Tabling

[Amelius]

Why was this silently nerfed? The stun lasts a second or so now, you can't, or can barely strip even a single item now before they get up. It's former rendition wasn't bullshit, took skill, had easy counterplay (disarm, move away, or resist), and added value. It gave a way for prisoners, unarmed folks, and so forth to defeat well-armed folks with skill instead of RNG disarm, so why take that away?

Now it takes almost as long to chain table stun as it does for them to get up, so you can't even strip them, let alone beat them to death. How useful! Folks asked for more lethality and yet we keep making hugbo x changes to things that ARE balanced for no reason, silently. I'm really fucking close to just writing /tg/station off because this is getting ridiculous and I've been having less and less fun with every subsequent change for the past year or two.

[TheNightingale]

It's because tabling people isn't supposed to be a chainstun-toolbox thing. It's just supposed to plant them on a table, it's a better version of a disarm.

[Amelius]

It's because tabling people isn't supposed to be a chainstun-toolbox thing. It's just supposed to plant them on a table, it's a better version of a disarm.

Isn't supposed to be according to whom? You? As-is it's now a shitty version of disarm because it can be resisted / countered in so many different ways, that using it instead of disarm for anyone that you want to 'disarm' is ridiculously stupid.

You have to manage to hit them, AND stay adjacent to them for a longish period, more than enough for them to whack you, with a magical slowdown on top. It's not easy to table someone in the first place.

Can't even do the old classic table -> strip headset -> table -> cuff any more. Another shit change in a long line of shit changes. This is just the shit cherry on top of a massive shitty sundae that's run my down patience with this server's coding community to it's last iota.

[Scott]

Muh tabling grief

[Scones]

I think I was about done with tabling after a barfight that lasted roughly ten minutes where I just chaintabled multiple people

It was hilarious but I should not be able to do that

How was this a "silent" change?

[Amelius]

Muh tabling grief

> Implying tabling doesn't have extremely legitimate uses and robust unarmed antags/perma'd prisoners are 100% reliant on it to robust anything.

I mean come on, the old table -> remove headset is as old as the server itself, and you can't even do that any more. Hell, you can't do alot of things any more because of 'balance/RP/immershion problems', even if there weren't any of those for years and they were enjoyed as viable mechanics. It's sapped all the life and flavour out of the game, and all that's left is a dry, boring husk of what once was. I've never been so disappointed in this server as I have been over the past year, I used to love it to death and now it's almost trash.

How was this a "silent" change?

Not in the changelog. No forum posts on it. No discussion.

[onleavedontatme]

I should not be able to do that

If you take each individual attack/item on its own they look pretty stupid, but once you address each of them individually you stand back and realize nothing is fucking happening in the rounds because everything got nerfed.

I'd rather get tabled and beat to death than go afk after an hour of nothing.

[MMMiracles]

I've yet to see a decent reason why being able to spam x/pgup on someone next to a table should give you the ability to chain-stun them, leaving you solely to their mercy. In real life, it makes no fucking sense why someone would have such a hard time just GETTING UP after being shoved onto a table. In game sense, its unbalanced as fuck by the fact anyone who isn't intently staring at the chat box near a table is going to be chain-stunned and there's absolutely nothing they can do to stop it.

More of a fact 'waah my unbalanced game mechanic is finally get nerfed to a more sensible manner how am i suppose to cheese people now??'.

Git gud scrublord, there's all kinds of ways to stun people long enough for cuffs/removal of headset.

[Saegrimr]

Not in the changelog. No forum posts on it. No discussion.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10592

Yeah man its almost like there wasn't a pull request about it. Those sneaky invisible pull requests!

[onleavedontatme]

Not in the changelog. No forum posts on it. No discussion.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10592

Yeah man its almost like there wasn't a pull request about it. Those sneaky invisible pull requests!

To be fair there are like 70 pull requests merged a week you can't expect people to read ever single one. A changelog at least would be nice.

[Saegrimr]

Not in the changelog. No forum posts on it. No discussion.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10592

Yeah man its almost like there wasn't a pull request about it. Those sneaky invisible pull requests!

To be fair there are like 70 pull requests merged a week you can't expect people to read ever single one. A changelog at least would be nice.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-statio ... s%3Amerged

~7 days of merges in 25 posts

[onleavedontatme]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pulse/monthly

Am I reading this wrong then? It says we had 288 pull requests merged in the past 30 days.

[Saegrimr]

Apparently I fucked up and have been reading merges sorted in a stupid way.

[Falamazeer]

Thank fucking space jesus.
Even though I abuse it, tabling is, and has always been bullshit.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Tabling is pretty shit yo.
But you should be able to at least remove headsets with it, even if you can't chainstun/cuff without another guy's help

[Oldman Robustin]

I should not be able to do that

If you take each individual attack/item on its own they look pretty stupid, but once you address each of them individually you stand back and realize nothing is fucking happening in the rounds because everything got nerfed.

I'd rather get tabled and beat to death than go afk after an hour of nothing.

THIS GUY GETS IT.

Tabling is right back to useless status now, if I'm fighting someone and they're holding something I need to disarm, ill take my chances with disarm RNG over doing the grab-a-thon.

Between that and that attempt to nerf screwdriver, I really wonder what some people have as vision for combat in SS13.

[Scott]

Considering it's not even a weapon you have to hold and risk losing, the table stun was OP. Deal with it.

[rockpecker]

Between that and that attempt to nerf screwdriver, I really wonder what some people have as vision for combat in SS13.

Alice punches Bob. Bob yells "AI HUMAN HARM", the AI player pushes a button, and Alice gets flash-frozen in a block of ice for the rest of the round. Then they come to the forum and argue about who should get banned.

[Takeguru]

I'm not a fan of the less lethal direction we seem to be heading in.

