In this thread we come up with ways to end racism

[dirk_mcblade]

I can't think of a better way to get back at a racist from something like two years ago than to break forum rules.

[NoxVS]

I really miss the period of Manuel where someone would say a slur just to get murdered and chucked out an airlock for it

Genuinely based

[dirk_mcblade]

I really miss the period of Manuel where someone would say a slur just to get murdered and chucked out an airlock for it

Genuinely based

That's pretty good but it'd be better if you somehow come up with a way to get yourself punished by doing so also.

[EmpressMaia]

MSO has terrible takes about what is and isn't racism

[Chadley]

Maia is correct.

[MrStonedOne]

MSO has terrible takes about what is and isn't racism

Sorry your ability to be racist towards white people was gimped by my egalitarianism, but that doesn't make it a terrible take.

[Omega_DarkPotato]

can we have "just banning the racist" added to the poll

[Farquaar]

MSO has terrible takes about what is and isn't racism

Sorry your ability to be racist towards white people was gimped by my egalitarianism, but that doesn't make it a terrible take.

Based

[Armhulen]

MSO has terrible takes about what is and isn't racism

Guess I should blog about how that thread resolved because I'm sad it turned out ugly. Primarily I take issue with

Making people spam the chat with nigger is not racist.

Regardless of whether doing it is considered racist or not it makes our community an unwelcome place to be in, and it's going to make good people who contribute a lot to the community leave. You can say you're completely not racist in allowing it but regardless if our servers are full of people walking around going "nigger. faggot. chink. cracker." I, and others would rather just close the window and play Bloons Tower Defense 6. Someone forces my character to slur? I'd rather just close the window and play Rain World. Without any purpose for saying the word I can only assume the intent is to make others uncomfortable.

"Getting offended" is not a free for all, the offensive has to have a logical backing behind it before anybody is obligated to give a fuck.

Personally? I'm not offended, i've stuck around some stinky places of the internet and I'll continue to do so because that's just my origin point with the internet, I've grown accustomed to it. But all that said, if the server is an environment where I feel uncomfortable, whether I have logical backing behind it or not, I'm just going to close the window and play Pizza Tower. And that goes for a lot of community members.

Somebody not having the same standards around sensitivity as you is not racist.

Suppose my whole point is that we lost and continue to lose a lot of future potential people protecting something that isn't important to the game. We lose so little by not allowing slur spam talking purely from a "we host a game, we code the game, we have a community about it" standpoint, and we gain a wealth of people who will start or continue to play the game, write code, design maps, create sprite art, show our game to new audiences, etc. I guess I wish I cared more about what we are fighting for here with the current writeup of rule 11. I would if the game depended on it but other servers show it clearly doesn't.

That's my view on it. I am offended by real racism directed towards me or others with, as MSO says, logical backing behind it. But random usage and spam can be used by racists under the veneer of having no intent behind it to make the people they target uncomfortable until they quit, and I'd hate to side on the side of the people "innocently" using the words until someone "moves on" from the community. You feel me? All I suggest is that we keep the scope of slurs to at least some level of purpose beyond saying it to say it. Regardless, I'm going to enforce the rule how MSO wants it, but I'll always advocate for moving past the weird half measure situation we have now that not a whole lot of people are happy with. tg's always changing and improving but it takes time.

[Armhulen]

tl;dr: the monster train discord is a community based around a game, they're not trying to tackle complex modern sociopolitical issues people can quickly be made sour about as it is sprinkled throughout all of our daily lives and they're still doing just fine

[Chadley]

I think arm sums it up pretty well. There isn't much of a logical backing behind disliking an intentionless slur, but it clearly upsets a portion of the community and makes them uncomfortable.

I believe the majority of the anger and vitriol spewed on the original thread came from members having their emotions invalidated by the ones defending the use of the intentionless slurs. The emotions of the player base don't have to be catered to, and can be responded to with "go somewhere else" or "move on", but it seems like a really awkward hill to die on when it seems like the cases where people are using slurs, it's explicitly to grief and get banned anyway.

