Just remove ancient minor notes

[CPTANT]

Nobody cares you said "lol" 8 years ago IC so why is this information retained? Greying out isn't enough because it's still there and this feature isn't even implemented on like 3 out of 4 ways to view notes. None of this stuff matters after several years.
All this leads to is dumb appeals for minor notes because they are permanent. If you have to fish several years of greyed out notes to ban someone it isn't worth it in the first place. Just remove these notes after 1 or 2 years. You don't have to physically remove them, just make them inaccessible.

Things that actually matter should have the option to be retained.

[mazur907]

lol

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

If they aren't relevant any more because you stopped doing the behavior after being noted, why does it matter if you still have the note?

If you say "lol" in character again despite having 8 years of experience in the game and a note reminding you not to for the last 8 years on your profile, why is it no longer relevant?

[Vekter]

We keep those notes for record-keeping purposes (more important for more severe issues like rule 8/11 violations) but anything older than six months doesn't actually show up on your notes unless we click a button to explicitly show them to us. Admins don't take notes that old into account unless it's something really severe.

We've discussed this in the past, but most of the contention comes from the point of what happens if you get a note, stop playing for a while, then come back and start doing the same shit again.

[CPTANT]

We keep those notes for record-keeping purposes (more important for more severe issues like rule 8/11 violations) but anything older than six months doesn't actually show up on your notes unless we click a button to explicitly show them to us. Admins don't take notes that old into account unless it's something really severe.

We've discussed this in the past, but most of the contention comes from the point of what happens if you get a note, stop playing for a while, then come back and start doing the same shit again.

Like I said, retain actually severe notes. Nobody cares about someone doing minor things again a year later.

What is the point of "record keeping" minor notes? Like I said If you have to fish several years of greyed out notes to ban someone it isn't worth it in the first place

If they aren't relevant any more because you stopped doing the behavior after being noted, why does it matter if you still have the note?

Because it simply sucks to see those same dumb notes years later? And as the OP it wastes everyone's time with note appeals.

[Vekter]

We keep those notes for record-keeping purposes (more important for more severe issues like rule 8/11 violations) but anything older than six months doesn't actually show up on your notes unless we click a button to explicitly show them to us. Admins don't take notes that old into account unless it's something really severe.

We've discussed this in the past, but most of the contention comes from the point of what happens if you get a note, stop playing for a while, then come back and start doing the same shit again.

Like I said, retain actually severe notes. Nobody cares about someone doing minor things again a year later.

What is the point of "record keeping" minor notes? Like I said If you have to fish several years of greyed out notes to ban someone it isn't worth it in the first place

There isn't an efficient way to automate this process.

Because it simply sucks to see those same dumb notes years later? And as the OP it wastes everyone's time with note appeals.

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but we don't administrate solely based on the general feelings of players. I'm sorry it upsets you to see that you got a note eight years ago for something really minor. Notes past a certain point aren't relevant but we have no efficient way to automatically remove them that wouldn't also remove valid notes. The best I can tell you is that no admin is going to see you accidentally IC in OOC, see that you got a note six years ago for it, and go, "Well, you've done it twice now".

[NecromancerAnne]

Wear your scars, just like the rest of us.

[Justice12354]

Is it really worth it to go out of our ways to remove ancient notes that don't matter anymore? Sounds like extra work for nothing. Is the note biting you?

[Cheshify]

I actually have some feelings about this. I have a bunch of notes myself, and I still managed to improve, become admin, and later head admin; I just stopped doing what was getting me noted and played well and my notes never affected me. Notes are learning opportunities and references for yourself, up until you decide otherwise by repeating the behaviour. If they fade away, they're still reference for yourself but unless it's a situation of "One person does the same thing over and over for 3 years without getting banned for it somehow." An admin should not be using it as a reason to escalate increasing bans.

[CPTANT]

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but we don't administrate solely based on the general feelings of players. I'm sorry it upsets you to see that you got a note eight years ago for something really minor. Notes past a certain point aren't relevant but we have no efficient way to automatically remove them that wouldn't also remove valid notes. The best I can tell you is that no admin is going to see you accidentally IC in OOC, see that you got a note six years ago for it, and go, "Well, you've done it twice now".

