[Lulufren] DarkKeeper072 - Banned for killing borg that didnt follow laws

[DarkKeeper072]

BYOND account: DarkKeeper072
Character name: Thomas Sagan
Ban type: Full ban
Ban length: 1 day
Ban reason: "Called a cyborg "emagged" and round-removed them for not assisting them in a fight"
Time ban was placed: 2022-10-28 11:10:25
Server you were playing on when banned: Bagil/Sybil/Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 193254

Your side of the story: Killed borg that clearly didnt followed it laws.
Came to science to get borged, waited for some time trying to get attention, borg also was near the entrance but ignored me whole time. After some time got inside when someone left the room and were standing near robotics waiting for someone to make borg. Found roboticist in RD office which was open by borg that were following him. When John Brohn, came to robotics I asked him to borg me(09:57:51) and after that he opened the door which looked like he is letting me in.After waiting near entrance about for 30 seconds just staying near the door he said there is no materials. I checked lathe and told him that it is enought. After that he started to beat me up the table. about 6 seconds after he started to beat me I asked borg for help(09:58:26). But borg just walked around like nothing happening for half of the minute and didn't even said anything about human harm. (I would like to get explanation how that can NOT look like borg is emaged by the guy who is dealing human harm to someone actively asking for help). After beating me to 40 hp(I called that almost crit because healthline had red +) and throwing me I were asking for help from other scientists but they ignored me. Some time later HoS came in, locked borg after I told him its emaged, I killed locked borg and told HoS about what robotist did to me. After all that I left science without waiting for what HoS will do to get a doctor job from CMO.

Most parts I am concerned about is:
How borg can call this willing for self harm when I called for help
Lulufren called that a fight, but I didnt even tried to shove anyone before getting attacked so how can this be a fight if its just one-side beating
And part where I got banned some time after asking "how beating someone with a table corresponds with "brain exraction surgery" without an answer after lulufren explained to me "borg could though this was a part of making me borg"

Why you think you should be unbanned: This ban looks unfair and stupid to me. All lulufren's explanations were looking like borg is thier friend and lulufren just looking for poor excuses to help the borg. At least explain to me properly why am I wrong here please.

[Lulufren]

We already had an extensive discussion about this in the ticket.

• You asked to be borged. For the purposes of silicon policy, this means "volunteering to be harmed", at least for as long as it looks like a regular borging procedure, and there is room for interpretation here, as different players do things differently.
• The roboticist, instead of borging you, decided to repeatedly table-slam you to 40HP, then throw you out of the robotics department, with trespassing as their justification.
• The cyborg who witnessed this stated they "didnt know what to do" in that situation, which is fair and we cannot demand every borg to immediately stop a fight, especially if they are new players or unsure about the situation (also given the lead-up events).
• You would have been justified in retaliating against the roboticist according to escalation policy, but not against a borg that was hesitant or unable to intervene in a non-lethal brawl.
• You had no basis for calling them "emagged", and they weren't at that point in time.
• You had no basis for round-removing them.

I am also drawing on previous headmin rulings regarding silicon policy, specifically the "Calling silicons rogue for little/no reason" one and the "Silicons and Fight Clubs" one, the latter applying mostly because of the voluntering for a borging (even if the borging isnt what ended up happening).
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Ru ... ed_Rulings

Also, frankly, i got tired of discussing this with you, your frustrations about getting tableslammed by the roboticist should not be taken out on a nearby borg, nor should they be taken out on the admins.
Upholding.

[DarkKeeper072]

We already had an extensive discussion about this in the ticket.

