Bring back the old rule 3

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MrStonedOne
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Bring back the old rule 3

Post by MrStonedOne » #627063

This used to be rule 3 on all servers back when I first took over as webhost (but not game host)
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rules&oldid=193 wrote:3. This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Being an asshole, who ruins other player's roleplay experience, just to win, is considered a 'play-to-win' style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. Be considerate of other players' experience.
This didn't make it thru a rewrite.

Anti-play2win enforcement used to hold back the tide that is this fucking game when unleashed.

Bring it back.

The way this used to be enforced on antags to counter this being enforced on security, was that admins had free roam to do some tasteful button presses to make the antag's round more challenging. If you're gonna play to win as tator, so will the gods. Then hijack came out and that become frowned upon because it was already generally frowned upon to make it harder for antags to honestly achieve their objectives.

(I could have just asked the headmins about doing this, but i'm too high to be disrupting their official discord channel with highdeas, so you get to hear an old man yelling at a cloud a policy thread instead)

edit:

(For the record, pandarsenic in this thread has a better grasp on what this rule originally meant then even I did. They were one of the admin trainers at the time I was a candidate.)

edit2:

Let me break this rule down for you.

This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. - preamble establishing intent and reasoning

Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, - piece 1

just to win, - piece 2

is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. - tie everything together

Be considerate of other players’ experience. - finish off strong with a call to action.


It's important to note that piece 2 is a condition on piece 1.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Shadowflame909 » #627064

This might actually achieve codebases goals of making lrp MRP and mrp HRP.''

murderboners, validhunters, and cuban pete bombers btfo'd?
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by oranges » #627065

It's not a goal, it's just how it's always been.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by cSeal » #627067

based do it
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by thomanthewise5404 » #627068

i dont really wanna roleplay
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by sinfulbliss » #627070

Goes against the spirit of LRP. If the goal is to enforce global MRP then this would be a great way to do it, but I doubt 90%+ of the LRP playerbase would enjoy that move.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Stickymayhem » #627071

If this rule was actually properly enforced it would solve so many problems it's unreal

De-emphasising the roleplaying aspect of the game and it's consequences have been a disaster for /tg/station. As the experience gets more competitive players feel entitled (naturally I think) to a greater level of independence, freedom from interference and fun. SS13 is it's best as a story generator, not a pseudo competitive TTT game with atmos slapped on. Dying should be part of the story and players have forgotten that.

Let's talk about powergaming, and positive and negative freedom. Take the maximum possible freedom, a server with total anarchy (based) would actually restrict behaviour far more than now. If you don't pick up a weapon you only free to die, so you HAVE to powergame. If you stop and talk to someone you just open yourself up to getting lasered to death before you can react, so now you can't even roleplay. Interaction becomes shallow and the game is reduced to it's imperfect mechanics with no layer of roleplaying on top to smooth it over.

Powergaming does this to a lesser extent. If everyone has the freedom to gear up, validhunt (something that we used to discourage and ban for) and be a one man army against antagonists, then the only option antags have is to be as efficiently deadly and powerful as possible, reducing the opportunities for fun gameplays. How many wizards take boring teleport and fireball spells so they get to actually enjoy being wizard for more than five minutes when they could be doing a fun and wacky gimmick with the other 40 options available. How many nuke ops rush the Captain, drag their body into space and get the disk while barely interacting with the crew? How many traitors could be doing grand gimmicks instead of just buying an esword and adrenals and murderboning?

Admin events have become rare because admins get pushed back against by entitled players who demand a "fair and balanced experience" in a game specifically designed to provide an unequal distribution of fun offering higher highs and lower lows than most experiences. The number of times I've seen whinebabies play chicken with consequences like fucking with centcom or an admin event and then absolutely shit themselves in rage when they actually get punished after being told X action leads to Y consequence is a problem that demonstrates this entitlement.

