Space Law

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Oh please, if we liberally banned for rule 1 violations then security would be non-exsistant and antagonists would do nothing hostile.

There's a difference between doing your job and going over the top.

[Lumbermancer]

Space Law is fine. And the "it's only suggestion and guideline" meme has to go.

[Thunder11]

Added a poll to try and get some numbers on people for/against this change.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Having an in game brig timer based on space law makes it much less of a "suggestion" and I would be opposed to it.

[PKPenguin321]

>thread got moved to Site, Forums, And Wiki board so nobody will ever look at it again and people will forget about space law
well played forum admins

[Shaps-cloud]

Well technically it is a wiki issue and never had any effect on gameplay

Plus it's back anyway now so I'm not really sure what the net change was here

[Malkevin]

No it got taken down again

And it does have an in game impact, the space law books in game link to that page.
The books were there as guide books like the hacking guide and engine set up ones

[kosmos]

Wow HG on dat powertrip once again.

Just make the suggestion-text bigger if your problem is some people taking it too seriously.

The wiki is full of "merely roleplay and not "canon""-stuff. Should we remove all of that as well?

[Steelpoint]

Do any other Head Admins have anything to say on this?

We've heard zip from HG aside from his minor comments telling Malk to not edit the page, then he locks the page down.

I honestly think HG just detest's security and has a vastly different idea of how it should work, considering his Sec nerf PR's and now this.

[Malkevin]

Supposedly it got removed because on Friday night I arrested someone breaking into the AI upload (yes there was no AI but there's still borgs) in a round everyone thought was shadowlings because the wizards mind swapped both the Cap and HoP, and the greytiders were out in force.
During the arrest he starts protesting going on about how he did nothing wrong etc etc, that hacking the upload door isn't a crime and pretty quickly breaks character with something along the lines of (check the wiki) or (check space law).
To which I, in my fairly drunken state, replied "Urist McSpacedorf says, "[Look, I'm malkevin, I wrote space law, I probably know it better than you, and also don't ooc in ic you cuck]""
BGO pms telling me off, I replied he started it and I thought that was that.

Apparently this was enough to get certain admin's knickers in a twist.

[Lumbermancer]

Can someone explain to me the fear behind having semi-codified times for crimes?

[Steelpoint]

Well its clear very few people agree with HG's unilateral decision to remove space law from the game.

[Davidchan]

Well technically it is a wiki issue and never had any effect on gameplay

Plus it's back anyway now so I'm not really sure what the net change was here

Given that the actual space law books point to the space law page for the wiki, I'd say it has a pretty damn big effect on gameplay as it means Security just gets to make up their own laws to enforce every round, or their job is solely to valid hunt and not give a shit about the regular crew and petty crimes of the station.

What's the clown going to do if Security is actively ignoring his antics?

[metacide]

So HG's gone on a bit of a mad one because Malk arrested them / because HG saw Malk arrest someone?

What a boob, someone take away their wiki privileges or something.

[Zilenan91]

I think it's fine if I'm honest. A lot of the sec policy Malk says is way too harsh for how little impact they have.

[Incomptinence]

Horny Granny removed it again. Not even sure headmins have fiat over our wiki like he is claiming or why he deserves wiki admin rights.

Anyway if anyone wants to update the book to still work have it refer to previous revisions like this one https://tgstation13.org/wiki//index.php ... ldid=14782 while this degenerate tidemin acts like SOS.

[Steelpoint]

This is still a unresolved issue and I will not let this slip into obscurity until either this decision is reversed or until Hornygranny informs the community in this thread as to why he's made a unilateral decision that almost no one supports and has had no communication from the admins, the headmins, the wiki owner or even himself.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Should we go through and strip out every other reference to roleplay on the wiki while we're at it? Because if that's what the Head Administrator has decided then so it shall be.

This is an alarmingly abrupt decision that indicates (to me), a turn down a very dark path for this server and the community.

[lumipharon]

Edit: whoops.

[FantasticFwoosh]

In retrospect. At least provide some half assed guidelines or restore them in full if you want to actually have sec do something in competency.