[TheRex9001]

I really agree with arm, regardless of whether or not its racist. It makes our community feel very unfriendly

[MrStonedOne]

Suppose my whole point is that we lost and continue to lose a lot of future potential people protecting something that isn't important to the game.

Arguing against treating or calling something racist != arguing for keeping it in the game. They did it to be a dick, we can still say that.

Stop assuming intent arm, you fucking know better.

[Chadley]

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting but it seems superfluous to dig heels in about this. If your issue with the discussion is that we're misappropriating griefing to racism, that should be said.

As a lowbrow looking in, it seems like this whole argument could be quelled with "I don't think intentionless slurs are racist, but I don't think they're acceptable either".

[MrStonedOne]

People don't like the idea of not using rule 11 to punish something like that because they want to turn it into a incurable character flaw with serious accusations like "racism" or "racist" because somebody has a different view on the line of sensitivity then them and I'm not required to fucking stand for it.

Call a spade a spade, don't start bringing in shovels and post holers.

[MrStonedOne]

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting but it seems superfluous to dig heels in about this. If your issue with the discussion is that we're misappropriating griefing to racism, that should be said.

As a lowbrow looking in, it seems like this whole argument could be quelled with "I don't think intentionless slurs are racist, but I don't think they're acceptable either".

Because I've gotten fucking tired of people who try to disingenuously link calling out bad arguments and bad logic with being for a thing that I no longer want to fucking have to preempt their stupidity with preambles.

[Armhulen]

Suppose my whole point is that we lost and continue to lose a lot of future potential people protecting something that isn't important to the game.

Arguing against treating or calling something racist != arguing for keeping it in the game. They did it to be a dick, we can still say that.

Stop assuming intent arm, you fucking know better.

I know you're not, of course we all agree that guy had to go. It's more of an angle that rule 11 is protecting something that gets people really sour and argumentative and wanting to leave when the majority of what it protects is banning a guy for spamming "nigger" because he's a dick instead of him being racist. I totally get what you mean by the action easily falling into edgy internet behavior instead of targeted hatred, but I'd rather rule 11 just protected meaningful discussions we might have on the forums in good faith and the rest... eh, it's for other places, y'know?

[Armhulen]

Maybe I can draw something to show what I mean about rule 11, hold on

[Chadley]

Art time!!

[ekaterina]

This thread has further convinced me MSO is the only thing stopping tgstation from turning into fulp.
By MSO's grace, tgstation stands strong even after all this time in operation.

[Armhulen]

[Armhulen]

Reminder: I'm open about my thoughts on where we SHOULD be, but I'll always enforce where we are. Letting your own personal opinions inject into the duties and expectations you've been given makes you an unreliable jerk, even if the cause is "good"

[TheRex9001]

good graph

[MrStonedOne]

But it doesn't, like, look at the last thread.

People got banned for arguing that one should treat words differently depending on the perceived race of the person who said it.

People got banned for arguing for the assumption that one has privilege based on their skin color.

Because those are both banned by rule 11.

It was never about protecting "meaningful" discussions and was 100% about removing expressions that revolve around treating people differently because of their skin color or race or other immutable defined at birth characteristics because I don't fucking like that shit.



There are two approaches to being against bigotry:

Sympathy: "aww, the poor wittle <blacks|womans|trans|embys|mexicans|asians|etc>, its sooooo sad they are discriminated against because of immutable attributes defined at birth they had no control over"

Empathy: "I would not like being discriminated against because of immutable attributes defined at birth I had no control over, thus it would be a shit thing to do to other people."

Nearly everybody in this thread and the other thread is in the first camp. I'm in the second camp.

When you are in the second camp, you look at your own experiences more because they drive your entire reason for being against it.

