(Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

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Itseasytosee2me
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(Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #653073

Its no secret that the current state of progtot is undesirable for many players and maintainers alike, but I've heard from multiple sources that its unviable to rework due to the advancement that prog traitor has brought in certain aspects.

What are these aspects of progtot that should be preserved in the event of a rework, or is it simply that the refractor and code quality are too good to revert to a previous state?
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Rohen_Tahir » #653102

Sorry but prog traitor being exactly as it is makes wzhzhzh() run slightly faster than it used to for reasons so horrifying I dare not describe them so it's staying.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by oranges » #653117

"multiple sources"
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Pandarsenic » #653119

So nothing needs to be preserved in a hypothetical rework?
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #653124

oranges wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:21 am "multiple sources"
you and moth block
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by san7890 » #653127

honestly the only one i've heard consistently is "it prevents the same usual suspects from powergaming the nastiest strats every single god-damn fucking shift" and it's very hard (in my personal opinion) to go back to old-traitors with that in mind
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Shadowflame909 » #653129

san7890 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:40 am honestly the only one i've heard consistently is "it prevents the same usual suspects from powergaming the nastiest strats every single god-damn fucking shift" and it's very hard (in my personal opinion) to go back to old-traitors with that in mind
I'd rather we go back to antag rep and the same suspects just didn't roll antag rather then deal with this linear gameplay

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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by datorangebottle » #653133

Not a maintainer, but:
From what I understand, the main motivation behind progtot was limiting how early people get their stupidly powerful gamer weapons and bombs. Before it, people would speedrun bombing important areas while other people ran around in maint DEswording heads off of people who were just trying to survive explosions and weren't prepared to fight for their lives.
It's also just way cooler being able to pick and choose objectives instead of the game randomly foisting them upon you. "haha hijack the shuttle loser, what you aren't robust? git gud."
Finally, it'd be nice to preserve some of the new mechanics it brought in in some way- as an example, the final objectives are really cool.

Honestly i'd like to see some kind of merge between the two. Old traitor, but you get to choose a few minor objectives and a final objective you can accomplish after the others are done. also with a hard time lock on ONLY the extremely powerful and conspicuous gamer gear(desword and bomb as an example). None of this, "Haha the captain killed a traitor, time to do the less harmful objectives to get more TC to supply the entire security team with eswords." nonsense. No, "I have to grind for 30 minutes to get my hypnoflash to make lucy cicero into a lobster" stupidity. You can have your stupidly powerful darth maul sword and effort-free bomb thirty minutes into the round. Everyone is happy except for people who speedrun delete medbay so that the shuttle is called, or people who enjoy maximizing their body count with minimum interaction.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by oranges » #653138

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:33 am
oranges wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:21 am "multiple sources"
you and moth block
you seem to have confused the idea of a rework with the idea of reverting it back to exactly how it was before.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #653144

oranges wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:51 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:33 am
oranges wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:21 am "multiple sources"
you and moth block
you seem to have confused the idea of a rework with the idea of reverting it back to exactly how it was before.
This statement implies that you would be fine with any rework other than an exact reverstion to what it was before. Is that the case?
Surely you must like something about current traitor, when I say rework I am referring to a complete overhaul.
What must be preserved?
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by toemas » #653151

san7890 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:40 am honestly the only one i've heard consistently is "it prevents the same usual suspects from powergaming the nastiest strats every single god-damn fucking shift" and it's very hard (in my personal opinion) to go back to old-traitors with that in mind
What do you think its preventing exactly? gamers just have to spend fifteen minutes doing fetch quests before they can "powergame the nasty strats" as you say
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by oranges » #653167

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:48 pm
oranges wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:51 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:33 am
oranges wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:21 am "multiple sources"
you and moth block
you seem to have confused the idea of a rework with the idea of reverting it back to exactly how it was before.
This statement implies that you would be fine with any rework other than an exact reverstion to what it was before. Is that the case?
Surely you must like something about current traitor, when I say rework I am referring to a complete overhaul.
What must be preserved?
A complete overhaul is not even in the picture and I'm pretty sure this already came up in the forum thread about progression traitor, we're open to people adding new objectives and removing or improving existing boring ones but we aren't throwing the whole thing out due to percieved weaknesses that can be fixed within the framework, because it controls how soon antagonists get better gear and more aggressive objectives well.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #653169

oranges wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:39 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:48 pm Snip?
A complete overhaul is not even in the picture and I'm pretty sure this already came up in the forum thread about progression traitor, we're open to people adding new objectives and removing or improving existing boring ones but we aren't throwing the whole thing out due to percieved weaknesses that can be fixed within the framework, because it controls how soon antagonists get better gear and more aggressive objectives well.
Now we are getting somewhere.
The positive elements of progression traitor that you believe must be preserved are it's ability to control better gear, and have aggressive objects.
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by oranges » #653173

you're not getting anywhere you just think you are
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #653174

Oranges, ever piece of information or opinion I can pry out of your skull is a personal victory for me.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by sinfulbliss » #653199

datorangebottle wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:01 am It's also just way cooler being able to pick and choose objectives instead of the game randomly foisting them upon you.
I disagree with this completely. Previously the objectives were so sparse that they only existed as something for traitors to structure their rounds around, not spend them on. More often than not objectives were abandoned if the traitor managed to do something more interesting with their sandbox than like, steal the blackbox or something. So you'd have traitors doing all sorts of unique stuff they thought up on their own.

