Add basic job expectations to LRP ruleset

[Fatal]

Alright, let me break it down for you, because that title might have some people wondering what the hell I'm talking about

Basically, over the years, I personally feel the LRP servers are slowly but surely drifting towards NRP. I'm sure some people who've been around as long as I have, probably feel a similar way

What I'm proposing, is to expand rule 5:

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

By including all jobs in that rule

Looking something like:

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role, require a minimum amount of effort to do their job and/ or assist their team directly or indirectly to accomplish their goals. Also players in any role should ensure their department provides a basic level of service to the rest of the station, unless there is a legitimate in-character reason to refuse this


I don't mind so much if that wording gets played with a little, but I think that sets the bar for what I'm trying to accomplish here. We get multiple adminhelps from people complaining that engineering didn't setup the engine before fucking off to space, or that medical staff aren't healing people. And you know what, the rules, besides rule 1, don't have anything against that

I'm not trying to take away peoples freedoms with such a rule, all I want is that people who sign up for a job, make a BASIC effort to ensure their department is running, especially when it's an important one to the round (I'm mostly looking at engineering / medbay / mining here) but honestly I think it should just cover all jobs because, in my opinion, the game plays better when people actually play their job

The obvious exceptions are assistant and mime / clown and such, nobody cares if they don't help anyone because honestly, that IS their basic expectation

And I'm not trying to take away any conflict with this one, if there's a legitimate in-character reason to refuse services or to do your job, that's part of the game. What I don't like seeing as people who take job equipment (paramedics I'm looking at you here with your syringe guns) and fucking off with it and never helping anyone

[kieth4]

I'm not really a fan of forcing people to do shit. I think the fun of this game is the freedom. If I sign up as an engi and I only want to repair holes and build shit because I don't know the sm? I should be allowed to. I still haven't learnt how to set up the sm...

Miners should also be free to do whatever tf they want otherwise the moment you see a miner on station you know they're an antag.

The fun of this game comes from people being different, I have fond memories of no power and having to cut cargo off the grid and use generators and shit.

What do you want sci to do? Be forced to scan toilets???

What about security's freedom to not instantly vaporise bad guys to give the round SOME flavour?

[Fatal]

You misunderstand, I'm not forcing people to do anything beyond ensure their department is functional

Your example, if you don't know the SM. If you ask that another engineer does and they take responsibility for it, then as far as I'm concerned, you've fulfilled your obligation

Again, miners, as long as someone is supplying the department with materials, obligation fulfilled


I'm not trying to make this MRP lite by forcing people to play a certain way, I'm just ensuring that the people (as rare as they are) who simply take a job for it's equipment and to fuck off and leave departments without making any effort to do the job they sign up can be shown part of the rules that says "hey, please don't be that guy"

[kieth4]

You misunderstand, I'm not forcing people to do anything beyond ensure their department is functional

Your example, if you don't know the SM. If you ask that another engineer does and they take responsibility for it, then as far as I'm concerned, you've fulfilled your obligation

Again, miners, as long as someone is supplying the department with materials, obligation fulfilled


I'm not trying to make this MRP lite by forcing people to play a certain way, I'm just ensuring that the people (as rare as they are) who simply take a job for it's equipment and to fuck off and leave departments without making any effort to do the job they sign up can be shown part of the rules that says "hey, please don't be that guy"

But engineering isn't only the SM, it had a variety of jobs under the umbrella which are not SM or power.

Miners should feel free to fight fauna or do w/e they want to do too really. After the first dump many fuck off and that's fine imo.

Im not a fan of forcing people to play a certain way really and like a job is an umbrella of activities. What we're saying is only this is important everything else can get FLARPED which kinda kills the sandbox conceptually imo

[Jacquerel]

As far as I can tell Kieth you have yet to list an example which isnt someone doing some minimum to support their department.
You yourself are even condemning the idea of going off to just fight fauna without dumping any minerals at all, which is what this rule is targetting.

If you are in fact doing something covered by an "umbrella of activities" which defines your job you are doing your job

[Vekter]

Ah, this is a tricky one. On one hand, I do believe that we should be able to note people for being intentionally negligent of absolutely basic duties. If there's four engineers and none of them have started the engine, there's a goddamn problem.

On the other, I'm loath to support anything that mandates competency. I don't like the idea of having to tell players "You must do this at an absolute basic level or you get in trouble" if they're not playing command roles. I think we can find a way to work this out so it works for everyone, it's just going to take some workshopping.