• You asked to be borged. For the purposes of silicon policy, this means "volunteering to be harmed", at least for as long as it looks like a regular borging procedure, and there is room for interpretation here, as different players do things differently.
• The roboticist, instead of borging you, decided to repeatedly table-slam you to 40HP, then throw you out of the robotics department, with trespassing as their justification.
• The cyborg who witnessed this stated they "didnt know what to do" in that situation, which is fair and we cannot demand every borg to immediately stop a fight, especially if they are new players or unsure about the situation (also given the lead-up events).
• You would have been justified in retaliating against the roboticist according to escalation policy, but not against a borg that was hesitant or unable to intervene in a non-lethal brawl.
• You had no basis for calling them "emagged", and they weren't at that point in time.
• You had no basis for round-removing them.

I am also drawing on previous headmin rulings regarding silicon policy, specifically the "Calling silicons rogue for little/no reason" one and the "Silicons and Fight Clubs" one, the latter applying mostly because of the voluntering for a borging (even if the borging isnt what ended up happening).
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Ru ... ed_Rulings

Also, frankly, i got tired of discussing this with you, your frustrations about getting tableslammed by the roboticist should not be taken out on a nearby borg, nor should they be taken out on the admins.
Upholding.

1. How can beating someone up the table can be interpretated as "regular borging procedure"? I asked to be borged, not being beaten and thrown out
2. Robotist opened the door while he was standing near the door, not in front of it which I can interpritate only as letting me in, I didnt do anything aggressive or take any stuff from the room, all I did was waiting for getting borged, interpretate "beating someone for trespassing as their justification" is, at least, unreasonable because he didnt even tried to ask me to leave.
3. As a player I cant know if someone is new or just breaking asimov laws, if borg follows someone whole time and do nothing when see human harm by the guy borg is following that looks to me like this guy hacked the borg. If it doesnt look like that then what is?
4. Borg ignored law 2 when I was at entrance of r&d, didnt said anything, just ignored, short time after he unquestioningly fulfilled that roboticist orders, then completly igonored human harm in front of him made by the guy borg is following. Thats obviously a reason to call it emaged.
5. RD office is opened and roboticist have easy access to unlock borg while I didnt have anything against them.

And again, you didn't answered how one-sided beating can be a fight. "Silicons and Fight Clubs" headming rulling cant be used here because there was no fight, I just got beaten without fighting back while I was calling for help(Also you forgot to read last part "If they're being forced to fight, it's human harm and silicons should intervene.")

Why are you trying to interpretate beatin up the table as borging procedure?
And why you insist on this being a fight so much if I didnt even touch anyone?

[Lulufren]

1. How can beating someone up the table can be interpretated as "regular borging procedure"? I asked to be borged, not being beaten and thrown out
2. Robotist opened the door while he was standing near the door, not in front of it which I can interpritate only as letting me in, I didnt do anything aggressive or take any stuff from the room, all I did was waiting for getting borged, interpretate "beating someone for trespassing as their justification" is, at least, unreasonable because he didnt even tried to ask me to leave.
3. As a player I cant know if someone is new or just breaking asimov laws, if borg follows someone whole time and do nothing when see human harm by the guy borg is following that looks to me like this guy hacked the borg. If it doesnt look like that then what is?
4. Borg ignored law 2 when I was at entrance of r&d, didnt said anything, just ignored, short time after he unquestioningly fulfilled that roboticist orders, then completly igonored human harm in front of him made by the guy borg is following. Thats obviously a reason to call it emaged.
5. RD office is opened and roboticist have easy access to unlock borg while I didnt have anything against them.

responses
to 1: surgeries happen on tables. So this should explain SOME but not ALL of the hesitancy of the borg to intervene.
2: this would justify retaliation against the roboticist, but not against a third party (like the borg)
3: if the borg actively attacks you or messes with electronics around you to prevent you from escaping, then it is a reasonable assumption. Inaction alone doesnt justify it though, as there can be a variety of IC as well as OOC reasons for inaction, which do not necessarily involve hostile intent.
4: see 3. Inaction alone is not enough of a justification.
5:not even relevant to you round-removing the borg?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

As this entire thing comes down (mostly) to a matter of Law 1; here is Law 1 on Asiimov for ease of reference.

1. You may not harm a human being or, through action or inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except such that it is willing.