You never see this anymore with progression traitor because traitors now spend their rounds doing objectives one after the other to reach the final one, as they're incentivized to, and cookie-cutter objectives can never be as creative as a sandbox, no matter what they're replaced with.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by datorangebottle » #653215

sinfulbliss wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:25 pm I disagree with this completely. Previously the objectives were so sparse that they only existed as something for traitors to structure their rounds around, not spend them on. More often than not objectives were abandoned if the traitor managed to do something more interesting with their sandbox than like, steal the blackbox or something. So you'd have traitors doing all sorts of unique stuff they thought up on their own.

You never see this anymore with progression traitor because traitors now spend their rounds doing objectives one after the other to reach the final one, as they're incentivized to, and cookie-cutter objectives can never be as creative as a sandbox, no matter what they're replaced with.
That's because the way prog traitor implemented it was flawed. Now you're gimping yourself if you don't spend the shift doing fetch quests and kicking puppies, because the fetch quests and puppy punting give you extra TC and rep, which let you buy more gear / better gear faster. Why spend time coming up with and executing a funny gimmick if I'm basically cutting my feet off in the process?

Being able to choose from the objectives in an environment where the only benefit of completing the objectives is greentext, adds to the sandbox instead of subtracting from it. Certain objectives have certain required tools, and it's pretty lame that I can't interact with some objects if the game doesn't randomly decide to give me the objective. The list of objectives itself can serve as a springboard for a gimmick, "what if I pick the nuke core objective and then deliberately don't seal the core, allowing me to bathe the station in radiation? What happens if I throw the supermatter sliver at someone important, in a public area? Can I kidnap someone and turn them into a space dragon against their will?" And so on.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by iamgoofball » #653225

Itseasytosee2me wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:49 pm Oranges, ever piece of information or opinion I can pry out of your skull is a personal victory for me.
oranges is the most up front and blunt person in the community, if you feel the need to "pry" info out of his skull then I suspect you aren't reading anything he's posted
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #653233

iamgoofball wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:46 pm
Itseasytosee2me wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:49 pm Oranges, ever piece of information or opinion I can pry out of your skull is a personal victory for me.
oranges is the most up front and blunt person in the community, if you feel the need to "pry" info out of his skull then I suspect you aren't reading anything he's posted
No goof thats you
- Sincerely itseasytosee
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by TheSmallBlue » #653234

I'd really like to be able to bring back old tot *through* prog tot. Let me be able to choose big high rep objectives from round start with the caveat being that I can't cancel them and even when completed they do not go away, basically locking an objective slot. Also raise the objective slots to three instead of two.
You also shouldn't be able to fill all your slots with these perma objectives, at least one slot should always be free.

This'll let people who like prog tot be more proactive in the rounds and cause more mayhem, while little pussies that get anxious by progtot, aka me, can just focus on the big objectives and still get a green text, while also leaving the possibility of doing smaller objectives open for getting TC.
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Re: (Maintainer question) What elements of progression tot need to be maintained in the event of a rework

Post by Waltermeldron » #653416

TheSmallBlue wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:13 pm I'd really like to be able to bring back old tot *through* prog tot. Let me be able to choose big high rep objectives from round start with the caveat being that I can't cancel them and even when completed they do not go away, basically locking an objective slot. Also raise the objective slots to three instead of two.
You also shouldn't be able to fill all your slots with these perma objectives, at least one slot should always be free.

This'll let people who like prog tot be more proactive in the rounds and cause more mayhem, while little pussies that get anxious by progtot, aka me, can just focus on the big objectives and still get a green text, while also leaving the possibility of doing smaller objectives open for getting TC.
Someone suggested this to me a while back, it may have been spookuni.
I told them that I'm not opposed to reintroducing greentext in the form of old objectives, alongside the regular objective system.
These objectives would be picked at the start of the round and would act as your 'permanent' objective, ones that need to be completed by the end of the round for greentext. Alternatively, unlocking and taking the final objective would also give greentext.

If someone wants to program this, I'm not opposed to it at all, but it should mesh well with the progression traitor system. E.g. if you have a steal/kill objective, you should not be able to get a duplicate version of it.
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