Of course you have, just put a boolean on the ones that need to actually be retained.

And making sure players have a good time is the entire point of the game.

Is it really worth it to go out of our ways to remove ancient notes that don't matter anymore? Sounds like extra work for nothing. Is the note biting you?

Yes I find the permanent nature of notes jarring. And no this isn't about a specific note, it was an example. And once again, having these notes permanent is more work because it incentives people to appeal them.

[CPTANT]

Notes are learning opportunities and references for yourself,

Ridiculously patronizing.

/viewtopic.php?p=657524#p657524]"One person does the same thing over and over for 3 years without getting banned for it somehow."[/url] An admin should not be using it as a reason to escalate increasing bans.

He did this 7 times in a year, that's enough to ban him without having old notes in the first place. And Once again, it's fine to retain stuff such as actual bans.

[Justice12354]

Yes I find the permanent nature of notes jarring. And no this isn't about a specific note, it was an example. And once again, having these notes permanent is more work because it incentives people to appeal them.

What do you find jarring in the mere existence of old notes? I'm truly trying to understand your side because it feels like a nothing burger to me while you went out of your way to make this thread, so there must be something more to it. For instance, I have an old note over breaking the Clown Car as an ASIMOV Cyborg and it's just whatever. The note doesn't matter anymore, but I don't feel annoyed by it being there, I simply don't care about it

[Vekter]

Yes I find the permanent nature of notes jarring. And no this isn't about a specific note, it was an example. And once again, having these notes permanent is more work because it incentives people to appeal them.

I'm sorry if you 'find it jarring', but the system exists the way it does for a reason and would take significant effort to change - effort that I don't feel is worth it just to assuage the concerns of a handful of people who feel bad that they made a mistake five years ago. I apologize if I sound weary about the matter, but it's been discussed to death behind doors time and time again. It's not something I'm interested in arguing about once more.

E: I looked at your notes, if your concern is over the OOC in IC note you have from 2017, just appeal it and I'll remove it - the admin who placed it isn't even here anymore. I don't care to do it.

[Cheshify]

Notes are learning opportunities and references for yourself,

Ridiculously patronizing.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's what you can use them for as a player, it's what I and many others have done. Maybe instead of entirely dismissing the point you can try to put it into action for yourself and see an improvement?

[CPTANT]

Notes are learning opportunities and references for yourself,

Ridiculously patronizing.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's what you can use them for as a player, it's what I and many others have done. Maybe instead of entirely dismissing the point you can try to put it into action for yourself and see an improvement?

You really think this serves a point after up to 8 years for the most minor of things? That's what makes it patronizing, not everything needs a permanent reminder.

[Vekter]

So we need to address the ways that we could implement what you're asking for. I see two different methods:

1) Have admins, by request, remove notes that are older than a specific time frame depending on the offense and its severity. We already have this, it's called "note appeals".
2) Have a method for notes to be removed after a certain period of time, either by letting admins opt in to it by selecting an option when they make a note or by automatically pruning notes of a certain severity after a specific amount of time. We already kind of have this in expiring notes, but we didn't have it for notes in the past, so it's not an option for anything that already exists. Any change to this specific system is a code issue and, as such, isn't a topic for this forum.

So either way, the issue isn't really relevant for policy discussion. We already have multiple admins that will place expiring notes for things like IC in OOC or minor infractions (myself included) and headmins have been encouraging this since last term. I don't know what else you want aside from something like "purge all notes older than six months", which 1) isn't happening and 2) is a code issue.

[dendydoom]

it's been explained to me before (by oranges i think i dont remember) that it's not just a bandaid solution to be able to alter the database like that. having functionality that automatically deletes entries from a database like that also needs checks and balances and oversight from already overworked people who likely don't care enough to address it.

functionally notes are fine and the egregious ones get put on blast in appeal. the internal requirements for how to write a note is actually quite strict as well. note standards are also something that come up in bus a lot, so admins that slip up and write goofy ones more often than not get called out on it.

so, i guess in short: the system works as it is and the resources to get it to where you want probably don't exist

[CPTANT]

it's been explained to me before (by oranges i think i dont remember) that it's not just a bandaid solution to be able to alter the database like that. having functionality that automatically deletes entries from a database like that also needs checks and balances and oversight from already overworked people who likely don't care enough to address it.