[Fatal]

Yeah, I think there's some leniency here, as I say, I'm open to changes, but the core is basically the frustration of people abandoning their job, on a regular basis, I think if you want to do some gimmick, that's fine, but at least make sure your department isn't going to be fucked over by it (I think the main adminhelps we get about this are from engineering staff doing it and they are the main culprits)

As for competency, that's a different story, I think the intent is what matters rather than the outcome (unless it's clearly just intentional incompetence at the cost of other players rounds)

[sinfulbliss]

Very strongly disagree with this. I don’t see at all how people doing their jobs makes the server less “NRP,” especially when most job content doesn’t involve roleplay.

The beauty of the LRP servers, of which TG has the only populated ones in all of SS13 (compared to the dozens of MRP and HRP servers), is the fact players have freedom to play the game how they want. This proposal mandates them to play the game in a certain way, and that goes against the fundamental point of LRP.

An engineer should be able to spend his round building some conveyer belt autism in the main hallway with friends. Atmos should be able to spend the entire round making a cool proto-nitrate powered lightshow in medbay and not fix any of the station air. Miners should be able to fuck off and fight fauna if they like — they’ll get a few mats out of necessity to buy luxpens and such regardless.

[iwishforducks]

please no

i will crunch up miners who aren’t returning with mats into a wall-e cube but that doesn’t mean i think it should be OOCly enforced. services being neglected makes for interesting IC interactions. it’s a sandbox. it makes sense for head roles as is, because the responsibility is voluntary.

[kieth4]

As far as I can tell Kieth you have yet to list an example which isnt someone doing some minimum to support their department.

Alright, If signing up as an engi ignoring power and going to build a bar in maint would be allowed I would probably be okish with the proposed rule- this usually isn't the case with these kinds of conversations and I've seen a lot of them. People expect very certain tasks done from certain jobs- in this case, it's engi (I assume he wants power) medbay (I assume he wants to be revived) and mining (I assume he wants mats.) If a medic went to for example just makes chems for the whole round and not revive anyone this rule seems intent to target that which I disagree with. I also disagree with the premise in general

You yourself are even condemning the idea of going off to just fight fauna without dumping any minerals at all, which is what this rule is targetting.

I am not condemning this because I have done this before and will do so again.

If you are in fact doing something covered by an "umbrella of activities" which defines your job you are doing your job

Wut, the proposed change is this " Also players in any role should ensure their department provides a basic level of service to the rest of the station, unless there is a legitimate in-character reason to refuse this" which suggests that there will be certain actions required from the department as opposed to total freedom to do w/e even if related within

[Vekter]

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically play the game.

[iwishforducks]

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically play the game.

this is kinda a cheap shot but i kinda get what you’re saying? should just be more verbose honestly. do you think folks who NRP choose engineer to tide are saying no to this? or do you think people who focus entirely on their job foregoing RP/IC interactions want this? idk there’s two interpretations of this.

i used to be a huge jobbie but i found there’s a lot more fun to be had going around interacting with folks. i still provide “bare minimum services” i guess but i hardly interact with my “job content” persay.

i never want this to enter the realm of OOC admin enforcement. because i think the enforcement of this would be fucked. it’s already a tell tale sign that someone’s antagonist if they fuck off from their job roundstart. i think it’d be fucked if you could ahelp someone fucking off roundstart or like it becomes an undeniable meta that someone’s Bad.

now… if we want to write in the policy somewhere that security officers and members of the department can bully someone for not jobbing? that’d be fucking funny. that’s solid gold IC RP opportunities. hell old escalation policy even covered this, that you could start conflict over the refusal of services. that clause got removed recently, though, so I’d love for that to come back in some way

[dendydoom]

i'll be the first mrp chad to say i've always been against this sort of change. i will hold command/heads to higher standards, but ultimately i really enjoy the fact that you can play a character that's bad at their job and there is no one breathing down your neck on an OOC level to make sure you're being optimal in any capacity.

obviously this comes with the caveat that on mrp we have a rule where we can ask you to stop if you keep repeating "gimmicks" like being shit at your job to the point of a department being dysfunctional or abandoning your post to space explore or whatever. i think this is a much better solution personally. people still get to goof off but if it's all they do every round then we can very quickly address it when it becomes detrimental to the rest of the players repeatedly.

as always to me it's the "good faith" part that stands out. if people are choosing jobs in order to maliciously use their access/tools to go against the spirit of the game then this is already worth addressing. but something about a "minimum standard" being applied to the lowly rank-and-file of a department has always rubbed me the wrong way. i don't like it, it feels too micromanagey and in a lot of ways it feels like it's taking too much agency from the player and giving us too much leeway to twist things into "you're shit at your job so now you're in trouble."

edit: i also really dread the idea of getting a "john goober is shit at his job" ahelp and not being able to hit the IC issue button because it's literally the definition of an IC issue. valid demotions for people being genuinely godawful at their job already have metaprotections to safeguard this sort of thing.