For instance: I can stand existing in a world that offers me no protections for hearing mean words about my demographics, so I presume other demographic can as well.

And when you are in the second camp as a majority, you have a even stronger distaste for our societies tolerance of bigotry against majorities.

[Armhulen]

It's less so about sympathy for me and more about the effect allowing the yellow group of slurs has, for what we get out of it. With or without casual or random slur use we will still be a community that hosts, codes, sprites, discusses a game, but we'll be a community more people can join. There's spheres in my life unrelated to tg where I'm quite the political andy but when it comes to /tg/ I just want it to be the best. I want it to grow the fastest, I want it to be unkillable, where any one of us could drop dead and /tg/ itself will stay alive. And for it to absolutely crush other servers and become this immortal being yeah it does have to be a wider net that more people can be happy playing in.

I wouldn't lie, a big reason why I chose this place over others is because of how strong it is ALREADY. We do have the best host, we have the highest quality admins, we have high player counts, I love it.

[MrStonedOne]

Actually i lied: there is a 3rd one: The social enforcer bully: "I want to make my self feel better by looking and talking down to people who don't draw the same lines in the sand as myself."

Think cartman post pc principal (or goofball now). They don't actually care about ending ISMs, they just see it as a socially acceptable way to be a bully. I hate these people.

[Armhulen]

And you might think I'm buttering you up with that host mention like a big piece'a bread but you really are the best Host I know in the ss13 sphere when it comes to sysadmin skills

[Boot]

It's less so about sympathy for me and more about the effect allowing the yellow group of slurs has, for what we get out of it. With or without casual or random slur use we will still be a community that hosts, codes, sprites, discusses a game, but we'll be a community more people can join. There's spheres in my life unrelated to tg where I'm quite the political andy but when it comes to /tg/ I just want it to be the best. I want it to grow the fastest, I want it to be unkillable, where any one of us could drop dead and /tg/ itself will stay alive. And for it to absolutely crush other servers and become this immortal being yeah it does have to be a wider net that more people can be happy playing in.

I wouldn't lie, a big reason why I chose this place over others is because of how strong it is ALREADY. We do have the best host, we have the highest quality admins, we have high player counts, I love it.

I honestly feel ya on this. I would be lying if I said that I didn't feel the same way about certain irl topics creeping their way into the ss13 space. The idea that we can just have a fun space to decompress, kill some clowns and slip some secoffs free of the bullshit outside is an idea worth striving for. A big issue that I have is that I can count the number of times I saw nigger in game with both hands and like two of those are from me. So when I see abunch of people talking about something that I don't really see too often as this big deal that we need to do something new. Suddenly the IC filter was changed to a broad word filter which doesn't just cover somethings but anything the admin team wants. Out of nowhere I'm seeing words I've never even seen in game appearing on that filter. I have never seen Shemale or Tranny or Coon said in game before they were gonna be filtered out. So here I am, doing everything I can, seeing these crazy broad sweeping solutions to problems that I don't even see.

[iwishforducks]

I have never seen Shemale or Tranny or Coon said in game before they were gonna be filtered out. So here I am, doing everything I can, seeing these crazy broad sweeping solutions to problems that I don't even see.

i played a match of tf2 last night and people were saying “kill all trannys" in chat and were pretty much uncontested. i’ve seen this kind of thing in games EXTREMELY often. also i have 100% seen tranny be used in OOC/IC (one of the two, cant remember) on ss13 before. i don't know what you're on about

[ekaterina]

i played a match of tf2 last night and people were saying “kill all trannys" in chat and were pretty much uncontested.

Last I checked we were on tgstation13.org, not teamfortress.com. This is irrelevant.

