my response, he constructed it that way. He's a shitty, underhanded person and for more reasons than just this.

Mothblocks was using a truism to sidestep the debate about whether security should need to order extra stun batons or not. By saying nah I was telling him to fuck off with the usual disingenuous bullshit, not disagreeing with the thing that generally holds true.

Then when I successfully parried Armhulen's bullshit by refocusing on the issue at hand, the thread spun off in this bizarre direction that is all about trying to find ways to circumvent the issue entirely presumably because it's become socially untenable in people's minds to argue with the powers that be about it when they're self-evidently wrong and know they're wrong and simply don't care or has nothing to do with the issue at all.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by NecromancerAnne » #621964

I think arseholes robbing every sec locker of their batons is entirely a player issue. There is like 6-8 batons in sec spread across the various lockers, and the HoS and Warden get their own secbelts, you probably have enough to go around unless someone is pinching more than one and being greedy.

Alternatively, if you REALLY feel strongly about this whole thing, you could play cargo sec and ensure there is someone there to get those batons out. But I'm not saying that as 'this is now an expected requirement' and more 'if you feel so hard done by, you have an avenue for resolving this as a workaround'.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by datorangebottle » #621974

Cobby wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:52 pm Move spare batons into armories so they’re managed by the warden.
problem: There are HoS/Warden mains who open the armory roundstart whenever possible. You might as well put them back into the backpacks if you do this.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by oranges » #621975

cacogen wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:43 am Nah, you should just have access to the things you need to do your job roundstart instead of having to rely on another department for them.
you do, that's why there's one in your job locker you absolute clown, stop being an embarassment.

the only people who have to rely on another dept are late joins who are over the job cap, anything around baton stealing/hoarding is an IC issue to be sorted out by the HoS

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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by oranges » #621977

Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 1:33 am what if cargo is plasma flooded/xploded/cult/murderboned/otherwise nae-nae'd because you came in late

orange man the paranoia factor of the game has ruined my chance of getting the stun baton!! This would be highly dangerous to survive!
Then you will have to improvise and get some other types of weapons, which should be a fairly fun experience.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Farquaar » #621983

I don't really think the change was needed, but I also don't understand the complaints. It's literally inconsequential unless you're handing out batons to every tom dick and harry.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by datorangebottle » #621988

Farquaar wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:51 pm I don't really think the change was needed, but I also don't understand the complaints. It's literally inconsequential unless you're handing out batons to every tom dick and harry.
problem that required the change:
officers were carrying multiple batons so that running out of charge or getting disarmed mid-combat was inconsequential.
problem that the change caused:
officers continued to carry multiple batons, so now latejoining officers don't have batons. also, latejoining sec getting mobbed by revs / cultists for their gear/id and being unable to defend themselves.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Shadowflame909 » #621989

what if the only place the baton could fit on was the baton belt and it got the laser gun nerf
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by oranges » #621991

datorangebottle wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:43 pm
Farquaar wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:51 pm I don't really think the change was needed, but I also don't understand the complaints. It's literally inconsequential unless you're handing out batons to every tom dick and harry.
problem that required the change:
officers were carrying multiple batons so that running out of charge or getting disarmed mid-combat was inconsequential.
problem that the change caused:
officers continued to carry multiple batons, so now latejoining officers don't have batons. also, latejoining sec getting mobbed by revs / cultists for their gear/id and being unable to defend themselves.
that is not why it was changed, it was changed because security officers started with two batons needlessly, and the decision was made to remove the one spawning on the user so that extending the job cap had some tiny meaningful impact in that you had to order some extra gear for those people.

officers carrying two batons, is and remains to be an IC and policy issue.
Shadowflame909 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:49 pm what if the only place the baton could fit on was the baton belt and it got the laser gun nerf
again because the change was not around them hoarding batons.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Mothblocks » #622030

I was responding to Shadowflame actually
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #622063

They should spawn with knives so i can stab people
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by datorangebottle » #622085

Super Aggro Crag wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:13 pm They should spawn with knives so i can stab people
a swiss army knife, so that they don't have to steal entire toolbelts. :lol:
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by Shadowflame909 » #622095

good news about this

That australian throwing boomerang baton will actually be useful.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by sinfulbliss » #622125

oranges wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:10 pm that is not why it was changed, it was changed because security officers started with two batons needlessly, and the decision was made to remove the one spawning on the user so that extending the job cap had some tiny meaningful impact in that you had to order some extra gear for those people.
It is incredibly rare for the sec job cap to get extended by the HoP/cap. And by rare I mean... I've seen it maybe once in the past 50 rounds at most. What isn't rare, though, is latejoin officers not having batons for the whole shift (particularly the newer officers will especially have no hope of figuring out a replacement).

I'll leave it at that though, I have no other points except that officers should never be joining a round without a fighting chance in a 1v1, and without a shiftstart baton they can get got quite easily.
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Re: Security no longer spawning with batons

Post by NecromancerAnne » #622151

They do have a disabler. It isn't nothing.
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