[sinfulbliss]

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically play the game.

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically administrate the game.

Furthermore I resent the implication… If I am playing engi the SM is getting setup properly. If I’m chemist there’s gonna be sali and oxa in med. But I’ll be damned if someone is going to force me to do that. It’s my own free choice and it should be everyone’s.

[kieth4]

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically play the game.

Don't think this is a particularly fair thing to say? Some people just like the freedom of lrp and want to keep it that way. I play heads and only hos for example so this change wouldn't rlly hit me but I don't want it because I think it's cringe

[Vekter]

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically play the game.

this is kinda a cheap shot but i kinda get what you’re saying? should just be more verbose honestly. do you think folks who NRP choose engineer to tide are saying no to this? or do you think people who focus entirely on their job foregoing RP/IC interactions want this? idk there’s two interpretations of this.

I think that a lot of the people who don't want this are significantly more concerned with being assistant and fucking around all game instead of picking a job and doing it or tend to consider the game more an "antags vs. crew" combat simulator.

I'm not claiming either of those interpretations are valid or invalid, but it's worth noting.

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically play the game.

I think it's worth paying attention to who does and doesn't want this compared to how they typically administrate the game.

Furthermore I resent the implication… If I am playing engi the SM is getting setup properly. If I’m chemist there’s gonna be sali and oxa in med. But I’ll be damned if someone is going to force me to do that. It’s my own free choice and it should be everyone’s.

Thank you for your input on the matter.

[TheBibleMelts]

i think if you take a job slot, you are deciding what flavor of role you're going to be adding to the shift, and should put some level of effort into maintaining the flavor of the role you chose. i hate the idea of people not being allowed to be bad at that role or not know it inside and out, but I do think it's good to at least do something related to the role you took - if for no other reason than not potentially blocking someone out who did want to actually work the job.

[sinfulbliss]

i think if you take a job slot, you are deciding what flavor of role you're going to be adding to the shift, and should put some level of effort into maintaining the flavor of the role you chose. i hate the idea of people not being allowed to be bad at that role or not know it inside and out, but I do think it's good to at least do something related to the role you took - if for no other reason than not potentially blocking someone out who did want to actually work the job.

If you make a policy that says "players should put a minimum of effort into their jobs," or leave it open-ended, admins will all hold different views of this and you end up with everyone enforcing their own opinion. Policies that create massive ranges in enforcement are bad policies IMO.

[TheBibleMelts]

i think if you take a job slot, you are deciding what flavor of role you're going to be adding to the shift, and should put some level of effort into maintaining the flavor of the role you chose. i hate the idea of people not being allowed to be bad at that role or not know it inside and out, but I do think it's good to at least do something related to the role you took - if for no other reason than not potentially blocking someone out who did want to actually work the job.

If you make a policy that says "players should put a minimum of effort into their jobs," or leave it open-ended, admins will all hold different views of this and you end up with everyone enforcing their own opinion. Policies that create massive ranges in enforcement are bad policies IMO.

that's why my ideal would be to enforce your round being flavored to the tune of the role you play, to stop the cases of a job slot being taken just to fuck off with a roundstart toolbelt, or picking paramedic for increased access with no intent to even glance at a crew monitor.

[sinfulbliss]

i think if you take a job slot, you are deciding what flavor of role you're going to be adding to the shift, and should put some level of effort into maintaining the flavor of the role you chose. i hate the idea of people not being allowed to be bad at that role or not know it inside and out, but I do think it's good to at least do something related to the role you took - if for no other reason than not potentially blocking someone out who did want to actually work the job.

If you make a policy that says "players should put a minimum of effort into their jobs," or leave it open-ended, admins will all hold different views of this and you end up with everyone enforcing their own opinion. Policies that create massive ranges in enforcement are bad policies IMO.

that's why my ideal would be to enforce your round being flavored to the tune of the role you play, to stop the cases of a job slot being taken just to fuck off with a roundstart toolbelt, or picking paramedic for increased access with no intent to even glance at a crew monitor.

I think players do this by default. The gear differences between the roles aren't really significant enough to make this an issue, ASIDE from head of staff roles which have extended access and roundstart batons. But heads of staff already have a policy like this for that exact reason.