Its no use trying to cry about strawmen claims when the problem was just created that nobody knows space law really well enough to know it off hand and retain that info in memory (unless I and my exceptional knowledge that often leads to misinformed members of the public and sec force lynching me, despite being blaringly obvious to me anyway on the to-the-book course of action any lawyer cannot disagree with) and even in response, despite going past the slightly despotic admin route of ("what i say goes") nobody now could now even identify what they did wrong because the means was just destroyed perhaps irreparably in original detail (it was one of the finer areas of the wiki i must say, it would be a disservice to try and repair it with my mere mortal hands)

Do you really remember space law yourself HG? Or do you have a dirty little notepad on your personal pc with it all detailed out?

I weep for the trialmins and inexperienced who will probably deliver poorer admin service to reports because 'I dunno' or just going off their feelings because of the same kind of royalist attitude adopted in despotic finger wagging that got us here in the first place. Destroy a constitution and expect anarchy and to some extent, revolt until a new one is built.

!Go roundheads!

[Malkevin]

nobody now could now even identify what they did wrong because the means was just destroyed perhaps irreparably in original detail (it was one of the finer areas of the wiki i must say, it would be a disservice to try and repair it with my mere mortal hands)
[/size]

Nice thing about wiki's is you can undo page vandalism with the click of the button.

[Incomptinence]

He's made it an administrator access only page like you are the vandals. Then a wiki admin changed it back anyway.

[Malkevin]

Lolz

[Steelpoint]

Ah yeah I just noticed recently (after I made my post) that Kosmos undid HG's removal of the Space Law page.

---------

Any action akin to removing Space Law from the game, which despite what some people claim is a big deal and has major ramifications for security and antagonists, they should speak to the community first.

[PKPenguin321]

>poll is 25 to 3
>hg still hasnt posted in thread
>he deletes the wiki page and locks it
>thread is moved to this shitty dusty board and the rate of posts has already decreased significantly

there is a clear conspiracy going on here
my message might get deleted and maybe my forum account to, i'm worried hg is gonna kick down my door and shoot me IRL
if you're reading this run before they get you

[Steelpoint]

Since HG's deletion of the page was reversed there's currently not much to talk about. Unless either HG once again attempts to delete the page or he responds here then there's not much left to discuss aside from his shitty behaviour.

[ShadowDimentio]

What a great admin

[Hornygranny]

For the record, Lollerderby and I made a majority decision to remove the page. This sound like a topic for you to discuss with the new headmins in the coming weeks.

[Steelpoint]

Why was this decision reached? What does it accomplish?

Edit: Also HG removed Space Law, again. As well as blocking Kosmos's for editing the space law page.

[Hornygranny]

Because it's not part of the server rules, and can't be relied upon to play without getting in trouble.

I will keep undoing the page removal until you'll remove my wiki admin status.

[Ikarrus]

Kek.

It's election time so just lobby the new heamins to change it back.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Because it's not part of the server rules, and can't be relied upon to play without getting in trouble.

I will keep undoing the page removal until you'll remove my wiki admin status.

Could you offer a detailed statement as to how this violates those if you would please?

Explaining it to us in depth would have been more logical than just removing it to avoid uproar.

[Incomptinence]

That would go against his style. Poor communication is basically a political faction of its own at this point.

[Malkevin]

Because it's not part of the server rules, and can't be relied upon to play without getting in trouble.

I will keep undoing the page removal until you'll remove my wiki admin status.

Like what?

Because I was very careful that it was in line with policy when I updated it a few years back.

[Steelpoint]

Space Law has always been in line with security policy. Hell I think some sec policy was based off of space law to a minor extent.

Changed sec policy gave sec more leeyway, and that further makes space law useful for new people as a guide line for sentences, since now the policy's on sec are more loose thus giving less of a adherent guideline.

Hell, the sec policy simply states anything less than ten minutes is a IC concern, and most sentences advocate anywhere between one to five minutes of a sentence, or a gulag alternative. Anything worth a 10+ sentence is usually commited to a perma, gulag or execution sentence.

I fail to see how space law is in contradiction with security policy, unless we're using it as a buzzword to remove it.

Edit: Looking over the space law pages its very damn clear that Space Law very clearly adhears to the few finer points of security policy, such as keeping sentences fair and not stripping prisoners of items that don't need to be removed.

There is simply nothing I can see in Space Law that contradicts Security policy, and if there was it would be a simple matter to FIX it instead of REMOVING it.

Also the Space Law link's in game, and also all over the wiki AND on the front /tg/station home page are clearly linking to a empty page.

This is just a bad removal of something that there is no reasonable justification to remove.