It will be a change the playerbase will resist, but it will make the game more fun to push back on these behaviours that didn't used to be acceptable. Return to tradition, fuck the players.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Mothblocks » #627072

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:34 am Goes against the spirit of LRP. If the goal is to enforce global MRP then this would be a great way to do it, but I doubt 90%+ of the LRP playerbase would enjoy that move.
Can you elaborate?
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Stickymayhem » #627073

thomanthewise5404 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:33 am i dont really wanna roleplay
You're on the wrong server bucko
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by froggers » #627075

I hope this will get in the way of security opting to round-end the antags they catch. Things are way more fun when there's a possibility of them escaping from the permabrig.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Shadowflame909 » #627076

Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am -SNIP-
Hard Agree with everything. It's why stuff like Clown Ops would get completely smacked out of the server on LRP.

It is particularly tough to try to avoid powergame in the current state of the game, when the only way your having fun with it is by staying vertical for as long as possible and stealthily preparing for george melons to come and turn you horizontal. Like getting a toolbox roundstart, or a medikit. Or a warm donk-pocket.

If there was less push back against admins being able to spice up the round when it enters the same routine we've seen for the millionth time, im sure death wouldn't be as bad.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by WineAllWine » #627081

Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am Return to tradition, fuck the players.

Amen. I think I'm more happy to cause 'imbalance' than most in order to make fun stories. More admins (and more players!) should do it
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Stickymayhem » #627089

WineAllWine wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 11:15 am
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am Return to tradition, fuck the players.

Amen. I think I'm more happy to cause 'imbalance' than most in order to make fun stories. More admins (and more players!) should do it
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #627091

This seems like a no-brainer. Let's do it.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #627093

If people don't like it there's a ton of downstreams they can murderfuck on
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by wesoda25 » #627094

God yes, before we had to use the rare rule 0/1 but this would be way better.

Also we should just remove the “LRP” tags from our other servers and call manuel our “higher” roleplay server.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Timberpoes » #627096

There are no LRP tags on the other servers.

Manuel and Campbell are tagged as Roleplay.

Our other servers are not tagged at all.

The only mention of LRP is, funnily enough, in the Roleplay Rules.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by wesoda25 » #627098

I thought it was more places than that but I’m not willing to look so I will take your word for it 👍
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Stickymayhem » #627099

Also the fact that we fucking let these terrytards start referring to the server as LRP is a travesty

"Forcing me to roleplay" is now a regular complaint when people send dick rockets to centcom and get mad when they get punished for it
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #627100

Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:47 pm Also the fact that we fucking let these terrytards start referring to the server as LRP is a travesty

"Forcing me to roleplay" is now a regular complaint when people send dick rockets to centcom and get mad when they get punished for it
That's when you just laugh and say "LRP isn't NRP" imo
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Sylphet » #627102

This will piss people off and I find that funny, do it.

On a serious note, while this won't solve anything on its own and it depends on admin will to enforce it, formalising it into the rules is a really good step to take, and I think this will go a long way to improve community health. Love this idea and it has me honestly excited to see what happens ♥
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Pandarsenic » #627113

Extremely based, implement it immediately
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Bawhoppennn » #627117

It should come back. Perhaps with a few extra guidelines surrounding it to clear up interpretation of its enforcement. If so, this perhaps could also be a step in healing our current server division, as our presently separated rules just leave people gravitating to one of two extreme poles.
Last edited by Bawhoppennn on Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by ardentarclight » #627119

My only issue with this is enforcements, but if this can be enforced well Jesus fuck would it be good, playing this shitty 2d Atmos sim to """win""" at it's combat is genuinely retarded (why not play a game with actual good combat lol)
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Timberpoes » #627130

MrStonedOne wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:08 amThis didn't make it thru a rewrite.
I actually beg to differ. I think it DID make it through a rewrite. Infact, the suggested rewording can be found under Rule 1 Precedents in our present-day rules.
Old rule wrote:This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, just to win, is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing. You can and will be banned for this playstyle. Be considerate of other players' experience.
Roleplaying was baked into the rules and emphasised as the purpose of the game. Runing other peoples' roleplay just to win was a dick move and was bannabale.
Suggested rewording wrote:Randomly murdering people is generally considered to be ruining someone’s fun and poor form in roleplay. If you don’t have a solid IC reason for murder, you may be removed. Trying to justify it with ‘My character is so random/insane’ is not tolerated.
The suggested rewording is an entirely new, totally different rule.

