[Scriptis] Realthoman_ - toxins fiasco appeal

[toemas]

BYOND account: realthoman
Character name: Phillip Thomas
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 4320 minutes
Ban reason: Overescalation - as a nonantagonist, threw a fellow scientist into a toxins fire they accidentally caused because they said something that ticked them off. This resulted in the death, husking, and full delimbment of the body, which was nearly reduced to ash. This is overescalation, take some time off.
Time ban was placed: 2022-11-12 05:24:19
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 194169
Your side of the story: I had witnessed Seth Deces utilizing some sort of igniter exploit lag machine contraption, where he somehow stacked like 1000 igniters together and then activated them in the hallways, which seemed to cause considerable lag and also activated all of the fire alarms in the area, which was very irritating. seth then entered toxins where i was doing my job, made a little holofan box right next to the plasma canisters, filled the box with plasma, and then threw his contraption in. Predictably, this caused a plasma fire. The holofans somehow broke (i was SSD for a short period at the time so i did not witness this, i assumed that he broken them or something) i stunbatoned seth (i miraculously found a baton prior) and interrogated him for a bit. He claimed that it was an accident and that it wasnt his fault, He claimed it was an accident and demanded that i let him go then called me a dickhead, so i proceeded to toss him into the fire he made.
Why you think you should be unbanned:
Seth clearly wasnt acting in good faith by trying to lag the server with his wierd exploit thing. He didnt try to put out the fire or even apologize for anything; he just ran into xenobio and then started immediately started trying to lag the server again while toxins burnt down. At the time i didnt really know if he was intentionally trying to lag the server or burn down toxins or not but it seemed like to me that he was very likely an antagonist or griefing. I was going to just assume good faith and let him go when he called me a dickhead and i was just like "whatever screw this guy" and tossed him into the inferno. I really dont think that it was an honest accident, he was literally griefing by trying to lag the server when he just incidentally ended up burning down my department aswell, so it seems like it was very justified for me to toss him into the fire that he had created.




some logs from the prior round and the current one regarding the lag machine

► Show Spoiler

03:10:15 OOC Bingus13/(Bingus13) "[100% FREE LAG]" (8, 174, 1) start area
03:17:11 SAY Helplesscrane/(Lucy Cicero) "im lagingg" (111, 170, 2) Security Locker Room
03:17:56 SAY Soulsoul/(Oliva Styles) "laging" (133, 110, 2) Hydroponics
03:21:26 SAY Wolfmoy/(Adam Williams) "Spes lag?" (150, 129, 2) Greater Starboard Maintenance
03:25:08 SAY Soulsoul/(Oliva Styles) "am lagging myy ass off" (133, 111, 2) Hydroponics
03:26:36 SAY Soulsoul/(Oliva Styles) "lag" (127, 126, 2) Central Primary Hallway
03:30:26 SAY Plusk/(Camryn Laurenzi) "why the fuck am i lagging" (74, 169, 2) Fore Port Maintenance
03:32:49 SAY Tgent007/(Eliot Owens) "wow you would bully a man with spacelag" (96, 171, 2) Security Medical
03:34:55 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "lag" (101, 108, 2) Medbay Lobby
03:34:58 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "im lagging" (94, 108, 2) Security Post - Medbay
03:35:00 SAY Plusk/(Camryn Laurenzi) "lag???" (155, 187, 2) Space
03:35:15 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "when the space lag" (101, 107, 2) Pharmacy
03:35:30 SAY Velaxco18/(THE REAL SPACE WIZARD) (DEAD) "what is this lag" (93, 106, 2) Medbay Central
03:37:18 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "lag machine" (89, 81, 2) Medbay Central
03:37:35 SAY Kidgenius702/(Jose Shah) (DEAD) "light lag machine" (93, 109, 2) Security Post - Medbay
03:37:36 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "a lag machine" (88, 100, 2) Medbay Central
03:41:08 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "so I guess the condenser is better than the igniter for lagging shit" (117, 130, 2) Captain's Quarters
03:41:15 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "meaning it's double the lag" (118, 132, 2) Captain's Quarters
03:41:33 GAME *no key*/(Reed Mccune) Reed Mccune name changed from Reed Mccune to Patience Maclagan (184, 86, 2) Xenobiology Lab
03:41:33 GAME *no key*/(Patience Maclagan) Patience Maclagan name changed from Patience Maclagan to monkey (254) (184, 86, 2) Xenobiology Lab
03:41:50 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "if you're spamming a lagmachine" (113, 95, 2) Robotics Lab
03:42:31 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "lagmachine as a antag" (119, 135, 2) Captain's Quarters
03:42:44 SAY TheWolfbringer/(Alec Petrov) (DEAD) "it lagged me" (120, 135, 2) Captain's Quarters
03:48:39 SAY Plusk/(Camryn Laurenzi) "lag" (131, 169, 2) Fore Maintenance
03:52:27 SAY Plusk/(Camryn Laurenzi) "so much lag" (68, 168, 2) Fore Port Maintenance
03:52:37 SAY Max260/(Henry Atkinson) (DEAD) "lagging us" (69, 169, 2) Fore Port Maintenance
04:03:05 SAY Zen Master24/(magicarp) "ahhh lag" (117, 110, 2) Science Lobby
04:04:06 SAY Zen Master24/(magicarp) "ahh space lag" (90, 138, 2) Vacant Commissary
04:10:10 SAY antzomb/(Gunner Starbilge) "space lag is real today" (203, 84, 2) Flying Dutchman
05:29:33 SAY Plusk/(Camryn Laurenzi) (DEAD) "lagging my game" (77, 122, 4) Cargo Bay
05:32:02 SAY Plusk/(Camryn Laurenzi) (DEAD) "i killed you bcz u were doing a lag machine
04:34:00 OOC ToastGoats/(ToastGoats) "Apparently you can make a lag machine by attaching 100 igniters to eachother"

