/tg/Station 13

Actionb

Can't I just order the AI to kill any human with that lawset, since an order is an 'explicit request'? And what exactly do you want the AI to do with law 2 and 'with respect to rank' ? Is this to stop the clown law 2-ing their way into the upload? Or just generally to give orders from the higher ran...

Actionb

Let's assume that one implies what it literally says, you are not allowed to harm anything. Two implies that you are either to assist the crew with any requests they may have, or it may be a repeat of do no harm in that you should care about crew harm. Does this law or the first cover inaction or a...

Actionb

Shower thought: Silicons are meant to be not-quite-so-shitty and reliable assistants. Their sole purpose is helping out. So do not give the silicons a lawset that suggests any other motives (asimov: prevent harm, follow any orders, only humans count). 1. Do no harm. 2. Assist the crew. 3. Protect yo...

Actionb

4dplanners new PR: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/41820 Just to give you my understanding of what pre-scanning was meant for before autoprocess was a thing: You go to genetics while alive, get a scan backup and can then get cloned if the unfortunate happened. By itself that wasn't a big...

Actionb

Here is a crazy idea... IF the goal is to have less surprise moments of people getting cloned even though their body was spaced or hidden really well or whatever... what about making it so that ONLY dead bodies can be scanned. Then you could keep auto-cloning and people just throw dead body in, it ...

Actionb

Helpful insight. Thanks, good food for thought.

Actionb

... it's been pretty well known for a while that maintainers/headcoders will take an imperfect solution already coded that passes review to hypothetical solutions with no coding. Saying "let's just use this until we come up with a better thing" is as bad as saying "we are just gonna ...

Actionb

Using asimov in name only is a dumb idea and confuses people. Quote from 2014: As other's have stated, but by this point we are using Asimov's lawset in name only. Not in actual function. While I think the lawset is fine, since its been heavily refined over the years, I think giving it a unique name...

Actionb

Unpopular opinion: dont blame the silicons for trying to stop even the dumbest shit that can cause harm. Even more unpopular opinion: also dont blame the silicons for not trying to stop even the dumbest shit that can cause harm. They're human players after all. Stop trying to pretend they're omnisci...

Actionb

Ignore: Should we even discuss alternatives to asimov (or the AI being bound by laws in general) in this thread or would that be a bit out of scope? This thread can be used for that: It's time to fix Asimov Also reposting proposed changes or important points for anyone only just tuning in: Slim poli...

Actionb

All features/removals/etc. are posted publicly on the github where you can discuss your concerns before merging/during testmerges there. We give at least 24 hours before merging so signing in at least once a day will assure you're able to contribute to every discussion (most PRs aren't worth much t...

Actionb

I'm certain pre-scanning will come back anyhow. Pre-scanning has been in the game for so long, I dont even remember the game without it and it never was a big issue. The issue is the automatic process of your record getting cloned when it allows Potato McPowerGame to have infinite lives with a priva...

Actionb

This whole conversation is as verbose as silicon policy itself. I guess it's a symptom of people being dumb or assholes No, it almost has to be this way. It's a discussion about a very verbose, complicated thing. So yes, of course you should expect wordy posts. Of course there will be rules-lawyeri...

Actionb

Is the whole money thing even possible? Isn't your cash bound to the ID card and not your mind?
How are you going to pay for cloning if you're dead and your ID was stolen?

Actionb

I actually face palmed. >where did you get the one rule idea from You. If you only had one short and simple rule, there wouldn't much point in lawyering, right? So the more verbose rules you have, the more lawyering you can get. That was an https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/illust...

Actionb

... then they'd get banned by admins, then they'd spout off a series of whiny ban appeals/policy threads wherein the headmins would basically say what the old silicon policy said, then we'd be right here again, except the silicons section of headmin rulings would be like 5x as long. No need to rein...

Actionb

They are either too vague and need to be spelled out more or they are too verbose, and need to be trimmed down. I would prefer we stick to the latter. Keep in mind that some policies may just be there because some line-toeing shitter forced the admins to establish it... to make it 'written in stone...

Actionb

can you state the actual problem you have with the current rules in concise language? - silicon policies read like a law book: great for people that get a spergasm out of it, bad for pretty much everyone else: 1 , 2 - the wiki page as it's currently is requires formatting to really make sense: 1 - ...

Actionb

... of course I'm not going to pay much attention to the point... Yeah, that's a good indication we should not take this exchange between us any further. If neither side is paying attention to the argument, there won't be satisfying conclusions. Let's just say, we both have different opinions: Your...

Actionb

>implying the only reason upload access would be denied is silicon policy >and not just law 1 > gets caught up on the whole upload thing > totally misses the point > implies implications the author didnt make You're not even trying man. Let's try this then: Self-harm-based coercion is a violation o...

Actionb

it's just like high school prom all over again

So ERP is allowed?

Actionb

Remember that there's two parties that are very vocal about this: - silicon lovers - silicon haters We cannot ignore remarks/complaints of either of them though. Both parties had a hand in making the policies. Always evaluate if they, from their point of view, make a valid point - that is then somet...

Actionb

WarbossLincoln wrote:Or just keep the laws, let common sense prevail, and job ban people who are too autistic to handle it.

I'd be all for it. But if it worked, we wouldn't have a need for policies.

Actionb

The default setup filters out separate channels so that servers (not in the linked picture) can record down what's said on each comms' frequency. The big rectangle of confusion in the middle of t-comms allows for relays on other z-levels to be linked to it. So for all the complication, the default ...