I guess the question is, what are some hypothetical scenarios where a player is getting bwoinked for not "flavoring their rounds to the tune of their role" enough? The caveat being it can't just be blatant grief that would already have been bwoinked for without this policy.

[TheLoLSwat]

If a department isnt doing something that the station needs, they are usually handled via vigilante justice. Heads of staff get the same treatment and then probably a bwoink b/c rule 5. Why do we need additions/edits to policy for what is essentially an IC issue (unless it veers into rule 1 or 12 territory which is already covered by those rules)

[Vekter]

If a department isnt doing something that the station needs, they are usually handled via vigilante justice. Heads of staff get the same treatment and then probably a bwoink b/c rule 5. Why do we need additions/edits to policy for what is essentially an IC issue (unless it veers into rule 1 or 12 territory which is already covered by those rules)

I really don't like the idea that we're perfectly fine with so many issues being handled by murdering the shit out of whoever did it instead of letting admins handle it. "Vigilante justice" shouldn't be our solution to so many problems.

[sinfulbliss]

If a department isnt doing something that the station needs, they are usually handled via vigilante justice. Heads of staff get the same treatment and then probably a bwoink b/c rule 5. Why do we need additions/edits to policy for what is essentially an IC issue (unless it veers into rule 1 or 12 territory which is already covered by those rules)

I really don't like the idea that we're perfectly fine with so many issues being handled by murdering the shit out of whoever did it instead of letting admins handle it. "Vigilante justice" shouldn't be our solution to so many problems.

People generally prefer to play the game and enjoy themselves over getting into a 30 minute argument in a ticket malding at a guy that got them upset. One is unsustainable and just embitters you, the other keeps things lighthearted and in the game world.

[Shellton(Mario)]

Just let me play the game. Some days I want to do my job other days I want to run around say theres a spooky scary demon after me and pretend its pushing me into the tram underpass

PS: I generally don't like policies that police people's behaviors in less the behavior itself is damaging to the game. Which in this case its not damaging. I think people will just get frustrated over this.

[Farquaar]

If every non-antag is forced to do their job, then it'll be pretty easy to tell who the traitors are.

Right now, traitors have plausible deniability since they theoretically could be one of the several lazy parasites roaming the station at any given time.

[Pepper]

What I'm proposing, is to expand rule 5:

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role require a minimum amount of effort; generally considered to be not logging out at or near roundstart.

By including all jobs in that rule

Looking something like:

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role, require a minimum amount of effort to do their job and/ or assist their team directly or indirectly to accomplish their goals. Also players in any role should ensure their department provides a basic level of service to the rest of the station, unless there is a legitimate in-character reason to refuse this

The obvious exceptions are assistant and mime / clown and such, nobody cares if they don't help anyone because honestly, that IS their basic expectation

So it will just push everyone to play Assistant. I'm not going to bother playing a role if there's an increased chance I'll get backseat gamered by a jannie for "not doing my job" right.

[Vekter]

So it will just push everyone to play Assistant. I'm not going to bother playing a role if there's an increased chance I'll get backseat gamered by a jannie for "not doing my job" right.

Easy fix - remove assistant.

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who play the game just to be a silly little guy running around annoying people. The level of RP on /tg/ has plummeted over the years and I doubt we can get it back without rules like this.

E: For clarification, I'm talking about people going around getting into shoving matches or beating each other to a pulp because they find it fun, or people breaking a bunch of windows for no reason. The kind of player who says maybe five words a round. That's where my frustration is, not people who don't take the game seriously.

[sinfulbliss]

The level of RP on /tg/ has plummeted over the years and I doubt we can get it back without rules like this.

You don't restore the RP level of TG by forcing players to do their jobs.

[Vekter]

The level of RP on /tg/ has plummeted over the years and I doubt we can get it back without rules like this.

You don't restore the RP level of TG by forcing players to do their jobs.

I'm sorry if "asking people to do the bare fucking minimum" is A Step Too Far.

[sinfulbliss]

The level of RP on /tg/ has plummeted over the years and I doubt we can get it back without rules like this.

You don't restore the RP level of TG by forcing players to do their jobs.

I'm sorry if "asking people to do the bare fucking minimum" is A Step Too Far.

Things come up in rounds that you may want to get involved in. People make their own plans that may just involve chilling and not doing much. Sometimes that involves not doing your job. Players should not be forced to explain this to an admin in a bwoink, and they should not be forced back into their departments to do tasks they don't want to. This policy won't help RP, it'll hurt RP on LRP, because often times players abandon their posts in order to get involved with stories and RP.