[Atlanta-Ned]

I play a lot of security and never once have I been bwoinked for following/not following space law. Unless you can provide specific examples, that argument doesn't hold water.

[ShadowDimentio]

So rather than removing it just because he felt like it, he removed it because he and one other guy felt like it.

Well guys discussion closed the headmin felt a whim, who are we to argue?

[Steelpoint]

The significant problem here is that the two people who pushed this change through have made no solid argument for its removal.

It took about three day's for one of the two headmins to make a comment and that was just to inform us that it was a two man decision and not just one, as well as that poor excuse as to its removal.

Unless either headmin can elaborate more onto why space law was removed, I push that space law should be re-added since the argument made by Hornygranny holds no water or substance when put under scrutiny.

[Atlanta-Ned]

This sound like a topic for you to discuss with the new headmins in the coming weeks.

Shitty stance to take, tbh.

EDIT: While I'm at it, your indefinite block reason for Kosmos* (vandalizing the space law wiki page) is deeply concerning. That was not vandalism in any sense of the word. He reverted an edit that he and the overwhelming majority of poll respondents disagreed with. At the very least, we need to have a thoughtful discussion on Space Law, not a unilateral removal.

*Who also has a tremendous history of contributing to the wiki.

PS: Lollerderby, you wanna chime in here?

[Super Aggro Crag]

looks like you guys didn't get the memo, the name of the server stands for Tyrant Granny Station 13.

[Cheimon]

So, why does it hurt the rules? There was always a big banner across the top, saying it was a "roleplay suggestion". Given we're a medium roleplay server, it's fine to have a page about how you might play a role without forcing you into it.

I just think it's bizarre. What is this supposed to encourage? Security players being even more mysterious about what, if anything, they give a timed sentence for? If anything, saying "I didn't like the tone of your voice" and giving 5 minutes is now more justifiable, not less, because there's no apparent standard to hold anything up to. Yes, we have a rule that says "don't be a dick", but security players *very clearly* need some guidance on how to do their job of keeping the station secure and okay for everyone, breaking up petty crime and so on, without being perceived as hateful shitheads.

[Malkevin]

For the record, Lollerderby and I made a majority decision to remove the page. This sound like a topic for you to discuss with the new headmins in the coming weeks.

Kek.

It's election time so just lobby the new heamins to change it back.

Kek indeed.

Fat chance of any discussion happening seeing as you lot just reelected Mr Seperation-is-Absolute.

[ShadowDimentio]

I WARNED YOU IDIOTS THAT HG WAS A SHITBAG AND WAS GOING TO PULL SHIT LIKE THIS, BUT NOOO THE ADMINS DIDN'T LISTEN

THE END TIMES ARE HERE, AND WE HAVE TO SUFFER TOGETHER

[Lumbermancer]

Blame Shaps.

[starmute]

Fine, I'll correct myself

Awesome, now everything can be a major crime. Ten minutes for everyone.

hey malk i found the other rule that stops that one from being a problem
1. Don't be a dick.

Being a dick is subjective.

Have you ever seen how people rationalize their ban appeals?

Which also gives admins great latitude in determining who is a dick. Abused it can be a "I don't like you so you are banned" rule moreso than law 0.

[Hornygranny]

So, why does it hurt the rules? There was always a big banner across the top, saying it was a "roleplay suggestion".

It was actually removed from the page for around nine months until I noticed it at the end of last year.

[starmute]

So, why does it hurt the rules? There was always a big banner across the top, saying it was a "roleplay suggestion".

It was actually removed from the page for around nine months until I noticed it at the end of last year.

Where is the history? It looks like its been removed.... (I looked at it a week ago at least to compare it)

*Edit its back now.

[bandit]

I don't really care about Space Law so much as Kingofkosmos being permabanned from the wiki. Kosmos basically wrote a good portion of the wiki, which a lot of new players use (I get at least one "but the wiki said..." ahelp per day) and is responsible for it not looking like complete garbage.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.

[PKPenguin321]

nervously shuffles up to you
slips this into your hands
don't tell hg, ok?

[firecage]

HG. Honestly. What is the point of you rushing to do these crap load of things before your headmin term ends? The no AI thing, no Silicon Policy thing, removing Space law. Are you only doing it since you are hoping to get re-elected or something? And holy fuck are you doing to leave a bunch of hate and badly-done stuff at the next headmins feet.