Damning evidence

► Show Spoiler

03:49:46 SAY Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "Imagine beign a DDOSER putting money into laggign TG seervers" (127, 134, 2) Central Primary Hallway
03:49:48 SAY Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "when all you need" (126, 137, 2) Central Primary Hallway
03:49:51 SAY Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "is a couple of igniters"

[iansdoor]

To add on, Seth did try out a 40 combined compressor on Campbell and it isn't igniters, its the cooling one. The device can chained compressors can infinitely chained together. I also lagged to a stutter with two others in a 4 population server, so I can imagine 50+ that it was picture frames.

[Scriptis]

The super ridiculous condenser chain from the round prior got somebody into trouble (we are paying attention).

Hoolny ahelped and cleared his condenser chain with me this time before using it. I used the server profiler to confirm that it wouldn't be an issue. I don't know what the upper bound is, but whatever he'd put together that shift, it wasn't a problem.

Given that he'd ahelped prior to make sure he wasn't affecting the server, it makes it somewhat obvious to me that he was in toxins to experiment with the efficacy of condenser cooling. The chat logs reaffirm this.

He had his toxins moment, I would've been cool with you demoting him (or killing him and sending to medbay) (or both!), but you opted to throw him (while you had him cuffed) into the fire as a nonantagonist, husking him, and nearly leading to his corpse being completely ashed, a-la plasmaman.

Full relevant logs (1, 2)