It is extremely detatched from the spirit of the old rule.

This suggested rewording effectively eliminated that the game was about having fun roleplaying, or that this is a roleplaying game. It just says that random murder ruins other people's fun and is failRP.
What we ended up with: Rule 1, Precedent 1 wrote:Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 hour ban.
We have finally rejected roleplay in its entirety, in favour of more milquetoast wording about not killing people for poor or little reasoning.

"Don't kill people for shitty reason" is completely detatched from "This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying."

I support bringing back the essence of old Rule 3:
Playing just to win is a bad faith approach. This is a roleplaying game. The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Be considerate of other players' experiences.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Timberpoes » #627132

As an aside, look at the tl;dr at the top of the page:
There’s a lot here, but the gist of the rules is roleplay takes priority. Don’t murder just for fun if you’re not antag. Don’t metagame. Don’t play to win. Don’t be a jerk OOCly. If you don’t understand what those words mean or you need more detail, read on!
I can see why people argue old TG was MRP. That's like 50% of the way to the RP rules in 6 sentences.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by sinfulbliss » #627134

Mothblocks wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:34 am Goes against the spirit of LRP. If the goal is to enforce global MRP then this would be a great way to do it, but I doubt 90%+ of the LRP playerbase would enjoy that move.
Can you elaborate?
There is an extremely sizeable chunk of the community who play LRP because they are allowed to get into random fights in the halls, to instigate conflict, and to participate in the chaos (whether that's to oppose the chaos or ride with it). If this rule were implemented, they would no longer be able to play like that, and would instead have to roleplay as whatever role they are. But that is simply not the kind of fun they play LRP for.

Antags are allowed to do whatever they want, and accordingly, crew is allowed to powergame whatever they want. You are allowed to validhunt because the antags are allowed to kill you FNR. On Manuel you can't validhunt because antags aren't allowed to kill you FNR (murderbone policy). It is balanced this way. What this rule will do is, as MSO already suggested, force admins to intervene (?) to nerf antags if they get too strong, since crew isn't allowed to "play2win" and kill them via valid policy.

Not to mention this rule is ridiculously vague. I could see justifying a "stay-in-your-lane" bwoink via this rule, to a bwoink for shoving someone in the halls. In fact it makes nearly any instigation of conflict bwoinkable if the right admin is on. Bwoink someone for tiding into engi and stealing insuls, because it sports a "play-2-win" mentality. Bwoink an assistant for shove-cuffing a nukie because he was only playing to win and validhunt, and wasn't considerate of that nukie's round. Etc. Very cringe sort of bwoinks to LRP players which would absolutely drive them off the servers.

Lastly it makes Sybil and Terry functionally identical to Manuel. You might as well name the thread "move LRP servers to MRP."
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Adam Klein » #627135

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:34 am Goes against the spirit of LRP. If the goal is to enforce global MRP then this would be a great way to do it, but I doubt 90%+ of the LRP playerbase would enjoy that move.
Can you elaborate?
There is an extremely sizeable chunk of the community who play LRP because they are allowed to get into random fights in the halls, to instigate conflict, and to participate in the chaos (whether that's to oppose the chaos or ride with it). If this rule were implemented, they would no longer be able to play like that, and would instead have to roleplay as whatever role they are. But that is simply not the kind of fun they play LRP for.

Antags are allowed to do whatever they want, and accordingly, crew is allowed to powergame whatever they want. You are allowed to validhunt because the antags are allowed to kill you FNR. On Manuel you can't validhunt because antags aren't allowed to kill you FNR (murderbone policy). It is balanced this way. What this rule will do is, as MSO already suggested, force admins to intervene (?) to nerf antags if they get too strong, since crew isn't allowed to "play2win" and kill them via valid policy.