One hit taking you out of the round forever, a la old para shouldn't happen, but this is nonsense.

Tabling might have been too easy to do, but not even being able to strip headsets any more has made it useless.

[Cik]

preconditions to tabling

you have to be near a table
the target has to be distracted, busy or just slow

you can feasibly set up a kill

if you can't even strip the headset what's the point? stuns become useless the instant they fall below this threshold; without being able to strip the headset off a soloantag is toasted; if they get off a help scream you have about 20 seconds before the sec/asimov anti-fun patrol comes and (just) fucks your shit up.

though i have been schooled many times by tabling it never bothered me. it's not exactly easy to set up, it's not applicable in a large part of the station, and it's the only use grab ever sees. why nerf it?

[CPTANT]

The solution to all of this is to make weapons more deadly.

Pistols, lasers, ewsords should all do more damage so they are actually worth it over just applying a stun and cuffs.

[onleavedontatme]

The solution to all of this is to make weapons more deadly.

Pistols, lasers, ewsords should all do more damage so they are actually worth it over just applying a stun and cuffs.

That was part of making armor weaker, so those raw damage weapons are slightly more attractive, but as far as I'm aware you hate that change.

To make them actually stronger than stun+cuff they'd have to kill people in literally one hit though, which would be terrible. At least stun+cuff gives you time to shout.

[Amnestik]

Why was this silently nerfed?

There's actually a changelog entry for it, though I'm not sure if it was added before or after this thread was made.

In saying that, there probably should've been a player feedback thread made before this was pulled. It seems to be the done thing with most controversial changes nowadays. Expecting people to religiously check the Github to attempt to police how the game is going to be ruined for them this week isn't reasonable. Controversial changes should be brought to player attention so that they can be discussed by the people they most affect.

Despite that though, I have to say that tabling was pretty bullshit. All it took was a lucky disarm, a nearby table and the spamming of the Z key (or Pg Down if you're gay) to ruin some unlucky player's round, be they an antag, antag victim, or victim of retribution. It needed to be nerfed when the other stuns were nerfed (just like banana peels did...) so the stun duration remained relative to other stuns.

I can't tell yet if the nerf was overkill or not. It'd be interesting to compare pre-stun nerf table length's relative to other stuns with its current relativity. I'm too lazy to, though. It's not a true nerf if the relative length stays the same. It's just an update. I don't think that was even considered in the nerf though.

Edit: I didn't read this thread at all, because fuck the police, so if I'm just repeating shit that's already been said, then my bad.

[Saegrimr]

The changelog does tend to take a day or so after merges, depends on who is looking at it.

[Oldman Robustin]

The solution to all of this is to make weapons more deadly.

Pistols, lasers, ewsords should all do more damage so they are actually worth it over just applying a stun and cuffs.

That was part of making armor weaker, so those raw damage weapons are slightly more attractive, but as far as I'm aware you hate that change.

To make them actually stronger than stun+cuff they'd have to kill people in literally one hit though, which would be terrible. At least stun+cuff gives you time to shout.

Give traitors 30 TC. It's a simple fucking solution to put traitors at least at parity with security. Increase syndiebombs to 16TC and give them the new maxcap power too.

Boom, traitors are actually interesting motherfuckers again.

[onleavedontatme]

The solution to all of this is to make weapons more deadly.

Pistols, lasers, ewsords should all do more damage so they are actually worth it over just applying a stun and cuffs.

That was part of making armor weaker, so those raw damage weapons are slightly more attractive, but as far as I'm aware you hate that change.

To make them actually stronger than stun+cuff they'd have to kill people in literally one hit though, which would be terrible. At least stun+cuff gives you time to shout.

Give traitors 30 TC. It's a simple fucking solution to put traitors at least at parity with security. Increase syndiebombs to 16TC and give them the new maxcap power too.

Boom, traitors are actually interesting motherfuckers again.

Buying adrenal+esword+revolver and going apeshit every round wouldn't really be interesting.

Unstunnable murderboner isn't much better than falling asleep.

[Oldman Robustin]

Buying adrenal+esword+revolver and going apeshit every round wouldn't really be interesting.

Unstunnable murderboner isn't much better than falling asleep.

Oh cmon you gotta at least give me a plausible OP scenario. Revolver + esword + adrenal is functionally identical to revolver+adrenal and that's still a pretty mediocre setup since both have very limited use and that's possible with 20 TC's right now. Esword is just if you want to get a ruse kill on someone off by themselves, its not a very serious traitor weapon.

I just realized I need to petition for the "universal silencer" to apply to eswords now though (the giant FWOOM and BZZZT noises are one of the reasons eswords are a fucking joke).

[Luke Cox]

Buying adrenal+esword+revolver and going apeshit every round wouldn't really be interesting.

Unstunnable murderboner isn't much better than falling asleep.

Oh cmon you gotta at least give me a plausible OP scenario. Revolver + esword + adrenal is functionally identical to revolver+adrenal and that's still a pretty mediocre setup since both have very limited use and that's possible with 20 TC's right now. Esword is just if you want to get a ruse kill on someone off by themselves, its not a very serious traitor weapon.

I just realized I need to petition for the "universal silencer" to apply to eswords now though (the giant FWOOM and BZZZT noises are one of the reasons eswords are a fucking joke).

Say what you will about plain esword, but dual esword is no joke. Regular esword is good as a means of killing an isolated target without leaving any evidence like shell casings. Dual esword plus a ranged backup weapon in case they break out stun batons if fucking scary.

[Steelpoint]

I would put up a TC buff but I'm sure it will be closed.

[MisterPerson]

This is a thread about tabling. Unless tabling nerfs are the cause of traitors being weak, I would suggest taking that discussion to another thread.