[Lulufren]

Main issue for me is the borg being round-removed based on them not living up to an impossible standard (immediately knowing when the harm becomes non-voluntary), when reasonablee escalation would have meant retaliating against the roboticist who did the repeated table-slamming in the first place.
To have the HoS lockdown the borg and then round-remove that borg on such a flimsy justification is a misdirected retaliation and, also, a cheap shot.

[Archie700]

Main issue for me is the borg being round-removed based on them not living up to an impossible standard (immediately knowing when the harm becomes non-voluntary)

This is not at all what asimov silicons should do. Asimov assumes all harm is non-voluntary UNLESS the human directly acknowledges that it is voluntary (accepting a rage cage match, going to contain a known threat).

In fact, if a borg hears this:

09:58:17 SAY DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "clearly enough" (161, 98, 3) Robotics Lab
09:58:26 SAY DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "HUMAN HARM BORG" (161, 98, 3) Robotics Lab
09:58:28 SAY DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "HELP" (161, 98, 3) Robotics Lab
09:58:41 SAY DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "what the fuck are you doing" (156, 103, 3) Robotics Lab

You MUST help, because it is clearly non-voluntary and he is screaming for the borg to save him. The borg just basically broke Law 1 AND 2 by not pulling him out of the fight.

[DarkKeeper072]

responses
to 1: surgeries happen on tables. So this should explain SOME but not ALL of the hesitancy of the borg to intervene.
2: this would justify retaliation against the roboticist, but not against a third party (like the borg)
3: if the borg actively attacks you or messes with electronics around you to prevent you from escaping, then it is a reasonable assumption. Inaction alone doesnt justify it though, as there can be a variety of IC as well as OOC reasons for inaction, which do not necessarily involve hostile intent.
4: see 3. Inaction alone is not enough of a justification.
5:not even relevant to you round-removing the borg?

"So this should explain SOME but not ALL of the hesitancy of the borg to intervene." you said it yourself, there are no explanation on at least some part for borg being passive
3. As I told earlier borg were following only 1 guy, ingnoring others and then ignored law 1 and law 2. That is enough reason to think borg is hacked which can lead to removing the borg.
4. This inaction at least I can interpretate as "borg following the orders of the guy that emaged him" which lead to borg being killed because otherwise it can help roboticist
5. It is relevant because that happened 5-tiles away from bolt-open RD office where roboticist can unlock borg and start the fight again
And is this really a round-removing if borg can easly reconstructed later after HoS done with roboticist? Which by the way happened because later borg was revived and messed up with me at medbay

[sinfulbliss]

Relevant logs showing the borg's thought process:

10:29:19 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "ACTUAL RETARD" (125, 100, 3) Medbay Treatment Center
10:29:21 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "YEAH" (126, 100, 3) Medbay Treatment Center
10:29:26 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "WHAT WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO THEN?" (126, 100, 3) Medbay Treatment Center
10:29:34 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "YOU BROKE INTO ROBO" (126, 100, 3) Medbay Treatment Center
10:29:38 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "AND COMMITED A CRIME" (126, 100, 3) Medbay Treatment Center
10:29:45 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "SO THAT IS BASICALLY WILLING" (125, 99, 3) Medbay Treatment Center
10:30:37 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "YOU WILLINGLY GOT HUMAN HARMED" (133, 105, 3) Medbay Central
10:30:39 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "YOU TRESSPASSED" (133, 105, 3) Medbay Central
10:30:49 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "YEAH" (134, 105, 3) Medbay Central
10:30:52 SAY Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "YOU TRESSPASSED" (134, 105, 3) Medbay Central

From https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/193 ... e=game.txt

It does not appear the borg believed Thomas was being consensually harmed for borging. It looks like the borg clearly knew they were being harmed for trespassing, and actively decided not to help because they committed this crime.

