[Dunham] avaster - complaint

Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:42 am
Byond Username: Avaster

[Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by avaster » #726545

Post Content:
When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): game server
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: avaster/appo martin
Admin: Dunham

[1] unknown [the ticket he closed when I asked about asking PMing]
[2] 227191 [warden incident]

Detailed summary:

[1] I once made an F1 ticket and Dunham and I were talking about 'MetaGruding'. I asked Dunham if they could simply PM this other user (rather not say the name) to get their side of the story and perspective that they wre having an OOC conflict with me, something along the lines of ''What is up with you and ____', then based on the information, ask to not interact with the other player in a bad manner. This was just so that they could proactively resolve a potential conflict in the future. I was talking to Dunham about a another player's behaviour (rather not name), and I'd rather the MetaGruding to just stop. Dunham says he 'only PMs with intent to note' (something along those lines.) so from my understanding, if Dunham is not giving out a note or punishment, PMing about a conflict is not allowed. He then out of no-where just closes the ticket and stops all conversation, presumably not taking any proactive steps to stop a potential conflict, thanks to this later got me ticketed/noted for 'creating conflicts' [227187], by the same admin Dunham. This note could've potentially been completely dodged if Dunham had a talk with the other player. Furthermore he didn't say a word, when closing the ticket, just simply closed the ticket in an unprofessional manner leaving me with further questions which are still unanswered.

[2] [227191] This is my main complaint for the most part. It's complicated but I will try my hardest to explain. I rolled Blood Brother and flashed a chemist in the corner of the big pharmacy room, and before or after that I threw nuke extraction supplies on the floor. I then retrieved a flash from tech storage (the old one obviously burnt out, so I threw it away.) I then grab water vapor from the janitor's closet and release it outside of security, which I then get beaten to death by the Chaplain.

Then I get revived at medbay, and coincidentally, the exact same person, the CMO, somehow saw me drop the nuke supplies that was way out of the sight of medbay, and saw me flash someone in the corner of the huge pharmacy room. I personally find this ridiculously suspicious that the exact same person saw me do both of these things but this is besides the point.

Then warden [dont remember his name] then throws me in perma because of one single person's testimony, which I found was complete bullshit so I ahelped and Dunham states this:
-- Administrator private message --
Admin PM from-Dunham: Someone saw you drop your plutonium extraction kit near sec, which you do have that as an objective. They also saw you flash Huffs. Warden added up all the evidence and found the flash in your pocket. That's deductive reasoning. Next time, try not to get caught
Click on the administrator's name to reply.
I then tried to understand and give my opinion to Dunham what captain did was senseless logic. Whenever a blood brother flashes someone, it burns out. Therefore, the flash I obtained from tech storage that was found in my pocket is completely irrelevant. Furthermore, the testimony from one single person who happened to see me both flash AND drop nuclear extraction supplies, is a weak argument as well because they were the only person who supposedly saw me do both of these things, there were no more witnesses.
I then ask Dunham, what if, next shift, I was Chief Engineer and threw traitor supplies and then told security some random assistant did it, do they get perma'd? It would be ridiculous.

Upon trying to ask for further clarification so I get a better understanding of the situation and why this is apparently allowed, he then does the exact same thing he did in [1] & closes my ticket out of nowhere.

I'm personally unhappy with the way the admin failed to see the reason why the permabrig had no sensible proof, there was not enough sufficient evidence to be placed in permabrig.

I'm also upset at the fact that when I try to understand this admin's point of view, he closes down tickets out of nowhere and refuses to talk. From my eyes, this is unprofessional and doesn't help anyone. It also doesn't help me get a better understanding of the server's grey-lines & what is allowed (what is not mentioned in the rules, etc.)
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Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by Dunham » #726548

Let's start off where the issue began in (227074).