Not to mention this rule is ridiculously vague. I could see justifying a "stay-in-your-lane" bwoink via this rule, to a bwoink for shoving someone in the halls. In fact it makes nearly any instigation of conflict bwoinkable if the right admin is on. Bwoink someone for tiding into engi and stealing insuls, because it sports a "play-2-win" mentality. Bwoink an assistant for shove-cuffing a nukie because he was only playing to win and validhunt, and wasn't considerate of that nukie's round. Etc. Very cringe sort of bwoinks to LRP players which would absolutely drive them off the servers.

Lastly it makes Sybil and Terry functionally identical to Manuel. You might as well name the thread "move LRP servers to MRP."
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30784&sid=f9f41fb4 ... c5fe21656f

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30789&sid=f9f41fb4 ... c5fe21656f
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by sinfulbliss » #627139

Right, which makes this the third policy thread attempting to turn LRP into MRP (although this time from the host).
I guess it just seems weird to make the change if 95%+ of the playerbase on those LRP servers, would be vehemently against it.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Qbmax32 » #627140

Based as fuck, do it
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by wesoda25 » #627145

I'm a little hung up on how day-to-day enforcement of this rule would look. I can understand how it would be used for permas, it would speed up and make a lot clearer what we currently use 0 and 1 for. Those are reserved though for typically the most egregious examples though, how exactly would admins go about this considering how ingrained this playstyle has become? It seems similar to the roll out of rule 11 to me, which massively benefited once precedent was established (however was very messy and bad before then).

Your explanation for how antags were dealt with was helpful, could you provide some for more typical situations with non-antags?
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Boot » #627147

How does this idea of banning "play-to-win" style jive with the existence of the highscore board? For things like the tourists served and Intento don't really impact other players but what about lavaland bosses, If I wanna climb the highscores on lavaland bosses will I get bwoinked for using the boss loot around after round? What about hardcore random characters? I've been climbing the hardcore leaderboards and while alot of the fun is trying to do your job while also bribing chem/botany for your drug of choice or being unable to harm others during a war-ops round in my head I am thinking "I gotta survive this so I can get my internet points!". Would that be considered a play-to-win mentality?

Don't get me wrong here, I get what the issue is. We all know the lads who roll cargo just to buy the stun baton crate, break open sec locker, and make hellfire guns. We all know the guys who will, medical or not, rush the med supplies to print off a saw/drill even if they are the viro or chemist. Now all that being said, we have a headmin ruling that says that no, security can't just barricade the brig shift start. Maybe a more targeted solution could work before jumping to the "no playing-to-win nerd" rule change nuke drop.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Kel » #627150

just hope modern admins dont turn this into a WMD
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by NoxVS » #627151

Boot wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:16 pm How does this idea of banning "play-to-win" style jive with the existence of the highscore board? For things like the tourists served and Intento don't really impact other players but what about lavaland bosses, If I wanna climb the highscores on lavaland bosses will I get bwoinked for using the boss loot around after round? What about hardcore random characters? I've been climbing the hardcore leaderboards and while alot of the fun is trying to do your job while also bribing chem/botany for your drug of choice or being unable to harm others during a war-ops round in my head I am thinking "I gotta survive this so I can get my internet points!". Would that be considered a play-to-win mentality?

Don't get me wrong here, I get what the issue is. We all know the lads who roll cargo just to buy the stun baton crate, break open sec locker, and make hellfire guns. We all know the guys who will, medical or not, rush the med supplies to print off a saw/drill even if they are the viro or chemist. Now all that being said, we have a headmin ruling that says that no, security can't just barricade the brig shift start. Maybe a more targeted solution could work before jumping to the "no playing-to-win nerd" rule change nuke drop.
As long as you "playing to win" doesn't occur at another player's expense
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by bobbahbrown » #627152

Kel wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:37 pm just hope modern admins dont turn this into a WMD
i have some concerns that it will become a biased ban-slinging fest, but trying it out and seeing if it really is good/bad may have its merits.

does anyone know why ausops (+ others?) excluded the spirit of this rule from the rewrite on august 12, 2015? maybe if someone is still in touch with ausops they could get their opinion. it's always nice to know if there was a reason why things are the way they are.