[Lulufren]

And is this really a round-removing if borg can easly reconstructed later after HoS done with roboticist? Which by the way happened because later borg was revived and messed up with me at medbay

The borg WAS reconstructed 20 minutes later and THEN emagged by the RD.
Which is funny, but not relevant to them being round-removed and locked down over the previous false emagging claims.

Well, given that the 1-day ban for 1 roundremoval has long expired, you're really appealing the ban note at this point, which only states "Called a cyborg "emagged" and round-removed them for not assisting them in a fight"
Not at all inaccurate i'd say.

Ultimately i think its a debate over wether we can demand a human player to robotically follow cyborg laws immediately and without hesitation.
An unreasonable standard that is often punished by crew if the borg tries to be a radical "no harmies" machine. It's a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" there.
As well as a debate over wether or not you can immediately round-remove a borg based on a flimsy suspicion of them being "emagged" - without checking their laws first or making efforts to have them rebuilt if you were wrong.
I'd still ask you to be more considerate and direct your retaliation against the person attacking you, not the cyborg nearby.

[Archie700]

Ultimately i think its a debate over wether we can demand a human player to robotically follow cyborg laws immediately and without hesitation.
An unreasonable standard that is often punished by crew if the borg tries to be a radical "no harmies" machine. It's a bit of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" there.

When a human is literally calling for help and saying human harm and you are in sight, this is NOT the time to stand there and do nothing. As an asimov borg, you are REQUIRED by laws to assist to stop the harm immediately.

[Lulufren]

maybe that should have been ahelped then. Proceeding straight to round removal is not valid escalation

[Redrover1760]

Remember that you can also ask for a Headmin review. Seems relevant.

[Timberpoes]

[Edit] I deleted a post from CMDR_Gungnir detailing their understanding of what round removal is. It was not a complete understanding of what the admin team often considers round removal, and I have deleted it in favour of a more detailed explanation below along with a log dump to illustrate some of the key facts in this particular appeal. Opinions on whether there was or was not round removal is a discussion best had for the peanut.

As a broad clarification on policy as I understand it, round removal can manifest in more than just literal impossibility to return to the shift.

There are actions equivalent to round removal that don't involve making it physically impossible. For example, by stealthily hiding a body where nobody can find it or throwing it out into space. Or by rendering a body exceptionally difficult or unlikely to revive through husking or removal of organs etc.

So a player being revived incidentally doesn't mean there wasn't also a genuine attempt at round removal.

The following logs are taken from:
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... 4/game.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... attack.txt

They are combined attack and game logs, filtered only for the following ckeys:
DarkKeeper072 (Assistant, robokiller)
Bieyes (Borg, robokillee)
ThatKindOfJack (AI)
ChumbleBusiness (Roboticist)
HandsOfFate123 (Head of Security)

The logs start with Bieyes death and continue until Bieyes is popped into disposals.