This is the round where you were demoted for securing the hand tele and giving it to the curator to teach the captain a lesson about tiders. Upon examining the logs and the information at the time, it was concluded that the captain rounded up cargo to demote you for your insubordination with Captain's orders. In the ticket that was sent for this issue, we had a total of 48 messages sent in which the captain in question was talked to about his horrible handling of your demotion. You accused the captain that he formed a metagang against you with cargo due to what you did, but you didn't know that the captain in question explained in a meeting that he wanted a station militia to help with lack of sec on your demotion. I had also talked to the Captain in the same round about him not handling your demotion well and told him to give proper clothing, ID with assistant access, and personal belongings to whoever he demotes in the future. It was concluded in that ticket that there wasn't enough evidence to support a metagrudging claim and I had asked you to please report further grudging behaviors in the future. Metagrudging is a serious rulebreak, and we have to note if the claims are true. You continued to talk about not punishing him, just talking to him, which I found after 48 messages of me repeating myself, I deducted that the issue was solved.

Now with the issue of (227191)

Not only did the CMO see where you left your flash, the detective also saw that you left your core box it in the starboard hallway for everyone to see. CMO also brought your burnt out flash to Sec
[2024-04-14 07:28:41.737] TELECOMMS: ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) (mob_3480) [Security] (spans: ) "Appo martin just... chucked all this shit here?" (language: Galactic Common) (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,130,2))
[2024-04-14 07:28:54.949] TELECOMMS: SecretCobra/(Proto Ai 4.5c) (mob_3432) [Engineering] (spans: robot command_headset ) "The other techie is in atmos,scrubs" (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2024-04-14 07:28:58.827] TELECOMMS: Auto86313/(Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "Set appo to arrest" (language: Galactic Common) (Aft Central Primary Hallway (171,115,2))
[2024-04-14 07:29:03.034] TELECOMMS: Auto86313/(Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "Burnt out flash" (language: Galactic Common) (Aft Central Primary Hallway (171,115,2))
[2024-04-14 07:29:03.235] TELECOMMS: ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) (mob_3480) [Security] (spans: ) "Please do." (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (199,131,2))
[2024-04-14 07:29:08.456] TELECOMMS: ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) (mob_3480) [Security] (spans: ) "Just dropped a box of syndi stuff here" (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (200,135,2))
stuff here" (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (200,135,2))
[2024-04-14 07:29:14.410] TELECOMMS: Randumb Phantomb/(Rebecca Gardner) (mob_3371) [Security] (spans: ) "Seems hasty ma'am" (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (200,128,2))
[2024-04-14 07:29:39.301] TELECOMMS: Auto86313/(Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "At least search them" (language: Galactic Common) (Medbay Lobby (163,102,2))
[2024-04-14 07:29:56.074] TELECOMMS: ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) (mob_3480) [Security] (spans: ) "Seems like CMO brought the burnt out flash here." (language: Galactic Common) (Security Office (204,151,2))
[2024-04-14 07:29:59.233] TELECOMMS: Auto86313/(Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) [Security] (spans: command_headset ) "What they drop?" (language: Galactic Common) (Chief Medical Officer's Office (139,81,2))
[2024-04-14 07:30:04.265] TELECOMMS: ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) (mob_3480) [Security] (spans: ) "It has black glove prints so... Who knows" (language: Galactic Common) (Security Office (204,151,2))
[2024-04-14 07:30:15.227] TELECOMMS: ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) (mob_3480) [Security] (spans: ) "And uh... A nuke extraction stuff." (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (200,146,2))
[2024-04-14 07:30:16.700] TELECOMMS: The Automated Announcement System [Common] (spans: robot ) "Ja-Khajin Teymaava has signed up as Station Engineer" (language: Calcic) (Telecomms Control Room (148,134,2))
[2024-04-14 07:30:24.983] TELECOMMS: ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) (mob_3480) [Security] (spans: ) "Just tossed the box right at security." (language: Galactic Common) (Brig (200,135,2))
This is considered deductive since CMO happened to see where you ditched the flash, brought it to security along with the detective seeing that you threw your Core box right in front of sec. I've explained this to you in the ticket but you were not understanding that this was a fair assumption so I closed the ticket to stop arguing with you.
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:42 am
Byond Username: Avaster

Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by avaster » #726549

You say 'I explained this to you in the ticket', but you didn't. Your explanation was:

"Admin PM from-Dunham: Someone saw you drop your plutonium extraction kit near sec, which you do have that as an objective. They also saw you flash Huffs. Warden added up all the evidence and found the flash in your pocket. That's deductive reasoning. Next time, try not to get caught"

You never even mentioned the word Detective in the whole ticket as far as I'm aware. Even if it was the case that the CMO and Detective saw me, this does not matter in the grand scheme of things. The part you miss is the actual underlying problem: it is that the Warden had no clue of that. His reasoning, and yours originally was because I had a flash in my pocket. He or yourself did not even mention that the detective knew about this. That's the problem here, the Warden's own reasoning was invalid.