best wishes,
bobbah 'bee' brown
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Adam Klein » #627159

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 6:12 pm
Right, which makes this the third policy thread attempting to turn LRP into MRP (although this time from the host).
I guess it just seems weird to make the change if 95%+ of the playerbase on those LRP servers, would be vehemently against it.
I respect you and what you’ve done sinfulbliss, but if 95% of the core playerbase, let’s be real Manuel is only a tiny corner of this hell, why aren’t they here arguing against this or providing actual reasons why this is bad. From my point of view the only people who would be hurt by this rule are your power players and your Uber tiders.
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:32 pm all you godamn do is whine and complain come up with ideas, stop bitching for christs sake.
Flatulent wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 am You and anyone who supports the rule 3 as described by mso is simply put not an lrp player
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Adam Klein » #627160

The general community, who have been ignored in favor of these ubertiders, would only benefit from this rule.
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:32 pm all you godamn do is whine and complain come up with ideas, stop bitching for christs sake.
Flatulent wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 am You and anyone who supports the rule 3 as described by mso is simply put not an lrp player
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Shadowflame909 » #627163

honestly Im of two minds.

The first that says spending multiple hour long rounds doing nothing but the "job content" gets old really quick because 99% of the ingame content only has one set/useful pathway. So I do like it when antags put the station in irreparable damage to end the rounds earlier to spice things up.

But my other mind is, it sure is lame when antags do everything they can to keep the murderbone ongoing. Recalling shuttles, going into departments looking for people to turn horizontal, etc. So it'd be nice to see admins incentivized to keep the game pumping with players via button pressing.

It could be cool. Maybe I just play this game too much and my only issue is a me problem.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Redrover1760 » #627171

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
Mothblocks wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:34 am Goes against the spirit of LRP. If the goal is to enforce global MRP then this would be a great way to do it, but I doubt 90%+ of the LRP playerbase would enjoy that move.
Can you elaborate?
There is an extremely sizeable chunk of the community who play LRP because they are allowed to get into random fights in the halls, to instigate conflict, and to participate in the chaos (whether that's to oppose the chaos or ride with it). If this rule were implemented, they would no longer be able to play like that, and would instead have to roleplay as whatever role they are. But that is simply not the kind of fun they play LRP for.

Antags are allowed to do whatever they want, and accordingly, crew is allowed to powergame whatever they want. You are allowed to validhunt because the antags are allowed to kill you FNR. On Manuel you can't validhunt because antags aren't allowed to kill you FNR (murderbone policy). It is balanced this way. What this rule will do is, as MSO already suggested, force admins to intervene (?) to nerf antags if they get too strong, since crew isn't allowed to "play2win" and kill them via valid policy.

Not to mention this rule is ridiculously vague. I could see justifying a "stay-in-your-lane" bwoink via this rule, to a bwoink for shoving someone in the halls. In fact it makes nearly any instigation of conflict bwoinkable if the right admin is on. Bwoink someone for tiding into engi and stealing insuls, because it sports a "play-2-win" mentality. Bwoink an assistant for shove-cuffing a nukie because he was only playing to win and validhunt, and wasn't considerate of that nukie's round. Etc. Very cringe sort of bwoinks to LRP players which would absolutely drive them off the servers.

Lastly it makes Sybil and Terry functionally identical to Manuel. You might as well name the thread "move LRP servers to MRP."
I feel like a better rule is more allowance for MRP antags to perform gimmicks of their own, with assistance from admins in working out the specific gimmick objectives to create a more interesting round experience and unique shit.