[kieth4]

This is a sandbox game that people play specifically on LRP to have the freedom to enjoy the sandbox. The various jobs provide the tools to do so and they don't have to necessarily even engage with the job content but with other awesome shit that happens around the station.

If ppl want to stay in their job roles they can go to mrp, or maybe even hrp. Don't kill it broskis

[Higgin]

I've got mixed feelings on this, and they're mostly informed by my time on MRP and self-identifying HRP servers.

On the one hand, a lot of the mechanical loops and systems of the game have been increasingly built to depend on each other. No power, everyone suffers. Nobody doing revivals, dsay overflows with salt that even our conga line of ghost roles and midrounds can't keep up with. If the round is merciful, it ends soon.

On the other, putting more expectations in stone takes away from the freedom and value of playing and filling them. Some people on MRP have a terrible sense of entitlement. It's infinitely worse and more widespread on places like Skyrat. It's toxic, and it leaves me half-tempted to start deliberately sabotaging shit or sitting like Achilles in his tent whenever I catch it.

It's probably for the better if we don't go justifying expectations that depend on folks being competent, friendly, and willing to do things because of their roundstart role. People are new/bad at things, antagonists, and aren't necessarily playing the game for anyone other than themselves.

As long as anyone else is free to step into the void that they leave, assuming that they've actually left it, the current rule is fine - it deals with single-slot and otherwise irreplaceable roles, but nothing requires that an engineer set up the engine or a doctor do the surgery.

If you want people to lean into the roles they pick more, it might be better to step back and ask "what about doing this job loop/filling this imagined role makes it rewarding?"

If you're coming up short on answers, don't be surprised when people pick assistant or treat the entry-level roles in each dept. as assistant (orange/blue/purple - not red, because picking sec deprives you of the ability to antag and puts a big-ass target on your back, but you get the idea.)

If picking the role means you can't choose to not do it or how, why would we expect people to pick the role otherwise?

If the game depends on it being done to be playable, why even make it something players have a hand in doing?

E1:
I'm not sure what your solution ends up being. Metacurrencies for doing well in a role or as a department?

There's only so much you can do within the space of a round. People on LRP in my experience are generally very appreciative of you going out of your way for them as medical, but relying on reputation/asspats for people to do the roles isn't reliable.

I guess what occurs to me is that, generally speaking, people don't like being funneled into being npcs or trash mobs in somebody else's game. It's one of my frustrations with antagonists on MRP who scream "validhunting" like they're God's gift to everyone in the round while pretty much treating their targets as disposable or interchangeable.

[blackdav123]

I guess what occurs to me is that, generally speaking, people don't like being funneled into being npcs or trash mobs in somebody else's game.

This sums up how I feel. Some shifts I want to be an engineer who makes the super bestest power generation the world has ever known and sometimes I want to be a dickhead that security arrests for using all of the SM's emitters on an art project.

If the game completely grinds to a halt the instant an engineer stops setting up the SM then that is a code issue that should probably be addressed rather than having admins micromanage the station like a rimworld colony.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I disagree with this, not because I disagree with the core premise, but because I think this is the wrong solution.

People not doing their job shouldn't be met with an admin yelling at you OOC, it should be met with command demoting you and stripping your job gear, or if your job is critical to the station, like engineering not having set up power, then security should be arresting you for dereliction.

People not doing their jobs isn't really the issue, it's the fact that the people who should be handling that dereliction are not doing so.

Why are they not doing so? Because we barely have Command outside of human mains like Lisa Green because people prefer keeping Command to humans only over actually having a healthy pool of Command players in the first place, and we have no Security players because every security shift ends in either you being dead, stripped, and forgotten in a crate in maintenance (aka you lost fight as security) or it ends in a bwoink where even if you're correct in everything you did, you have to spend a half hour explaining your every action OOC to an admin about why your arrests were valid, and also the person/people you arrested will harass you OOC, in dead chat, AND they will continue to harass you on the Discord (and they will 100% leave out critical information or otherwise twist the situation when they do so, so you have to justify your every action and explain why it was all valid A SECOND TIME so you don't look like shitsec), and this is MUCH worse if you arrest people for things they feel you should not arrest them for, like graytiding or dereliction (you won the fight as security).

Basically, I'm saying that the prevalence of unresolved dereliction is a symptom of a broken food chain, where the rabbits are overpopulating because the hawks in the area died out. The solution isn't to bwoink the rabbits, it's to address the problems which murdered the hawks.