In my opinion, the part where you closed the ticket on me trying to understand the rulesets more thoroughly was not professional. I had a genuine question about about whether or not if I could drop traitor items and get someone permabrigged just by their word. You closed the ticket without saying anything. Even now, I'm still wondering what the answer the question is.
From my perspective, I asked a genuine question and wanted to understand the rules, you closed the ticket instantly. I don't see how this is ok.
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Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by Dunham » #726550

You do realize that this is in sec comms, where the warden was listening to the entire conversation, right?
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:42 am
Byond Username: Avaster

Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by avaster » #726554

If you checked his own chat logs you would see he doesn't even know the reason, and mentioned the flash in my pockets. He was even about to go get HoS or a lawyer because he was uncertain (check chat logs).
Further reason that the Warden does not know the arrest reason is if you did happen to bwoink the Warden, I'm almost sure (I don't even know if you bwoinked him in the first place) that he did not give you the Detective speaking over the comms as his reason, otherwise you would've mentioned this to me my original ticket.

I'm still not happy with the fact that you closed my ticket unprompted twice & also didn't mention the Detective at all nor the fact that the Warden supposedly saw this in comms in the ticket, even though you said you did.

I'm also not happy about the fact you originally had the mindset in the original ticket of "You had a flash in your pockets, its deductive reasoning", which you told to another player before you got more details before I wrote this report is concerning, because you potentially told false information to another player.
Although like I said, I don't even know what the answer is because you closed the ticket out of nowhere. All I know is that when a blood brother flashes someone else they get a BURNT out flash, why is having a brand new flash in their pockets relevant at all? It simply makes no sense.
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Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by Dunham » #726555


I did happen to message the warden about it and it adds up to what I saw in the logs
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:42 am
Byond Username: Avaster

Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by avaster » #726556

I really don't know why this wasn't explained in the ticket instead of closing it when I asked if security saw anything so we could [1] avoid unnecessary bother [2] so I understood the rules better & [3] potentially avoid this whole complaint all together. Although the rest of my points about closing tickets out of nowhere and the original explanation about having a flash in my pocket being somehow deductive reasoning still stands. If I wouldn't of made the complaint I would've probably went with the mindset you originally told me that all security can just throw people in permabrig for a he said she said and not these extra important details which could've been explained in the ticket if it wasn't for your sudden closing of the ticket because you didn't want to answer player questions.
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Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by Dunham » #726557

Alright, lets go over your ticket.

From Ticket #3 during round 227191 on Manuel:

---- Log Begins ----
2024-04-14 07:54:28: Ticket Opened by avaster: this hos is throwing me in perma for blood brother with no evidence, I took a flash from tech storage and im being perma'd for it
2024-04-14 07:57:56: Reply from dunham: There isn't a HOS, there's the warden, one sec officer, and a detective.
2024-04-14 07:58:09: Reply from avaster: if i said hos i meant warden sorry
2024-04-14 07:58:23: Reply from avaster: he threw me in perma because I took a flash from tech storage and didnt bother listening
2024-04-14 07:58:41: Reply from avaster: the only crime i committed was water vapor
2024-04-14 07:58:59: Reply from avaster: and i had a flash in my pocket I took from tech storage, im now perma'd
2024-04-14 08:00:33: Reply from avaster: although I am a blood brother, he has no evidence. I already used my flash on a chemist and dumped it where no one was looking and took a new one from tech storage. his evidence was because I had a normal flash in my pocket
2024-04-14 08:02:37: Reply from avaster: anyway thats my traitor round ruined for no reason which is great
2024-04-14 08:02:51: Reply from avaster: :D
2024-04-14 08:03:20: Reply from dunham: Just give me a second, I'm talking with him