[Armhulen]

It's definitely a server dependent thing, if you're on Manny it's an "almost never" and it gets more common from there

[Boot]

I have never seen Shemale or Tranny or Coon said in game before they were gonna be filtered out. So here I am, doing everything I can, seeing these crazy broad sweeping solutions to problems that I don't even see.

i played a match of tf2 last night and people were saying “kill all trannys" in chat and were pretty much uncontested. i’ve seen this kind of thing in games EXTREMELY often. also i have 100% seen tranny be used in OOC/IC (one of the two, cant remember) on ss13 before. i don't know what you're on about

1. We shouldn't be changing ss13 because of what happens in tf2.
2. If you can't even remember if you saw it IC or OOC that kinda proves my point that it was uncommon in ss13 yeah?

[Omega_DarkPotato]

For instance: I can stand existing in a world that offers me no protections for hearing mean words about my demographics, so I presume other demographic can as well.

I'm sure you can stand existing in a world like that (it's the world that we live in)
but would you like to live in a world with slightly more protections against "mean words about my demographics"?

You've got the opportunity here to reduce the overall amount of mean words towards everyone, and in cases where you don't gain anything tangible out of em (I don't think that spamming a slur really provides anything other than spam, for example) I think it'd be reasonable to take it
whether that slur is against white people, men, black people, women, asian people, nonbinaries, jews, christians, hindus, etc it doesn't matter
you still have the opportunity to decrease its use and push back against them being used for no benefit other than to say them - even if you can stand their existence or use. You're host, and this is your server :P

As a second bit of argument, I would ask you to empathize with those who can't stand hearing mean words about their demographics as much - I'm not asking you to protect exclusively their demographics, but to just shift the line forward a bit where it's acceptable to boot usage of mean words where they provide nothing to an argument.

Kick out bigoted language against men or white people too if you think it's on the same level of bigotry as any slurs against (x demographic), and I don't think people are going to fall down crying that they can't call white people "mayo monkey" anymore

well ok SOME people might but i choose to ignore their existence

[TheRex9001]

Honestly I cant come up with a single reason to say the n word in IC chat. I think its fine to allow discussion around the word but bringing politics to a fun little videogame is not cool, double so IC which is necessary for the round

[ekaterina]

To all the people suggesting we ban slurs regardless of intent, who gets to decide what is a slur? Some are obvious, such as "nigger", "faggot", et cetera, but what of words like "tranny" or even "gay"?

[Boot]

Honestly I cant come up with a single reason to say the n word in IC chat. I think its fine to allow discussion around the word but bringing politics to a fun little videogame is not cool, double so IC which is necessary for the round

what if security gives you a 10 minute timer for shoving them in the halls?

[TheRex9001]

To all the people suggesting we ban slurs regardless of intent, who gets to decide what is a slur? Some are obvious, such as "nigger", "faggot", et cetera, but what of words like "tranny" or even "gay"?

Simple, the obvious ones are fully banned and the not obvious ones you check the intent

[iwishforducks]

i played a match of tf2 last night and people were saying “kill all trannys" in chat and were pretty much uncontested.

Last I checked we were on tgstation13.org, not teamfortress.com. This is irrelevant.

these hard filters are about tackling social issues, not tgstation issues. social issues will always be relevant as long as there's two people in a room and they do so much as look at each other, and for a game that's majority about roleplaying and talking to each other they could be no more relevant. if we want to imagine a tgstation where there is no human connection then we might as well all just disconnect from our computers because that's the only way

[mrmelbert]

This forum has gone 0 days without a slur discussion

[TheRex9001]

Honestly I cant come up with a single reason to say the n word in IC chat. I think its fine to allow discussion around the word but bringing politics to a fun little videogame is not cool, double so IC which is necessary for the round

what if security gives you a 10 minute timer for shoving them in the halls?

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

[Boot]

i played a match of tf2 last night and people were saying “kill all trannys" in chat and were pretty much uncontested.