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

04:39:33	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "ai open"	(114, 87, 4)	Aft Primary Hallway
04:39:44	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "uj"	(114, 87, 4)	Aft Primary Hallway
04:40:00	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "ai open please"	(114, 86, 4)	Aft Primary Hallway
04:40:12	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "ai open to atmos"	(120, 92, 4)	Engineering Lobby
04:40:32	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "ai open"	(120, 92, 4)	Engineering Lobby
04:41:17	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "ai open"	(123, 95, 4)	Atmospherics
04:43:34	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "which scientist"	(182, 115, 4)	Research and Development
04:43:37	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "stole my machine"	(182, 115, 4)	Research and Development
04:43:41	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "give ti back you dick"	(182, 115, 4)	Research and Development
04:47:30	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "that huyrt"	(179, 99, 4)	Research Division
04:47:31	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "so much"	(179, 99, 4)	Research Division
04:51:24	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "its in"	(179, 104, 4)	Research Division
04:51:24	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "testing"	(179, 104, 4)	Research Division
04:51:27	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "a new machine"	(179, 104, 4)	Research Division
04:52:57	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "sup"	(188, 118, 4)	Research and Development
04:53:12	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "testing"	(186, 118, 4)	Research and Development
04:53:15	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "it a new amchien I amde"	(186, 118, 4)	Research and Development
04:53:25	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "new technolgoy my man"	(186, 118, 4)	Research and Development
04:57:29	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "testing"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:57:30	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "its limits"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:57:51	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "saddly it seems"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:57:52	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "it dosent stakc"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:57:54	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "and just keeps air"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:57:56	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "at -50"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:57:57	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "kelvin"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:57:58	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "which is"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:58:01	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "dissapointeing"	(179, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:58:40	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "50"	(180, 102, 4)	Research Division
04:58:41	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "it is"	(180, 102, 4)	Research Division
05:03:35	GAME	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) reset a fire alarm.	(179, 130, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
05:03:36	GAME	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) reset a fire alarm.	(179, 130, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
05:03:38	GAME	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) reset a fire alarm.	(180, 124, 4)	Research Division
05:03:39	GAME	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) reset a fire alarm.	(180, 124, 4)	Research Division
05:06:19	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "HELP"	(181, 104, 4)	Research Division
05:06:24	EMOTE	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) screams!	(176, 99, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:29	EMOTE	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) points at John McDumbhead	(172, 98, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:29	EMOTE	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) points at John McDumbhead	(172, 98, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:31	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "dick"	(173, 98, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:43	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) attacked Hoolny/(Seth Deces) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 30) 	(174, 99, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:43	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) stun attacked Hoolny/(Seth Deces) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 40) 	(174, 99, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:45	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) shoved Hoolny/(Seth Deces) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 30) 	(173, 98, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:49	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) attacked Hoolny/(Seth Deces) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 18.9) 	(173, 99, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:49	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) stun attacked Hoolny/(Seth Deces) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 29) 	(173, 99, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:51	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) attempted to handcuff Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (NEWHP: 17.1) 	(172, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:51	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "HELP"	(172, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:52	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "hey"	(172, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:53	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "why the fuck"	(172, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:53	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "hey idiot"	(172, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:54	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) failed to handcuff Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (NEWHP: 16.5) 	(173, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:54	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "you"	(174, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:55	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) attempted to handcuff Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (NEWHP: 16.5) 	(173, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:55	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "ar you stunnign me"	(172, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:57	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) failed to handcuff Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (NEWHP: 16.4) 	(174, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:59	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) attacked Hoolny/(Seth Deces) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 6.4) 	(173, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:59	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) stun attacked Hoolny/(Seth Deces) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 16.4) 	(173, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:06:59	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "that wasent"	(172, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:00	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "my fault"	(172, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:00	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "stop"	(173, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:03	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) attempted to handcuff Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (NEWHP: 5.4) 	(172, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:06	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "that didnt even make sense"	(172, 100, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:07	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) grabbed Hoolny/(Seth Deces) passive grab (NEWHP: 5.4) 	(172, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:07	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) handcuffed Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (NEWHP: 5.4) 	(172, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:08	SAY	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "I use dA CONDENSER"	(175, 101, 4)	Xenobiology Lab
05:07:13	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "out of the place"	(182, 104, 4)	Research Division
05:07:15	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "and it catche don fire"	(182, 104, 4)	Research Division
05:07:17	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "why"	(182, 105, 4)	Research Division
05:07:19	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "would you do this"	(182, 105, 4)	Research Division
05:07:19	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "condensers"	(182, 104, 4)	Research Division
05:07:20	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "make air colder"	(182, 104, 4)	Research Division
05:07:22	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "I DONT KNOW"	(184, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:24	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "what happened"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:26	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "i know what happened"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:29	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "it made a spark"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:29	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "it dosent make any sense"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:31	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "it lit the fire"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:33	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "yes"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:34	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "but why"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:36	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "was there plasma"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:39	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "outside of teh holo fans"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:41	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "You put plasma there"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:41	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "that dosent make"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:42	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "any sense"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:44	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "You must have"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:45	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "let some out"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:45	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "I PUTTE DPLASMA"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:46	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "INSIDE"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:47	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "You have"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:47	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "HOW"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:48	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "IT WAS INSIDE"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:50	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "HOLO FANS"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:51	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "why would you do this"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:54	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "IN TOXINS"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:55	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "that wouldtn eb possible"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:56	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "where ALL OF THE PLASMA IS"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:07:59	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "you could have done this"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:01	SAY	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) "anywhere else"	(185, 106, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:01	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "because the palsam canister was there"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:03	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "stop beign afucking dick"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:04	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "accidents"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:05	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "happen"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:07	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) grabbed Hoolny/(Seth Deces) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -26.6) 	(184, 104, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:07	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "and im dying"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:07	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "right now"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:09	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) thrown Hoolny/(Seth Deces) grab from tile in Ordnance Office (184,104,4) towards tile at Ordnance Lab (185,101,3) (NEWHP: -30.3) 	(184, 104, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:33	ATTACK	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) has died (BRUTE: 67.18, BURN: 137.6, TOX: 16, OXY: 6.66667, CLONE: 0)	(185, 100, 3)	Ordnance Lab
05:08:33	EMOTE	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) seizes up and falls limp, their eyes dead and lifeless...	(185, 100, 3)	Ordnance Lab