This is conflating desirability with implementation. There are 100% ways to implement this and it really isn't THAT hard to move entries from one table to an archive table or to set an expired boolean, outright deleting is an incredibly naive approach.

functionally notes are fine and the egregious ones get put on blast in appeal. the internal requirements for how to write a note is actually quite strict as well.

Were they 8 years ago?

So either way, the issue isn't really relevant for policy discussion.

No code change on this is ever going to happen without administrative consent, therefore it 100% belongs here.

1) Have admins, by request, remove notes that are older than a specific time frame depending on the offense and its severity. We already have this, it's called "note appeals".

There is currently no codification for this being a thing. Being old is currently not listed as a reason for appealing a note. If you write up rules for under which circumstances old notes are eligible for removal by virtue of being old, fine.

[Vekter]

functionally notes are fine and the egregious ones get put on blast in appeal. the internal requirements for how to write a note is actually quite strict as well.

Were they 8 years ago?

Yes.

So either way, the issue isn't really relevant for policy discussion.

No code change on this is ever going to happen without administrative consent, therefore it 100% belongs here.

Incorrect. The administration can make requests of coders but it's up to them as to whether or not the change is made. Historically, we have not permitted code-related solutions be requested in this forum.

1) Have admins, by request, remove notes that are older than a specific time frame depending on the offense and its severity. We already have this, it's called "note appeals".

There is currently no codification for this being a thing. Being old is currently not listed as a reason for appealing a note. If you write up rules for under which circumstances old notes are eligible for removal by virtue of being old, fine.

There doesn't need to be an explicit thing that says "if a note is old enough you get it removed for free". Just ask. We don't need to codify literally everything in the rules.

Honestly, your entire argument boils down to "I don't want notes to be permanent because it hurts my feelings knowing that I have a note". Can you give me an actual, logical reason why we should remove notes after a specific period of time that doesn't have anything to do with your personal feelings about having a note?

[Fatal]

A lot of admins have old notes as well, it's not worth spending any time on honestly because no admin is ever going to bring up such an old note, and nobody cares enough to put any time into removing them all

[CPTANT]

There doesn't need to be an explicit thing that says "if a note is old enough you get it removed for free". Just ask. We don't need to codify literally everything in the rules.

How are people supposed to know this then?

Honestly, your entire argument boils down to "I don't want notes to be permanent because it hurts my feelings knowing that I have a note". Can you give me an actual, logical reason why we should remove notes after a specific period of time that doesn't have anything to do with your personal feelings about having a note?

Like I said before keeping them just wastes everyone's time by incentivising people to appeal them. And yes it does feel more shitty to get a bad note when you know it is going to be permanent and I don't see why that wouldn't be a valid reason.

The question is why you want to keep them so badly when you say yourself they won't have impact. Even criminal records expire.

[Jacquerel]

I have one note about bad behaviour from 2013 and I wouldn't want it removed because whenever I look at it I think it's very funny
If it was removed automatically then it would negatively impact me

[Vekter]

The question is why you want to keep them so badly when you say yourself they won't have impact. Even criminal records expire.

Because we can either keep them as record for if you continue to do the same thing multiple times and ignore the older notes (how we handle it now) or we can ask the coders to bend over backwards rewriting our note system for very little significant gain. The issue is that what you're suggesting is going to cause a lot of work for a lot of people for something really minor that boils down to "I don't want to keep them because they make me feel bad".

If they're so pointless, why do you care so much about having them removed?

[CPTANT]

The question is why you want to keep them so badly when you say yourself they won't have impact. Even criminal records expire.

Because we can either keep them as record for if you continue to do the same thing multiple times and ignore the older notes (how we handle it now) or we can ask the coders to bend over backwards rewriting our note system for very little significant gain.

If they're so pointless, why do you care so much about having them removed?