Remove the humans only restriction on Command so that experienced players can play Command instead of being forced to be low level jobs to maintain their statics, and have the admin team crack down on people harassing security for doing their job, rather than having them crack down on other people for not doing their job.

[Fatal]

Some people seem to have misunderstand my proposed rule change

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role, require a minimum amount of effort to do their job and/ or assist their team directly or indirectly to accomplish their goals. Also players in any role should ensure their department provides a basic level of service to the rest of the station, unless there is a legitimate in-character reason to refuse this

This doesn't mean EVERY player has to do their job, with any real efficiency either, as long as SOMEONE in the department has taken responsibility for the very BASICS that the department would be expected to offer by the rest of the crew

Here's some examples from what other people have posted:

Kieths engineer example, can I leave engineering and build a maint bar? - If you are the only engineer, the basic expectation is that you spend a couple of minutes (which is at very shortest rounds is going to be 10-5 percent of your round), setting up the SM to work. Once that is done, the basic level of service is met, and you are free to gimmick away

If you aren't the only engineer, I think as long as you spend a few seconds talking with the rest of your department (I know, talking right) and ensure that someone is going to setup the SM (even if they don't but they verbally take responsibility, that's on their hands at that point), you don't personally have to have anything to do with it and can gimmick away


As for mining, given the intergalactic materials market thing is in, and miners have to earn points to buy skeleton keys for the tendril chests anyway, I don't think this rule would even need to cover them

As for the security example, I don't know what planet a "basic level of service" means "kill all the antags with no mercy or get bwoinked" comes from, and I don't think rule 5 would cover security anyway because they already have their own expectations

Perhaps the rule needs a rewording regarding something like:

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role, require a minimum amount of effort to do their job and/ or assist their team directly or indirectly to accomplish their goals. Also players in any role should ensure their department provides a basic level of critical service to the rest of the station, unless there is a legitimate in-character reason to refuse this

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

As for the security example, I don't know what planet a "basic level of service" means "kill all the antags with no mercy or get bwoinked" comes from, and I don't think rule 5 would cover security anyway because they already have their own expectations

That is not the point of my post at all, what?

The point of my post is that your proposed rule change is the incorrect way to go about solving the issue you're complaining about. The correct way to solve dereliction is to fix the issues causing us to have no command or security, so that way dereliction can be solved in character, not to bwoink people for not providing a basic level of their department's service. Lack of critical services is a symptom of a lack of in-character enforcers of job expectations. Please go back and re-read my post.

[Fatal]

As for the security example, I don't know what planet a "basic level of service" means "kill all the antags with no mercy or get bwoinked" comes from, and I don't think rule 5 would cover security anyway because they already have their own expectations

That is not the point of my post at all, what?

The point of my post is that your proposed rule change is the incorrect way to go about solving the issue you're complaining about. The correct way to solve dereliction is to fix the issues causing us to have no command or security, so that way dereliction can be solved in character, not to bwoink people for not providing a basic level of their department's service. Lack of critical services is a symptom of a lack of in-character enforcers of job expectations. Please go back and re-read my post.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I should have quoted the examples

I meant kieths post: What about security's freedom to not instantly vaporise bad guys to give the round SOME flavour?

I can appreciate some people might think this is the incorrect way to solve the issues, and I'm all ears for any other suggestions, and I would rather these things are resolved ICly, but, they never are


As for people harassing security doing their jobs, especially in OOC manner, I think this is already covered by the rules, I know I certainly don't stand for it on Terry, but as for discord, I'm not a discord jannie so I can't speak for them but I'm pretty sure that's also against our discord rules

[kieth4]

I've been bwoinked and noted for letting tots go already...btw..
I take it the forums because I'm a sweaty nerd and get it removed but a lot of lrp players do NOT go to the forums- we ALREADY get shit takes in some cases and I think by adding a forced do ur job rule it would create even more variance and more opportunity for shit takes to happen

[Not-Dorsidarf]

This thread makes me remember a recent round where there were only 2 engineers - an experienced veteran player and a newbie who'd never done it before.

Veteran engineer immediately went to the bar to get drunk and chat with other players.

Round ended with a minimum-time shuttle call after the supermatter reached critical final cascade before they bothered to respond to the increasingly panicked shouting over engiradio between the newbie and the AI.

[CPTANT]

This thread makes me remember a recent round where there were only 2 engineers - an experienced veteran player and a newbie who'd never done it before.

Veteran engineer immediately went to the bar to get drunk and chat with other players.

Round ended with a minimum-time shuttle call after the supermatter reached critical final cascade before they bothered to respond to the increasingly panicked shouting over engiradio between the newbie and the AI.