The part I take issue with:

Code: Select all

05:08:03	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "stop beign afucking dick"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:04	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "accidents"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:05	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "happen"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:07	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) grabbed Hoolny/(Seth Deces) aggressive grab (NEWHP: -26.6) 	(184, 104, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:07	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "and im dying"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:07	WHISPER	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) "right now"	(185, 105, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:09	ATTACK	Realthoman_/(Phillip Thomas) thrown Hoolny/(Seth Deces) grab from tile in Ordnance Office (184,104,4) towards tile at Ordnance Lab (185,101,3) (NEWHP: -30.3) 	(184, 104, 4)	Ordnance Office
05:08:33	ATTACK	Hoolny/(Seth Deces) has died (BRUTE: 67.18, BURN: 137.6, TOX: 16, OXY: 6.66667, CLONE: 0)	(185, 100, 3)	Ordnance Lab

[Shellton(Mario)]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/71222

[toemas]

Hoolny ahelped and cleared his condenser chain with me this time before using it.

not really fair for you to assume that because you cleared exploit usage privately with Seth, that other players should be expected to know this and not lynch over it? its actively spamming chat logs, triggering all the firelocks, and causing extreme lag, it looks like blatant grief to any player

I used the server profiler to confirm that it wouldn't be an issue. I don't know what the upper bound is, but whatever he'd put together that shift, it wasn't a problem.

it may not have been causing server lag, but all of the particles or something were clearly causing client lag for many players, as evidenced by the fact that numerous people were complaining about it in the logs i gave you above and the fact that he had even been lynched by other people for it prior. He clearly knew this was happening since he went out of his way to bring the device near people and also acknowledged that it was lagging people in dchat

Given that he'd ahelped prior to make sure he wasn't affecting the server, it makes it somewhat obvious to me that he was in toxins to experiment with the efficacy of condenser cooling. The chat logs reaffirm this.

how was i supposed to know this? and why is he testing his exploit lag machine right next to me when im trying to do my job, and doing it in toxins right next to all of the plasma canisters? and why is he going around and doing it in random places right next to people if hes just trying to "test the efficacy of condenser cooling" this is exploit abuse which is against the rules. why didnt you spawn him in the thunderdome or something?

He had his toxins moment, I would've been cool with you demoting him (or killing him and sending to medbay) (or both!), but you opted to throw him (while you had him cuffed) into the fire as a nonantagonist, husking him, and nearly leading to his corpse being completely ashed, a-la plasmaman.

tossing him into the fire seemed very justified given the information i had access to at the time, how should i have known that he got permission to use his not-allowed exploit grief lag machine and then go around using it infront of random people to lag their games? i understand your response to this is likely going to be "well you should have ahelped" but this is a roleplaying game and players are allowed to resolve situations IC without ahelping for clarification on every single situation

This is an IC issue that falls under Rule 4. "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag"

[Vekter]

Using an exploit or lagging the server doesn't fall under rule 4. If you are concerned that he is breaking the rules you should be adminhelping it, not round removing him.

[toemas]

Using an exploit or lagging the server doesn't fall under rule 4. If you are concerned that he is breaking the rules you should be adminhelping it, not round removing him.

The point is, his intentional grief and exploit abuse resulted in my entire department being burned down, which is absolutely "acting like an antag"
how am i supposed to believe the guy who i witnessed griefing using his exploit lag machine when he tells me that burning down my entire department was totally just an accident???
My actions were justified given the information i had available to me at the time. And they seem to be justified even further when we look back through the logs and see that he was, in fact, intentionally trying to lag the server and fuck with people

[Archie700]

I'm going to post logs on this and comment per peanut policy. (per melonmesa)

Earlier rounds had an issue with the condenser setups lagging the station. Seth Decas (Hoolny) knew of this and asked Scriptis whether he can set up his own to "test".