Because permanent punishment (or warnings if you are of the they aren't punishment school) for the most minor of things is dumb?

And once again: Keeping them just wastes everyone's time by incentivising people to appeal them.

[Vekter]

Because permanent punishment (or warnings if you are of the they aren't punishment school) for the most minor of things is dumb?

And once again: Keeping them just wastes everyone's time by incentivising people to appeal them.

Notes are not a punishment unless you repeat the same behavior multiple times within a short period. It's not "permanent punishment" because, again, there are no admins that will see a note from a year ago for something like IC in OOC and ban you harder for it.

[CPTANT]

Notes are not a punishment unless you repeat the same behavior multiple times within a short period. It's not "permanent punishment" because, again, there are no admins that will see a note from a year ago for something like IC in OOC and ban you harder for it.

(or warnings if you are of the they aren't punishment school)

Again, then there is no point in keeping them.

[Jacquerel]

there's a point in keeping them because I want to keep mine
you don't, but satisfying you takes more work than satisfying me and has exactly as much benefit

[Vekter]

Notes are not a punishment unless you repeat the same behavior multiple times within a short period. It's not "permanent punishment" because, again, there are no admins that will see a note from a year ago for something like IC in OOC and ban you harder for it.

(or warnings if you are of the they aren't punishment school)

Again, then there is no point in keeping them.

Okay, whatever. You're not automatically right just because you keep repeating yourself over and over again.

[sinfulbliss]

anything older than six months doesn't actually show up on your notes unless we click a button to explicitly show them to us. Admins don't take notes that old into account unless it's something really severe.

This is just straight up untrue. Not only do we regularly see admins use 6 month, 8 month, and sometimes even year+ old notes in justifying their relatively minor bans, we have even seen admins use expired notes in appeals.
viewtopic.php?p=706504#p706504

This was a mistake and was rectified, so no shade at all to TBM. But if a headmin can make this mistake, I shudder to think about what trialmins could fuck up with a nice juicy note history. You can say “notes over 6 months fade” all you want, but at the end of the day when the admin clicks the “show more” button (which I’m sure they often do), they will formulate an opinion based off of what they read. I highly doubt they will meticulously disregard the unrelated notes — they will make a judgment based on your entire history.

I’m going to draw a parallel to the court system again because it’s fun. The defense will often attempt to get their client’s prior criminal history suppressed, on the grounds that it will influence the jury in deciding the issue. When they should be focusing on matters of fact and law, they’ll instead be thinking “wow that guy’s a fuckhead, he deserves to be whacked.”

tl;dr: Notes are on your account, so they are going to be used against you if the admin thinks it supports their ban — either explicitly, or subconsciously.

[Vekter]

anything older than six months doesn't actually show up on your notes unless we click a button to explicitly show them to us. Admins don't take notes that old into account unless it's something really severe.

This is just straight up untrue. Not only do we regularly see admins use 6 month, 8 month, and sometimes even year+ old notes in justifying their relatively minor bans, we have even seen admins use expired notes in appeals.

I'm in the process of working with the person who makes our Discord tooling for checking notes to add support for expiring notes, so this shouldn't be a concern in the future.

I'd love to see the specific instance you're referring to as far as admins using notes older than six months for minor bans. QA bans don't count for obvious reasons.

[TheBibleMelts]

notes are pretty cool.

[dragomagol]

No admin is going to go and delete every old note, it's just too much work. If anything this mass deletion is a code issue. Plus there are exceptions where we would ALWAYS want old notes, such as moving accounts, people who share computers, etc.
I'm more inclined to say using out-of-date notes is an admin issue. If an admin is using a note that is unreasonably old, that should be corrected. But of course situations are different all over the place.

[Fikou]

Not happening. It's not reasonable for us (or any headmin term) to comb through every note (we have around 20 a day) to rule how severe they are (note severity did not even exist before... 2020?), deleting a lot of admin history over the years just because you don't like that a note that won't be accounted for by admins exists.
If you want to modify the note viewing tools to hide old notes you are free to do so.
Fikou - Wagoo wagoo
Cheshify - Hard disagree, yes
TBM - Close it