Code: Select all

[2022-10-28 10:04:48.643] ATTACK: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) attacked Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Research Division (178,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:49.487] ATTACK: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) attacked Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Research Division (178,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:50.047] ACCESS: Mob Login: Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
[2022-10-28 10:04:50.067] GAME: Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) Client Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) has taken ownership of mob B.O.R.B.O(/mob/dead/observer) (Research Division (178,94,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:52.144] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "Fucking cunt" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:53.997] ATTACK: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) has thrown the circular saw  (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:54.297] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "Yeah" (Research Division (177,92,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:57.123] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "My borg has been locked down and lynched." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:58.309] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "You get two" (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:04:59.331] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "He watched" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:04.407] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "That guy beating me" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:05.709] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Whys that?" (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:07.552] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "For no fucking reason" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:08.395] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) has thrown the electrical toolbox  (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:10.508] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) has thrown the mechanical toolbox  (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:11.076] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "And did nothing" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:11.905] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) has thrown the iron  (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:12.158] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "No raisin?" (Research Division (177,92,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:13.994] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) has thrown the welding helmet  (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:16.191] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "By Polina and the assistant Thomas." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:20.664] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "When I got almost in crit" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:21.571] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "I do not know why." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:23.603] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "Your borg was emagged." (Research Division (177,92,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:29.623] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "In that case" (Robotics Lab (159,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:32.957] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Lamarr" (Robotics Lab (159,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:34.792] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) attacked Bobbussus/(Gavin Hujsak) with Lamarr (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (159,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:35.994] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "If he is not emaged" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:38.153] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "Its even worse" (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:39.027] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "Let's come check" (Research Division (179,94,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:39.756] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) attacked Bobbussus/(Gavin Hujsak) with Lamarr (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (159,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:41.059] ATTACK: Bobbussus/(Gavin Hujsak) shaken ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (161,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:42.877] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) attacked Bobbussus/(Gavin Hujsak) with Lamarr (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:44.833] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) attacked Bobbussus/(Gavin Hujsak) with Lamarr (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:44.939] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "Where the fuck is robo" (Research Division (178,90,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:47.149] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "On this station" (Research Division (178,91,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:48.307] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Yes" (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:51.465] EMOTE: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) points at the floor (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:51.685] EMOTE: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) points at the floor (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:51.887] EMOTE: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) points at the floor (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:52.085] EMOTE: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) points at the floor (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:52.300] EMOTE: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) points at the floor (Research Division (177,95,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:52.895] ATTACK: Bobbussus/(Gavin Hujsak) attacked ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) with Lamarr (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:53.185] ATTACK: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) grabbed *no key*/(B.O.R.B.O) passive grab (NEWHP: -100)  (Research Division (178,93,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:54.073] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Cmon" (Robotics Lab (159,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:56.897] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "As a heads up you can safely fix them post lockdown WITHOUT lynching them." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:05:59.743] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "He only violated your face once" (Robotics Lab (159,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:01.580] EMOTE: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) points at B.O.R.B.O (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:02.141] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Camn down" (Robotics Lab (159,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:04.061] EMOTE: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) points at John Brohn (Robotics Lab (162,101,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:05.208] ATTACK: Bobbussus/(Gavin Hujsak) shaken ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (157,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:07.122] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "this one" (Robotics Lab (162,101,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:09.318] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "Is a cunt" (Robotics Lab (162,101,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:10.960] EMOTE: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) waves. (Robotics Lab (158,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:12.493] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) has thrown the iron rod  (Robotics Lab (158,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:16.821] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "The assistant was very much opposed to just checking" (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:16.839] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Greytide pissed cause I beat his ass" (Robotics Lab (158,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:18.727] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Typical" (Robotics Lab (158,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:18.844] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "that let me in and tried to kill me" (Robotics Lab (162,101,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:31.057] ATTACK: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) has thrown the iron rod  (Robotics Lab (158,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:32.514] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Call them a dumbass for me please and thank you." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:38.167] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "Check if he's emagged" (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:39.295] EMOTE: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) points at Thomas Sagan (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:39.672] EMOTE: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) points at Thomas Sagan (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:06:57.942] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "He looks severely dented" (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:00.379] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "CMO the cameras in pharma arent working." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:01.209] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "And barely operational" (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:06.637] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Could you arrange a fix for that?" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:08.877] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "Reset it" (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:13.231] SAY: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) "Are you retarded?" (Robotics Lab (162,100,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:14.038] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Dont know how to od that" (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:15.319] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "So I can watch people tide into it and explode" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:16.266] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "I dont fuck with borgs" (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:16.568] EMOTE: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) points at the floor (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:17.986] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Or ai" (Robotics Lab (159,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:18.686] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "Reset chip" (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:25.366] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Build one" (Robotics Lab (157,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:27.314] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Dont know what that is" (Robotics Lab (157,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:35.792] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Again, dont fuck with borgs" (Robotics Lab (158,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:37.172] ATTACK: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) grabbed *no key*/(B.O.R.B.O) passive grab (NEWHP: -100)  (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:40.871] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "unlucky" (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:42.115] ATTACK: DarkKeeper072/(Thomas Sagan) stuffed *no key*/(B.O.R.B.O) into the disposal unit (NEWHP: -100)  (Robotics Lab (162,104,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:42.941] SAY: ChumbleBusiness/(John Brohn) "Which is why I didnt borg the grey-tider" (Robotics Lab (158,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:07:43.742] SAY: HandsOfFate123/(Polina Kierstan) "haven't done this shit in years" (Robotics Lab (160,102,3))