Because, come on. If Skyrat can call itself HRP and have the antags have a dedicated OOC channel to create objectives and get them approved by admins, essentially being more freeform to antags than a MRP server, than why can't TG MRP to do it too.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Striders13 » #627174

I do find the current tdm nature of lrp enjoyable, but this seems like it might be fun if enforced properly, so yeah sure.
I would love to see roleplay in chaos again. As most roleplayers moved to Manuel, Terry was left with just the people who play to win. I'm not sure if this newly formed community can be changed, but I hope it's possible.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by oranges » #627180

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:34 am Goes against the spirit of LRP.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Valorium » #627183

I concur. Making people put the most basic effort into playing a character is an excellent way to keep out the most contemptuous individuals. I liken it to giving someone an 100 point gulag sentence. It’s trivial to do, but a lot of people who don’t participate in good faith can’t be bothered. But, as my signature suggests…
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by TheFinalPotato » #627191

Admins should be free. I agree with this
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Adam Klein » #627192

Being a sethtider, I never really got to experience the true adminbus. Bring it on badmins, it’s your duty
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:32 pm all you godamn do is whine and complain come up with ideas, stop bitching for christs sake.
Flatulent wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 am You and anyone who supports the rule 3 as described by mso is simply put not an lrp player
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by MrStonedOne » #627197

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm [...]
There is an extremely sizeable chunk of the community who play LRP because they are allowed to get into random fights in the halls, to instigate conflict, and to participate in the chaos (whether that's to oppose the chaos or ride with it). If this rule were implemented, they would no longer be able to play like that, and would instead have to roleplay as whatever role they are. But that is simply not the kind of fun they play LRP for.
Nope.

You can fuck around and find out, you just wouldn't be able to minmax your gear before doing so.
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
Antags are allowed to do whatever they want, and accordingly, crew is allowed to powergame whatever they want. You are allowed to validhunt because the antags are allowed to kill you FNR.
The headmin imposed rp lore (back when headmin rulings were just declared in ooc, not written in stone) balancing back then was such that your were expected to pretend, that before every round, your character had worked tens to hundreds to thousands of boring, mind numbing shifts before this one you are playing now, and had mainly only ever *heard* of these bad things happening at other stations. Unauthorized lore by players in ooc/deadchat was that what was actually going on was NT removed negative memories to cheat morale issues, when cloning people or what not. I remember somebody arguing in dead chat that this was why chaotic shifts tended to result in death at centcom, (so they could clone you while removing the bad memories after killing you)
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
On Manuel you can't validhunt because antags aren't allowed to kill you FNR (murderbone policy). It is balanced this way. What this rule will do is, as MSO already suggested, force admins to intervene (?) to nerf antags if they get too strong, since crew isn't allowed to "play2win" and kill them via valid policy.
Nope, its not play to win to respond to antags that exist in the shift and are known. it is play to win to prep before hand, and it is also play to win to build an optimized load out you always pull out when x antag is announced, especially when it involves optimizing for meta knowledge like armor values, hp, force, and such. If you say pull out such a loadout when x antag is known for being very tough and dangerous, well now you have RP justification.

Reactive vs proactive.

also security's (and to a lesser degree any valid hunting crew) job (at the ooc level) is to give the antag a challenge to winning, that if they can met, will make said win more satisfying. if you have a strat that basically guarantees they lose, always, every time, its play2win and powergaming. You aren't supposed to make them lose, just make them earn their green text. This is what it means to act in good faith towards the game and enjoyment of it. Like, if you are the hos, you are their final boss. The final boss is not suppose to be unbeatable, just really hard, (and in our case with no saves or chance to try again when you fail)
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
Not to mention this rule is ridiculously vague.
intentional
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
I could see justifying a "stay-in-your-lane" bwoink via this rule,
reactive or proactive lane leaving? If the chemist is getting mutagen and going to botany or ass-garden to make some overpowered bullshit, and blue alert only just barely triggered, and there is no antagonistic shit going on, why would that be allowed? technically its already against the rules.

Are they an assistant who rushed to make a stun prod with nothing going on in the shift to justify having personal defence weapons? straight to jail.