Scriptis approved after checking, but did not move Seth to thunderdome to test it out, or even alert the station about the test that would potentially lag this round, per logs.

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05:36:30	ADMIN	Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has created a command report: "42069", sent from "Central Command" with the sound "default_announcement".		
05:41:06	ADMIN	Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has created a command report: "You can have the real codes for 50,000 credits, which is roughly how much money it'll take us to replace this station", sent from "Central Command" with the sound "default_announcement".

Seth performed the test, and people apparently lagged, whether directly by his condenser set up or some other unlucky coincidence.

Then he went into toxins and apparently, according to Thomas, "seth then entered toxins where i was doing my job, made a little holofan box right next to the plasma canisters, filled the box with plasma, and then threw his contraption in. Predictably, this caused a plasma fire."

This by itself is enough for Rule 3, since Seth had no rhyme or reason to do this. And Seth is not a new player.

Predictably, after this, Thomas ended up removing him from the round for POSSIBLY lagging the server and making toxins explode horribly. And got banned from it.

Lagging the round or exploiting does not fall under Rule 3, but it DOES fall under Rule 1, as it affects multiple people on the server, and Seth had repeated the action that lagged the server the previous round. And after lagging, got killed for it. Problem is that Scriptis, the admin who banned Thomas for killing Seth, had approved the condenser setup that could potentially lag the server without explaining to the rest of the server, which means that Scriptis is NOT a neutral party to this.

Should Thomas have ahelped? I think it was a nonfactor, since by his words, "seth then entered toxins where i was doing my job, made a little holofan box right next to the plasma canisters, filled the box with plasma, and then threw his contraption in. Predictably, this caused a plasma fire.", Seth basically bombed his own department. Essentially, Thomas believed that Seth was acting like an antag, and there seems to be no reason to think otherwise.

EDIT: In sum, this was not a gimmick for self-antag that Scriptis approved. This was an action that could potentially, and has, caused people to lag. And nobody ingame knew it was approved prior to this.

[TheFinalPotato]

I don't think it's fair to hit brick for the lag. he didn't think it would cause it and his investigations didn't make him think it would, and he's an admin so not knowing is ok.
Really lag isn't a huge deal, like oh no the server stuttered, anyway, yaknow? Only cringe bit is people spamming something they KNOW is bad for the haha memes.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I don't think it's fair to hit brick for the lag. he didn't think it would cause it and his investigations didn't make him think it would, and he's an admin so not knowing is ok.
Really lag isn't a huge deal, like oh no the server stuttered, anyway, yaknow? Only cringe bit is people spamming something they KNOW is bad for the haha memes.

According to the peanut thread for this topic, Seth had done this in 4 out of 7 of his last shifts in the logs (Don't bean me for peanut posting, this is the core of my post, and is allowed under peanut posting policy), and also had already issue reported this lag machine ( https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/71222 ). Does that sound like spamming to you, doing it in 4/7 of his last shifts?

[Edit by Timberpoes - Snip speculation from the above.]

For example, from round 194165:

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[2022-11-12 03:37:33.147] EMOTE: Helplesscrane/(Lucy Cicero) points at the condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser-condenser assembly (Medbay Central (88,100,2))
...
[2022-11-12 03:37:43.996] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "I MADE" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:44.399] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "IT" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:46.195] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "ITS BEAUTIFUL" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:51.131] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "I made that" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:52.498] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "im so proud" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:53.633] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "of ymself" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:56.179] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "its not 20" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:56.665] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "its" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:57.721] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "250" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:59.044] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "consumers" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))
[2022-11-12 03:37:59.817] SAY: Hoolny/(Seth Deces) (DEAD) "together" (Medbay Central (90,98,2))

And immediately afterwards are the logs toemas put in the OP of this thread, where he says why spend money DDOSing when you can just use igniters - So Seth was VERY well informed that his actions would cause severe lag for players around him.

However, this thread is not about whether or not Seth Deces should be banned, it's about whether or not toemas's ban was warranted or not. Well - is it warranted to round remove someone for disrupting your entire shift by barging in to your workplace, blowing it (and nearly you) up, and very clearly intentionally trying to lag the hell out of you?

[Edit by Timberpoes - Further snipping of opinion/speculation from above.]