Last I checked we were on tgstation13.org, not teamfortress.com. This is irrelevant.

these hard filters are about tackling social issues, not tgstation issues. social issues will always be relevant as long as there's two people in a room and they do so much as look at each other, and for a game that's majority about roleplaying and talking to each other they could be no more relevant. if we want to imagine a tgstation where there is no human connection then we might as well all just disconnect from our computers because that's the only way

This is the IRL bullshit creeping its way in I was talking about btw. "oh no we need to worry about the social issues in our 2d atmos spacesim" No we fucking don't.

[Armhulen]

slurs aren't a part of ss13 and if you want ss13 to stay the nonpolitical thing it is then removing all but the most acceptable uses (see my chart nerd emoji) will keep it that way.

Take a look at the two related rules for the Vampire Survivors community:

1) Treat everyone with respect. Absolutely no harassment, witch hunting, sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia or hate speech of any kind will be tolerated in this server.
Please keep in mind your server profiles and pictures too!
4) Controversial topics such as religion or politics are not allowed.
Please be cautious introducing sensitive topics such as gender, race, sexuality etc... Don't post content which references illegal activity or restricted substances.

Trust me, they only care about shit like how to unlock characters via overly complicated set of call of duty easter egg instructions and how high of a curse level they can get before they're instantly turned into a read smear on the infinite library's carpet. Damn I should play that game some more

[Boot]

Honestly I cant come up with a single reason to say the n word in IC chat. I think its fine to allow discussion around the word but bringing politics to a fun little videogame is not cool, double so IC which is necessary for the round

what if security gives you a 10 minute timer for shoving them in the halls?

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

I think it is fair to insult a secoff if they brig you unfairly, harm baton or its a day that ends in y.

[iwishforducks]

i played a match of tf2 last night and people were saying “kill all trannys" in chat and were pretty much uncontested.

Last I checked we were on tgstation13.org, not teamfortress.com. This is irrelevant.

these hard filters are about tackling social issues, not tgstation issues. social issues will always be relevant as long as there's two people in a room and they do so much as look at each other, and for a game that's majority about roleplaying and talking to each other they could be no more relevant. if we want to imagine a tgstation where there is no human connection then we might as well all just disconnect from our computers because that's the only way

This is the IRL bullshit creeping its way in I was talking about btw. "oh no we need to worry about the social issues in our 2d atmos spacesim" No we fucking don't.

if you don't want IRL bullshit creeping its way in then go play with rocks outside in your yard

[Armhulen]

(not saying we should have these rules, just pointing out that these nerds really and truly only care about "getting the optimal build on galleo tower")

[TheRex9001]

Honestly I cant come up with a single reason to say the n word in IC chat. I think its fine to allow discussion around the word but bringing politics to a fun little videogame is not cool, double so IC which is necessary for the round

what if security gives you a 10 minute timer for shoving them in the halls?

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

I think it is fair to insult a secoff if they brig you unfairly, harm baton or its a day that ends in y.

So then your intent is to demean, in which case rule 11 should cover it.

[ekaterina]

To be clear you think its acceptable to call someone ”nigger” because you got brigged?

Yes.

So then your intent is to demean, in which case rule 11 should cover it.

His intent is to demean in general, not demean based on "actual or perceived race". Rule 11 thus does strictly allow it.

To all the people suggesting we ban slurs regardless of intent, who gets to decide what is a slur? Some are obvious, such as "nigger", "faggot", et cetera, but what of words like "tranny" or even "gay"?

Simple, the obvious ones are fully banned and the not obvious ones you check the intent

What's the point and who decides what the obvious ones are?
"Tranny", "cunt", and "retard", for example. Are these slurs? I say they aren't, but I'd bet you that you can find someone who would reply to this question with "obviously".

[iwishforducks]

embarrassing if this is the kind of company we allow

[Boot]

embarrassing if this is the kind of company we allow

My only failure was not being bad enough to gatekeep you out of this community.

[EmpressMaia]

embarrassing if this is the kind of company we allow

It really is. I regret opening this thread up to see the word vomit on display