(This is where I pm'd the warden while checking through the logs to see what he said matched up with the evidence presented in your ticket and in his)

2024-04-14 08:07:08: Reply from dunham: Looks like someone saw you flash Huffs and dropped your nuke extraction kit near sec
2024-04-14 08:08:03: Reply from avaster: no one was there & why didnt he mention this, his original reason was upset because i had a flash on me, he never saw me flash anyone or drop anything
2024-04-14 08:08:29: Reply from dunham: Well someone saw you and made a tip off to sec. It's literally in the logs
2024-04-14 08:08:34: Reply from avaster: even if it was the case someone happened to see me, even though i swear they didnt, he didnt know this ICly probably until you told him or knew about it

(this is an accusation where I did not tell anyone IC/OOC information whatsoever, you may review the logs for yourself and see where security deducted that you're a bloodbrother)

2024-04-14 08:09:30: Reply from avaster: so you're telling me I could accuse someone next shift for flashing someone, and they go get perma'd no matter what? thats ridiculous. theres no actual proof
2024-04-14 08:10:31: Reply from avaster: you realise just because there are logs that say that, doesnt mean at the time he had an IC actual reason. and the reason no matter what is bullshit, its he said she said
2024-04-14 08:11:32: Reply from avaster: at the time of the arrest, he did not know this. he probably only knows NOW because you told him or knew about it later, this irrelevant. do you know what I mean?

(again, another accusation that I told him information when in reality, I just pm'd him to see why he perma'd you)

2024-04-14 08:12:25: Reply from avaster: there's no actual way, next shift, I could do a 'tip off' to sec, tell some random sec about some assistant and tell him he flashed someone, they get permad. are you actaully telling me thats enough proof?
2024-04-14 08:12:49: Reply from avaster: its flawed logic that ruined my antag roll
2024-04-14 08:14:47: Reply from dunham: So based on the evidence in the logs, and the warden's reasoning:<br />
<br />
Someone saw you drop your plutonium extraction kit near sec, which you do have that as an objective. They also saw you flash Huffs. Warden added up all the evidence and found the flash in your pocket. That's deductive reasoning. Next time, try not to get caught

(I am being vague because this is DURING round and trying to avoid name call outs to keep the integrity of the round. This is where I made my judgement that it was fair play.)

2024-04-14 08:15:38: Reply from avaster: man you cant be serious. please check the logs, i took the flash from tech storage... it is irrelevant evidence
2024-04-14 08:16:19: Reply from avaster: I flashed someone, it burnt out. I got a new one? it has nothing to do with anything
2024-04-14 08:16:23: Reply from dunham: I did check the logs and i'm literally telling you what I found.
2024-04-14 08:17:07: Reply from avaster: do you realise it isnt 'deductive reasoning', the flash in my pocket is completely irrelevant. it has nothing to do with anything, you realise blood brothers can only flash ONCE
2024-04-14 08:17:25: Reply from avaster: then it gets burnt out?
2024-04-14 08:17:30: Reply from dunham: Someone saw you drop your plutonium extraction kit......

(It doesn't take much to put two and two together that you had dropped syndicate contraband and with the CMO finding your burnt flash)

2024-04-14 08:17:48: Reply from avaster: and were they security?
2024-04-14 08:17:53: Reply from dunham: I'm done arguing with you.

(I made a clear indication that this ticket was over. There was no abrupt ending.)