If that isn't cause for someone to get round removed, what the hell is?

[Timberpoes]

I have approved the above post as non-peanut after snipping some peanutty parts away from it.

Certain speculations should be done in the peanut thread, since (at least internally) we have logs of all tickets and know exactly what has been exchanged between both parties of a ticket. It would be up to Scriptis or the headmins to declassify the contents of any tickets related to (or relied upon in) this appeal.

[Timberpoes]

For ease of reference for those reviewing this appeal, the following tickets were between hoolny and scriptis during the shift thoman was banned:
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/194169/4
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/194169/5
https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/194169/6

There is no definite ruling on "extenuating circumstances permitting rule breaks".

It ordinarily comes down to individual admin discretion as to whether they feel any special circumstances mitigate or even eliminate a rule break, or convert a rule break into an IC issue.

[Scriptis]

With regards to the stupid condenser chains: I had only seen them the round prior (and the round where this ban was placed), and, again, I profiled the contraption to ensure it wasn't affecting server performance. It was not. Announce that I approved it? Why? From where I'm standing, it's not a big deal. It's not causing lag, and it's somebody's atmos experiment.

I won't speak for whether Hoolny should be actioned over anything happening before this shift, because I wasn't involved. I'm not omniscient, I can't see five shifts into the past.

The reason this was a three-day ban is because you had Hoolny in cuffs (in crit) and decided to RR him, with a note and a three-day ban from the past two weeks for similar overescalation. When I prompted the bus, their response was a one-week ban. I left it at three days because, yeah, the department you were in burned down, but it's still over-escalation.

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2022-10-25 06:22:36
As a assistant, attempted to explosive lance a officer twice for valid arrests. This is overescalation and you normally cannot use lethal force in response to a valid arrest.

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2022-10-22 02:00:55
Banned from the server for 3 days - As a assistant, was arrested by a officer for interfering in the arrest of a mass shoe thief, They were then brigged for 7 minutes. They broke out of the cell and then attacked the officer saying they wanted to fracture their bones and beat the officer to .4 HP. This is overescalation for a valid arrest.

The point of these actions (and this one) are to try to get you to calm down and think before you round-remove somebody. If you've got a guy in handcuffs, in crit, in front of you--and your immediate response to "stop being a dick, I'm dying" is I'm going to open this firelock and throw this person into the fire--that doesn't scream "yeah I get it" to me.

No, somebody else breaking the rules does not mean you get to round-remove them. Why not? Because of this. We end up here. If you don't want to end up here, you don't dispense vigilante justice.

As I said in my ticket with you (1),

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... no, not really, and even then only to the point of demotion and an execution, but still medbay after for nonantagonists

look man, i'd have expected you to ahelp if you went through the same thing. just take some time to cool off 

My limit on this is editing the note to include details about your frustration with the condenser chains. Beyond that, you should request headmin review.

[oranges]

>I profiled the contraption to ensure it wasn't affecting server performance. It was not.

With all due respect you're not qualified to make these calls and you shouldn't' assume that just because it profiles well that it doesn't impact client performance or affect people with chat spam.

You shouldn't be greenlighting people building weird machines that potentially cause lag if they have no actual gameplay value (They dont).

Frankly I dont' even understand how this whole ban appeal happened or came together but it shows a stunning lack of foresight on your part.

If people want to test the limits of the code they can do that offline at any time, or on campbell with it's server of 1.

[Scriptis]

>I profiled the contraption to ensure it wasn't affecting server performance. It was not.

...

The contraption is in a secluded corner of the station (lower icebox ordnance) within earshot of at most two players.

The contraption is not causing the server to crawl to a halt every time it is activated. The contraption does not, at a glance, appear to be significantly affecting TD, compared to when it is turned off. The contraption does not cause any change in the profiler. Nobody has ahelped, as in the round prior, that it is causing issues.

If nobody is acting like it's causing issues, and it doesn't seem to be causing issues, it probably isn't causing issues. I've worked in software engineering for a long time, but I don't think I need that experience to assume that "it's not a problem" is a reasonable assumption.

The one the round before? Yeah, that caused problems.

You shouldn't be greenlighting people building weird machines that potentially cause lag if they have no actual gameplay value (They dont).

No, that's what puts "sandbox" in "sandbox roleplaying game."