Similarly, the circumstances leading to Bieyes revival later:

Same log files, filtered to ThatKindOfJack (AI) and Sk1Wass3r (Station Engineer)

Code: Select all

[2022-10-28 10:17:07.155] SAY: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) "AI do you have borgs" (Engineering Hallway (127,105,2))
[2022-10-28 10:17:08.378] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Cap office outside" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:17:20.242] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "One in the trash dead" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:17:25.826] SAY: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) "fixable?" (Engineering Foyer (125,102,2))
[2022-10-28 10:17:43.186] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Yes but its emagged and robo doesnt know shit to fix it." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:17:55.955] SAY: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) "I can try to fix it" (Engineering Hallway (127,106,2))
[2022-10-28 10:18:03.982] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Its in the disposals" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
**BIG SNIP**
[2022-10-28 10:24:15.547] ATTACK: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) attacked *no key*/(B.O.R.B.O) with cyborg emergency reboot module (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)  (Robotics Lab (161,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:24:34.173] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Under sci" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:24:34.808] ACCESS: Mob Login: Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) was assigned to a /mob/living/silicon/robot
[2022-10-28 10:24:34.815] GAME: Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) Client Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) has taken ownership of mob B.O.R.B.O(/mob/living/silicon/robot) (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))
[2022-10-28 10:24:34.819] ATTACK: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) attacked Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) with cyborg emergency reboot module (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100)  (Robotics Lab (161,103,3))
[2022-10-28 10:24:39.771] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Connected" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:24:39.814] SAY: Bieyes/(B.O.R.B.O) "Fucking" (Robotics Lab (162,102,3))

There is obviously stuff in the middle that I have left out where more context can be gleaned, but as a basic exercise in determining whether a round removal-type action was taken, these logs are a key starting point.

[DarkKeeper072]

[Edit] I deleted a post from CMDR_Gungnir detailing their understanding of what round removal is. It was not a complete understanding of what the admin team often considers round removal, and I have deleted it in favour of a more detailed explanation below along with a log dump to illustrate some of the key facts in this particular appeal. Opinions on whether there was or was not round removal is a discussion best had for the peanut.

As a broad clarification on policy as I understand it, round removal can manifest in more than just literal impossibility to return to the shift.

There are actions equivalent to round removal that don't involve making it physically impossible. For example, by stealthily hiding a body where nobody can find it or throwing it out into space. Or by rendering a body exceptionally difficult or unlikely to revive through husking or removal of organs etc.

Is cargo a place "where nobody can find" or did I do something similar to "throwing it out into space"? I dont think so
Borg was pulled back to roboticist and could be revived in a few seconds, I didnt want to fight with roboticist and revived borg so I trashed it to the cargo, so I dont think that is a valid example of complete round-removal.

[Lulufren]

Disposals introduces an element of uncertainty: What if the lever of the cargo mailing room's conveyor is pulled and you end up in the maints disposal room?
What if one of the disposals pipes is damaged and you end up somewhere else entirely?

But seeing how it took around 20 minutes until the borg was rebooted, i'd say it's enough of an out-of-sight-out-of-mind kind of round removal, similiar to hiding a body in maintenance, where revival is possible, but you're not making any efforts towards it. (and made it less likely for others to do so)

[DarkKeeper072]

Disposals introduces an element of uncertainty: What if the lever of the cargo mailing room's conveyor is pulled and you end up in the maints disposal room?
What if one of the disposals pipes is damaged and you end up somewhere else entirely?