2024-04-14 08:17:56: Resolved by Dunham
---- No Further Messages ----

This ticket can be viewed: This ticket was generated by Statbus v.1.18.1
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2023 9:42 am
Byond Username: Avaster

Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by avaster » #726558

the abrupt ending was when I asked you if they were security, so that would give me an answer whether a security was involved. 5 seconds later, you closed the ticket.

you could of just said another security saw me or something along those lines instead of just saying the detective. I even asked you if it was security. there would be no name calling and it wouldn't of compromised the round.

i won't be replying further and leaving it to whoever deals with these issues.
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Re: [Dunham] avaster - complaint

Post by dendydoom » #726684


we are choosing to close this complaint.

i shall start with the second point of your complaint, since it is the most recent. you converted huffs into your blood brother and dumped physical evidence in a place where it was found:

Code: Select all

GAME: 07:27:44.037] GAME: (Huffs-The-Fumes) was made into a blood brother by Avaster/(Appo Martin)
GAME-SAY: 07:28:41.732] GAME-SAY: (David Dave) (mob_3480) "appo martin just... chucked all this shit here?" (Starboard Primary Hallway (192,130,2))
this was within less than a minute of each other. it is extremely likely that even if you weren't spotted firsthand, someone could make the reasonable deduction that someone dropping antagonistic items and hanging out with their new best friend is a huge red flag.

valorn then reports this over sec comms a total of 3 times, as well as the original witness reporting your location:

Code: Select all

GAME-SAY: 07:28:58.822] GAME-SAY: (Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) "Set appo to arrest" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (171,115,2))
GAME-SAY: 07:31:41.790] GAME-SAY: (Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) "Appo is a blood brother" (Chief Medical Officer's Office (139,81,2))
GAME-SAY: 07:32:56.310] GAME-SAY: (Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) "Captain we got heretics I think and Appo is a blood brother, dropped their nuke extraction kit at sec and has presumbly converted someone" (Chief Medical Officer's Office (146,80,2))
GAME-SAY: 07:33:24.310] GAME-SAY: (David Dave) (mob_3480) "appo is above bridge" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (154,147,2))
you are then summarily executed, but then brought back to life under orders:

Code: Select all

GAME-SAY: 07:37:58.024] GAME-SAY: (Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) "please deny Appo medical help as they are an EoTC" (Medbay Treatment Center (160,92,2))
GAME-SAY: 07:40:08.611] GAME-SAY: (Valorn Quasar) (mob_3352) "do you want the appo revived?" (Medbay Treatment Center (159,90,2))
GAME: 07:45:23.317] GAME: (Appo Martin) (mob_3358) Client Avaster/(Appo Martin) has taken ownership of mob Appo Martin(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Medbay Treatment Center (161,92,2))
we are in agreement that this is an entirely reasonable level of deduction. in fact, it's so reasonable that i'd consider it textbook. there's absolutely nothing wrong here.

your example of framing someone with evidence is also something that happens in the game, albeit it's not something that's suitable for non-antagonists to be doing. nevertheless, their deduction was correct, meaning that your argument is predicated on a false equivalency.

the implication that dunham closed the ticket abruptly is also not true: there are almost 50 messages between you both across multiple tickets where he explains the reasoning, shows you direct logs, and you refuse to accept any of this. when an admin makes a ruling, they do not have to spend the rest of their evening defending it against every unrelated hypothetical that you can imagine. they fully investigated the situation and the relevant context, and made a sensible ruling for the situation.

moving on to point number 1. you make the argument that dunham was not acting impartially in addressing the conflict between you and another player. but this is also untrue.

players are not privy to conversations between admins and other players. it is worth considering that in this instance you've demonstrated that you're willing to drag out an issue beyond a reasonable expectation, and in doing so you risk losing some of the patience that admins are otherwise trying to show when performing their role. we are not robots or customer service. we are dungeon masters in a tabletop game that grew too big. you need to be more understanding of this, and treat it like a two way conversation instead of yelling at a customer service representative.

the reason i'm saying this is because dunham DID message the other player, and DID tell them the same thing that he told you, which was that his response was unreasonable and that you both needed to put more effort into disengaging from one another when the source of conflict could be oocly motivated.

you both had a part to play in this, therefore you both have a responsibility in ensuring that your responses to each other are ICly motivated, and if this is impossible, to try and separate.

Code: Select all

Look, you gotta drop your grudge towards him. Please avoid making conflicts with him in the future. I'm also telling Appo this. if I find out you guys are scuffling over nonsense again, I'm banning you both for a couple days. its getting outta hand
thanks for your time.
MrStonedOne wrote:I always read dendy's walls of text

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