[toemas]

With regards to the stupid condenser chains: I had only seen them the round prior (and the round where this ban was placed), and, again, I profiled the contraption to ensure it wasn't affecting server performance. It was not. Announce that I approved it? Why? From where I'm standing, it's not a big deal. It's not causing lag, and it's somebody's atmos experiment.

It WAS causing lag for players i literally just gave you logs of people complaining about lag while near the machine and seth admitting to intentionally lagging peoples games with it, he literally made an issue report where he says that its an exploit used to lag peoples games

The point of these actions (and this one) are to try to get you to calm down and think before you round-remove somebody. If you've got a guy in handcuffs, in crit, in front of you--and your immediate response to "stop being a dick, I'm dying" is I'm going to open this firelock and throw this person into the fire--that doesn't scream "yeah I get it" to me.
No, somebody else breaking the rules does not mean you get to round-remove them. Why not? Because of this. We end up here. If you don't want to end up here, you don't dispense vigilante justice.

I did not kill Seth for breaking the rules. I killed him for doing something that caused chatspam, firelock hell, lag, and then burning down my department and fucking up my round. I had no reason to believe it was an honest mistake or that he had an ounce of good faith given that i had previously witnessed him doing wierd sinister heinous shit with lag machines, on top of that, failing to even apologize or even try to put out his own fire that he started

i should NOT have been banned or even noted for killing a player who was using something they knew to lag live servers, across several shifts, and this time, right infront of me, lighting a plasmafire in the process that proceeds to burn down my entire workplace.

It really does not feel like your treating me fairly here dude, im requesting headmin review.

[Scriptis]

Headmins have been notified.

[san7890]

Upon appeal, we have decided to strike down the ban and remove the note. Although reviewing the tickets tell one tale that might suggest the ban was founded at the time of placement- everything being recontextualized and reviewed in this appeal show that there is enough reasonable doubt that Thoman's actions in the moments of the event were justified in hindsight.

[san7890]

The previous post was a little bit sparse as to why the decision was made, so here's why:

Spookuni: There's a difference in reasonable reaction between someone fucking up and someone who's shown consistent recent behaviour indicating a pattern of grief. Initially this case strongly appeared to be the former, Thoman's ticket with Scriptis only referenced the condenser combo in one throw away line, and otherwise focused on the damage to toxins as justification for round removal - As Scriptis mentioned in the appeal thread, that's pretty serious overescalation, bonking them and taking them to medbay, handing them over to security, and/or demoting them would all indiviudally or together have been fine, but ashing their body in the fire would not have been. With the additional context of previous rounds however, I'm not confident enough to maintain belief that IC retribution was unwarranted to the degree that would merit a ban (escalated due to previous incidences). In hindsight, if both sides had more effectively communicated what appears to be at issue, Thoman should've been told to ahelp OOC rulebreaks before taking IC action in future (as is standard, griefers don't get banned and just keep at it later if they're killed IC without OOC attention) and not banned.

san7890 (everything that follows is solely from san7890):

This entire situation is murkied by the fact that an active exploit was being tested on production servers, and I see that singular action as being something that totally confounds and contextualizes the entire situation. As far as the quality of the administrative decision made to test the exploit, I see that as a mis-step in relation to Admin Conduct:

Please be careful if you choose to ‘test’ something you have little idea about. If someone asks something like “How much damage does a stunbaton do”, that can be checked easily, but more outlandish questions, like pertaining to var editing, should be investigated on your own local server and not the thunderdome, as you risk crashing the server.

Scriptis asserts to have had some knowledge as to what they were testing, but I believe that this aspect of Admin Conduct was not heeded properly. Although this had very little bearing on the actual ticket process (which only had a passing remark to the Igniter assembly), it is important to heed this bullet point. This isn't a digression, but it ties into my following point:

Thoman asserts that there is no way that they could have known that something was going on between Hoolny and Scriptis.

not really fair for you to assume that because you cleared exploit usage privately with Seth, that other players should be expected to know this and not lynch over it?

This is true. Even though one can claim Thoman trying to reframe the entire situation because they stumbled on "the perfect excuse" for their actions... the fact that they were able to create this excuse in the first place shows that something has went horribly wrong due to the lack of communication in testing this exploit on a production server (!!!). Thoman lacked information to know anything about what was going on beyond seeing a player screw around and destroy equipment (making them valid under Rule One, Precedent Four), and they acted appropriately in hindsight.