Did they do it after nukes went war? or having heard on radio about a crazed maniac running around with a freaking lightsaber? perfectly fine. (as an aside, the entire point of war ops is its a green pass to powergame)
[/quote]
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
to a bwoink for shoving someone in the halls.
you might have misread the rule, its a good thing too, because some admins might do so as well, so lets clear this up:
Being an asshole, who ruins other player's roleplay experience, just to win,...
your example violates the underlined part, but not the bolded part, which is a condition on the underlined part, so would not be against this rule. shoving somebody can't be seen as 'just to win' on its own.
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm In fact it makes nearly any instigation of conflict bwoinkable if the right admin is on.
see above
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
Bwoink someone for tiding into engi and stealing insuls, because it sports a "play-2-win" mentality.
Hacking into doors is an ic issue on its own (depending somewhat on the door and what you do afterwards). Somebody who wants to hack into doors, has an ic justification for wanting insuls.
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
Bwoink an assistant for shove-cuffing a nukie because he was only playing to win and validhunt, and wasn't considerate of that nukie's round. Etc. Very cringe sort of bwoinks to LRP players which would absolutely drive them off the servers.
Shove cuffing a nukie isn't play-2-win, prepping at round start to make sure you have the tools needed to shove cuff a nukie before you even had any idea there were nukies to shove cuff, is play2win.

Pre-prepping at round start and waiting for something to use your toys on, is shallow game play, reacting to events and coms traffic and chatter, is more deep, interactive, fun, and makes time-of-execution a meaningful factor that can influence how well an antag does, given that it starts a race between everybody reacting to the antag existing, and prepping for it, and the antag trying to do their thing.

It makes comms the proper target it should always be, as currently why would any antag try to avoid letting the crew find out whats going on, if half the station is gonna be prepped for you and every other antag at round start anyways. The only person who is supposed to be minmax equipped to handle nukeops at round start, is the clown, via the slips they have access to. This is a feature, not a bug.
sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 pm
Lastly it makes Sybil and Terry functionally identical to Manuel. You might as well name the thread "move LRP servers to MRP."
Manuel still requires antags not murder bone, the other servers won't, manuel still expects crew members to do their job, the other servers won't, manuel punishes senseless grey tiding to a much higher degree then the other servers ever will.

More likely manuel will start to shift more in the hrp/mrp range. pretty soon you won't be able to run in the halls without an ic justification for running. (i kid, we won't do that without speeding up both walking speed and running speed a fair amount, err, i mean we wouldn't do that at all ever >=})

As an aside, you know what I did once, when i found two cultists very soon after round start as a borg?

".b ai, what are we supposed to do if we see a human harming themselves?"

"just ignore it, did somebody commit suicide?"

".b na, they were cutting their fingers and drawing things on the floor. maybe you should call medical and see if they can get them some mental help"

"I don't see any runes, anyways security handles mental health"

";security there are some crew men who might need mental health, they are cutting into their finger and drawing on the floor with their blood. they just ran away from x by x"

My round was not ruined by not immediately dunking on the antags (as engi borg this would be by trying to flash them and take them to sec) that i found too early in their process for them to have a chance to respond. and by drawing the convo out like that (in earshot of them) it gave them time to run but still warned the station in the end what was going on. In fact, this ended up being the first round I module swapped to janitor borg, then spent a few rounds after that as janitor borg having fun running around the station and cleaning up messes.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Adam Klein » #627200

I say, let’s give it a try community wise for a month or two, see what issues come from it or if it really does make TG a paradise.
Jonathan Gupta wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:32 pm all you godamn do is whine and complain come up with ideas, stop bitching for christs sake.
Flatulent wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:02 am You and anyone who supports the rule 3 as described by mso is simply put not an lrp player
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Flatulent » #627212

Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am Dying should be part of the story and players have forgotten that.
Yes, I agree, manuelites and other people who constantly complain about robust traitors should remember this part about the game.
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am Let's talk about powergaming, and positive and negative freedom. Take the maximum possible freedom, a server with total anarchy (based) would actually restrict behaviour far more than now. If you don't pick up a weapon you only free to die, so you HAVE to powergame. If you stop and talk to someone you just open yourself up to getting lasered to death before you can react, so now you can't even roleplay. Interaction becomes shallow and the game is reduced to it's imperfect mechanics with no layer of roleplaying on top to smooth it over.
this was literally your headmin campaign
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am Powergaming does this to a lesser extent. If everyone has the freedom to gear up, validhunt (something that we used to discourage and ban for) and be a one man army against antagonists, then the only option antags have is to be as efficiently deadly and powerful as possible, reducing the opportunities for fun gameplays.
no, sticky, the option antags have is to get better at the game and not suck. if you nerfed traitors into the ground by taking away their competitive advantage of retardedly busted gear, don’t complain about how hard it is to not powergame as antag. now.
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am How many wizards take boring teleport and fireball spells so they get to actually enjoy being wizard for more than five minutes when they could be doing a fun and wacky gimmick with the other 40 options available. How many nuke ops rush the Captain, drag their body into space and get the disk while barely interacting with the crew? How many traitors could be doing grand gimmicks instead of just buying an esword and adrenals and murderboning?
have you ever considered that players do this because they consider this to be fun? no, wait, there’s no way players like something that I don’t. players don’t understand what they want, it is the job of us, enlightened admins (that log every 2 years on servers to actually play the game instead of farting with admin midis), to show them the true path to enjoyable gameplay.
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am Admin events have become rare because admins get pushed back against by entitled players who demand a "fair and balanced experience" in a game specifically designed to provide an unequal distribution of fun offering higher highs and lower lows than most experiences. The number of times I've seen whinebabies play chicken with consequences like fucking with centcom or an admin event and then absolutely shit themselves in rage when they actually get punished after being told X action leads to Y consequence is a problem that demonstrates this entitlement.
there is a difference between cc just griefing the station or sending them an interesting challenge to defeat (deathsquad)
if you can’t make good admin events don’t pin it on all the other jannies
Stickymayhem wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:57 am fuck the players.
this is the only part in the message where sticky is being sincere.
Mothblocks, winter 2020, “successfully” preventing bagil death with relevant data wrote:You seem to be under the fallacy that reinforcing that Bagil is a TDM shithole where you must carry bolas and spears on you at all times, while looking for the next valid to hunt down is a positive change to the server. I don't. The data suggests other people don't.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Capsandi » #627216

I will not protest about this change or read half the thread, but i will keep tiding as usual and throw a temper tantrum in players club if this limits me whatsoever. In this scenario I will take the only rational course of action and spam threads on /v/ to say TG station is RUIN as many have done before me.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by Flatulent » #627227

This rule 3 is literally just diet mrp, but mrp nonetheless. Same level as “stay in your lane” rule from manuel. Don’t ruin other people’s rp, the general idea of this isn’t fit with lrp.

If you want your mrp server back, just pull the plug on lrp servers and don’t ask players of their opinions. It’s THAT easy. You don’t have to create a policy thread to help you make a decision, it’s your fucking server, do whatever you want with it.

@mso if you really want to see how this mrp change would be accepted, you should shut down terry one day and make it redirect people to campbell.

run this test for like a week or two and compare the population results. perhaps you could check how many of them are european manuel players (do those exist?) or just make a fucking player poll already. The opinions of maintainers, admins are already known and the only reason to NOT do this is because you’re afraid that the results you will get won’t be to your liking. If you’re afraid of asking your own playerbase, why are you even bothering with policy, code and other shit?
Last edited by dragomagol on Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed response to deleted
Mothblocks, winter 2020, “successfully” preventing bagil death with relevant data wrote:You seem to be under the fallacy that reinforcing that Bagil is a TDM shithole where you must carry bolas and spears on you at all times, while looking for the next valid to hunt down is a positive change to the server. I don't. The data suggests other people don't.
imsxz wrote:I give up there’s too many furries
cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post
cybersaber101 wrote:Welp, you guys let a terrymin become a headmin, thousand years of darkness.
Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.
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Re: Bring back the old rule 3

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #627230

Don't do it mso theres way more admins now than ever and I can see this going so wrong

EDIT: This is leaving too much to interpretation as well, it could encompass most of the MRP rules as timber has stated and won't leave much of a difference between Manuel and the other servers except for less death not worth it and we have two communities who like what they like wrong to poke the hornet nest
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