This is not a bad outcome, this is content.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

This thread makes me remember a recent round where there were only 2 engineers - an experienced veteran player and a newbie who'd never done it before.

Veteran engineer immediately went to the bar to get drunk and chat with other players.

Round ended with a minimum-time shuttle call after the supermatter reached critical final cascade before they bothered to respond to the increasingly panicked shouting over engiradio between the newbie and the AI.

This is not a bad outcome, this is content.

Round uninteractively ending super early because the engineer not only didn't bother to check the engine was being handled right, but also didnt respond to any of the emergency talk is only content for the newbie engineer. Everyone else gets a wet fart SM explosion and an expedited shuttlecall.

[iwishforducks]

This thread makes me remember a recent round where there were only 2 engineers - an experienced veteran player and a newbie who'd never done it before.

Veteran engineer immediately went to the bar to get drunk and chat with other players.

Round ended with a minimum-time shuttle call after the supermatter reached critical final cascade before they bothered to respond to the increasingly panicked shouting over engiradio between the newbie and the AI.

This is not a bad outcome, this is content.

Round uninteractively ending super early because the engineer not only didn't bother to check the engine was being handled right, but also didnt respond to any of the emergency talk is only content for the newbie engineer. Everyone else gets a wet fart SM explosion and an expedited shuttlecall.

well realistically what would have changed if the guy didn't pick engineer? because it seems like the exact same thing would have happened if he didn't pick engineer

[Cheshify]

This thread makes me remember a recent round where there were only 2 engineers - an experienced veteran player and a newbie who'd never done it before.

Veteran engineer immediately went to the bar to get drunk and chat with other players.

Round ended with a minimum-time shuttle call after the supermatter reached critical final cascade before they bothered to respond to the increasingly panicked shouting over engiradio between the newbie and the AI.

This is not a bad outcome, this is content.

Round uninteractively ending super early because the engineer not only didn't bother to check the engine was being handled right, but also didnt respond to any of the emergency talk is only content for the newbie engineer. Everyone else gets a wet fart SM explosion and an expedited shuttlecall.

well realistically what would have changed if the guy didn't pick engineer? because it seems like the exact same thing would have happened if he didn't pick engineer

I think the point they're making is that if he isn't going to play engineer, he shouldn't pick it.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

This thread makes me remember a recent round where there were only 2 engineers - an experienced veteran player and a newbie who'd never done it before.

Veteran engineer immediately went to the bar to get drunk and chat with other players.

Round ended with a minimum-time shuttle call after the supermatter reached critical final cascade before they bothered to respond to the increasingly panicked shouting over engiradio between the newbie and the AI.

This is not a bad outcome, this is content.

Round uninteractively ending super early because the engineer not only didn't bother to check the engine was being handled right, but also didnt respond to any of the emergency talk is only content for the newbie engineer. Everyone else gets a wet fart SM explosion and an expedited shuttlecall.

well realistically what would have changed if the guy didn't pick engineer? because it seems like the exact same thing would have happened if he didn't pick engineer

I mean, okay, then why did he pick engineer instead of assistant?

Sounds to me like he just took up a job slot with no intent of doing the job.

Edit: Heck you Cheshify

[Pepper]

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who play the game just to be a silly little guy running around annoying people. The level of RP on /tg/ has plummeted over the years and I doubt we can get it back without rules like this.

Nostalgia tinted glasses. It didn't help that Manuel split the playerbase in half, leaving newer sybil/terry players with less role models to learn by example from. All the split seemed to do was polarize both servers to one extreme or the other... that 'sweet spot' from 2016-2018 is dead directly as a result.

E: For clarification, I'm talking about people going around getting into shoving matches or beating each other to a pulp because they find it fun, or people breaking a bunch of windows for no reason. The kind of player who says maybe five words a round. That's where my frustration is, not people who don't take the game seriously.

There are way less of these people that the average person experiences on a round to round basis than you think.

[iwishforducks]

I think the point they're making is that if he isn't going to play engineer, he shouldn't pick it.

I mean, okay, then why did he pick engineer instead of assistant?