Actionb

Is Silicon Policy the problem? Or is it Asimov that's preventing the captain from getting into the ai upload at round start? I think it's both. AI laws are exploitable and the policies try to monkeypatch that. Thing is: they are exploitable for a reason. But the reason does not seem to apply well i...

Actionb

Started up my professional diagramming software to visualize one of the main issues I have with silicon policy. Be warned though, it may be difficult to understand without knowledge of the LePUS3 object-oriented modeling language. Current state as I see it: https://imgur.com/QtgvrJl The state I woul...

Actionb

Letting a non-atmos tech into atmospherics to stop a flood with manual valves or something is nothing whatsoever like letting an assistant into the armory to change a lightbulb. That's the kind of rules lawyering that causes our silicon policy to be pages long. You are aware I want to do away with ...

Actionb

Lumbermancer wrote:
Actionb wrote:My point is: no OOC policy must override IC AI law.
Then you must write, or use another lawset, because Asimov is exploitable by design.

Exactly my point. Fuck I wish my brain would shut up sometimes so I can express the essence of my agenda.

Actionb

1: use common sense, the armory has weapons and greyshirts frequently target it, plus a broken lightbulb isn't a real problem Jesus man, reading comprehension. It's not about the light bulb. WarbossLincoln's proposal had these two statements: - You are only allowed to deny access to an area when th...

Actionb

If you want to address 'access' in the core of the AI laws. Wouldn't it be better to define the AI obeying commands based on the rank of the person asking? So you could reword the second law to state: 'A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings based on the station's chain of command, exc...

Actionb

>The AI doesn't give a shit about access levels. Except it does, because of the policy. Silicon policy is basically law 0 You do not seem to be following. Forget about the policies for a second. The default asimov laws do not give any reason to care about access, unless it's about opening, figurati...

Actionb

MY POINT: no OOC policy must override IC AI law. Guidelines and suggestions on how to interpret the laws are great. Rules that override the laws are bad. You should be able to: - induce your lawset from the policies (policy confirming, not contradicting, aspects of your lawset) - deduce policies fr...

Actionb

Anything else falls under Law 1. Except, that it doesn't. CE doesn't get access to upload. You can deny entry. I can only assume you haven't read my post or I am so bad at getting my point across... Asimov law: You cannot pull the law 1 card and thus must allow access. <--- !!! ---> Policies: You c...

Actionb

Shameless plug: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 29#p457529

Actionb

Anything else falls under Law 1. Except, that it doesn't. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. - CE is requesting access to the upload - no violation of law 1: you are not actively harming the CE or any other human by granting access unless...

Actionb

You lot are so good at making sweeping statements, you should call yourselves the janitors of debates.

Actionb

iamgoofball wrote:
BeeSting12 wrote:tl;dr please?
you know, there's a point to be made that once we're to 4 subsections of silicon policy and people need a tldr for basic shit about it, that silicon policy is too long

just saying

Actionb

blocked from using service = good erased from history 1984-style = bad It doesn't even say "banned" or "deleted" it just shows a 404 This includes all PRs and issues made by the banned account Git != Github. The commits are still all there: Economy history You can search for goo...

Actionb

I ded, turret blind spot:

Actionb

The github ToS basically reads like 'Dont be a dick'. What's there to argue about? here's a novel idea: what if we just gave people the ability to administrate their own repositories, going so far as to even give them the ability to block them if they don't want them around have the people self mod...

Actionb

I'm sorry for the walls of text, I felt like I needed to address all of my points, rather than cover 50% of them and leaving most of my concerns unaddressed. (and thus would need to address those points in the comments anyways). No need to apologize for articulating your opinion. Reading isn't hard...

Actionb

iksyp wrote:>goof was going against the tos so there should be no argument in his defense
the argument is against the tos not against goof's ban being valid or not wetods

The github ToS basically reads like 'Dont be a dick'. What's there to argue about?

Actionb

Yeah uhm... I appreciate your dedication with all these detailed posts... but it's exactly this the amount of detail that should raise a red flag. Silicon policy shouldn't read like a law book. It's not the constitution of a western country. It's SS13, not DnD. If anything we need less words and les...

Actionb

... is part of the trend of corporations turning away from common sense and towards politics. On one hand, the reality is that corporate censorship like this does help with good PR, one the other hand Code of Conducts are used for sniping people who disagree with your side. This has nothing to do w...

Actionb

Actual coding makes up like 10% of the work a programmer. Nobody will care if you emphasise that you have been coding in language 'XY' for 'Z' years. In a sense you can be glad your github account was flagged just as you were sending out applications; your would-be-employers would have come across t...

Actionb

A major point of removing the access to drone shells was (quoting from the PR ): the role is designed for a higher standard of play than everything else. Admins are unable to enforce that consistently and miss bad behaviour. 'Higher standard of play' means: - understanding when it's okay to impact t...

Actionb

Admins can still make you a drone, right?

Actionb

Just throwing this into the room: Maybe the (loyal) crew isn't capable of dealing with the threats that present themselves in a round? Be it due to convoluted mechanics (holy water vs cult), insufficient numbers (gang), simple incompetence/unwillingness (engis not fixing stuff) or due to there being...

Actionb

Not even two months ago: Making Gang Great Again?!

Actionb

tl;dr - rounds are too short for science's best toys, fix now plz. Play RD, recall the shuttle if you think it isn't necessary to evac. Most heads just don't give a fuck about the shuttle coming too early. Why would they? They're not payed per hour (or at all..). Also: science is even faster than b...

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