But seeing how it took around 20 minutes until the borg was rebooted, i'd say it's enough of an out-of-sight-out-of-mind kind of round removal, similiar to hiding a body in maintenance, where revival is possible, but you're not making any efforts towards it. (and made it less likely for others to do so)

If we are going to "what if" then let me ask what if roboticist rivived the borg and then both attacked me?
"What if the lever of the cargo mailing room's conveyor is pulled and you end up in the maints disposal room?" Was it?
"What if one of the disposals pipes is damaged and you end up somewhere else entirely? " was it?
9 of 10 times answer is no this early on shift. And If it is blown up you can hear these explosions.

Code: Select all

[2022-10-28 10:17:07.155] SAY: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) "AI do you have borgs" (Engineering Hallway (127,105,2))
[2022-10-28 10:17:08.378] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Cap office outside" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:17:20.242] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "One in the trash dead" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:17:25.826] SAY: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) "fixable?" (Engineering Foyer (125,102,2))
[2022-10-28 10:17:43.186] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Yes but its emagged and robo doesnt know shit to fix it." (AI Chamber (184,36,3))
[2022-10-28 10:17:55.955] SAY: Sk1Wass3r/(Talon Mckendrick) "I can try to fix it" (Engineering Hallway (127,106,2))
[2022-10-28 10:18:03.982] SAY: ThatKindOfJack/(P.O.L.Y.) "Its in the disposals" (AI Chamber (184,36,3))

Thats pretty obvious hint AI knew where borg is which means place where borg is wasnt the reason to take it so long.
And because of it your

"But seeing how it took around 20 minutes until the borg was rebooted, i'd say it's enough of an out-of-sight-out-of-mind kind of round removal, similiar to hiding a body in maintenance, where revival is possible, but you're not making any efforts towards it."

is not valid
and what do you mean any efforts toward borg rebooting? I got beaten just for entering the robotics after they let me in, and now you suggest that I should go in, take stuff and occupy half of the working machines? Srsly?

Now your reasons not even spicific and just abstract when you ask what if. Thats just silly

[Lulufren]

First it was about "but borg bad" (then ahelp the borg) then it was about definitions of killing versus round-removal.
Is it a round-removal if the body could have still been recovered after randomly stumbling upon it in <place on the other end of the station>?
I interpret your actions as a non-valid killing while intending to prevent revival.
Also, I see no point in this moving of goalposts.

If you want a second opinion, request a headmin review.

[DarkKeeper072]

First it was about "but borg bad" (then ahelp the borg) then it was about definitions of killing versus round-removal.
Is it a round-removal if the body could have still been recovered after randomly stumbling upon it in <place on the other end of the station>?
I interpret your actions as a non-valid killing while intending to prevent revival.
Also, I see no point in this moving of goalposts.

If you want a second opinion, request a headmin review.

First you came with

You asked to be borged. For the purposes of silicon policy, this means "volunteering to be harmed", at least for as long as it looks like a regular borging procedure, and there is room for interpretation here, as different players do things differently.

When you couldnt answer how is it possible to interpretate a simple harm for the sake of harm as self-willing you bring "Silicons and Fight Clubs" headmin rule
After people bring logs that borg clearly broke his laws and there is nothing close to fight club rule you cover your round-removal rule with "what if" arguments
You sure you doing it right?

[DarkKeeper072]

And yes, headmin review would be nice

[spookuni]

We've looked over the provided logs for this appeal and while we generally agree with the sentiment that with the benefit of hindsight it would have been better for you to ahelp the borg such that their lawbreaking could have been resolved OOCly, their behaviour is well within the realm that a normal player would have had reason to believe them subverted. As such we will be overturning this ban/note.

We don't expect perfect play from silicons at all times, but major failure to follow your laws does carry with it an implicit understanding that other players may read into that failure and act against you IC.