Sounds to me like he just took up a job slot with no intent of doing the job.

there's 5 engineer slots. as long as it doesn't become an issue every round with job slots being maxed out with people who don't do jackshit with the job... then like... [forum weapon here]

[iwishforducks]

anyhow, the basis of my argument is that we should be beating the shit out of bartenders who aren't bar tending. only one job slot on that guy. fuck 'em if they're walking out of the bar and not tending it.
engineers? there's 5 slots. who cares.
scientists? what the fuck do scientists even do?
cargo techs? more limited slots but it's not really a contested job at all. who cares. (the qm should care. because it's fun to whip your techies into shape.)

if you wanted to play a role and they're maxed out, there's plenty of ways to get onto that role through in-round means. it is a bit annoying to do so, though. but i really just don't see how it's enough of a prominent issue worth hammering with a "You Must Play Your Job" policy

[kieth4]

This thread makes me remember a recent round where there were only 2 engineers - an experienced veteran player and a newbie who'd never done it before.

Veteran engineer immediately went to the bar to get drunk and chat with other players.

Round ended with a minimum-time shuttle call after the supermatter reached critical final cascade before they bothered to respond to the increasingly panicked shouting over engiradio between the newbie and the AI.

This is not a bad outcome, this is content.

Round uninteractively ending super early because the engineer not only didn't bother to check the engine was being handled right, but also didnt respond to any of the emergency talk is only content for the newbie engineer. Everyone else gets a wet fart SM explosion and an expedited shuttlecall.

well realistically what would have changed if the guy didn't pick engineer? because it seems like the exact same thing would have happened if he didn't pick engineer

I mean, okay, then why did he pick engineer instead of assistant?

Sounds to me like he just took up a job slot with no intent of doing the job.

Edit: Heck you Cheshify

Maybe homie was gonna do some engi stuff but went "I want to hang out with my friends in bar instead" and there should be nothing wrong on LRP doing this. Really do not want to lose this freedom

[Shellton(Mario)]

GUYS GUYS GUYS, warden out of brig ban him right fucking now

[Pepper]

► Show Spoiler

Some people seem to have misunderstand my proposed rule change

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role, require a minimum amount of effort to do their job and/ or assist their team directly or indirectly to accomplish their goals. Also players in any role should ensure their department provides a basic level of service to the rest of the station, unless there is a legitimate in-character reason to refuse this

This doesn't mean EVERY player has to do their job, with any real efficiency either, as long as SOMEONE in the department has taken responsibility for the very BASICS that the department would be expected to offer by the rest of the crew

Self service is a thing. This rule falls to pieces during lowpop - not to mention the thousands of potentially created tickets over some spit dribbler ringing the R&D desk bell 3 times then ahelping that nobody is doing science's job (or HoP, or engineering, or security, et cetera). I don't see how punishing people for organically being pulled away from their job to roleplay (and having the burden of explaining why always be on them) is going to help anything at all. All this will do is create more work for admins with next to no return on time investment.

► Show Spoiler

Here's some examples from what other people have posted:

Kieths engineer example, can I leave engineering and build a maint bar? - If you are the only engineer, the basic expectation is that you spend a couple of minutes (which is at very shortest rounds is going to be 10-5 percent of your round), setting up the SM to work. Once that is done, the basic level of service is met, and you are free to gimmick away

If you aren't the only engineer, I think as long as you spend a few seconds talking with the rest of your department (I know, talking right) and ensure that someone is going to setup the SM (even if they don't but they verbally take responsibility, that's on their hands at that point), you don't personally have to have anything to do with it and can gimmick away

We already have a huge problem with competent engineer staffing and this will only make it worse. Not to mention that when there's at least one half sentient engineer the SM usually gets set up anyways. The only times I see the engine going untouched is when there are no engineers on station, so I guess you'll have to settle for bwoinking the SM for not generating power.

► Show Spoiler

As for mining, given the intergalactic materials market thing is in, and miners have to earn points to buy skeleton keys for the tendril chests anyway, I don't think this rule would even need to cover them

Also very rarely an issue, unless you count the miners dying as neglecting their duties.

► Show Spoiler

As for the security example, I don't know what planet a "basic level of service" means "kill all the antags with no mercy or get bwoinked" comes from, and I don't think rule 5 would cover security anyway because they already have their own expectations

What is the point of this proposed change then? There's so many exceptions out of the gate that the entire thing just seems clumsy.

► Show Spoiler

Perhaps the rule needs a rewording regarding something like:

5. Players in a head of staff, AI/Silicon role, or a team conversion role, require a minimum amount of effort to do their job and/ or assist their team directly or indirectly to accomplish their goals. Also players in any role should ensure their department provides a basic level of critical service to the rest of the station, unless there is a legitimate in-character reason to refuse this

You WILL spend an hour and a half doing wound surgery, medcuck. LOWPOP DEMANDS IT.

► Show Spoiler

GUYS GUYS GUYS, warden out of brig ban him right fucking now

You may be onto something here.