Give traitors 25-30TC, Syndiebombs 13-16TC

[CPTANT]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Plan TC price adjustments instead of adding more TC.

No. The relative price of most items is fine (with exceptions). Traitors are too weak in general (at least their tools are). Increasing TC count remedies this.

Somehow people think this will lead to one traitor murderboning the entire station every round. nuke ops get more gear, are a coordinated team of 5 and regularly get dunked by a clown with a banana.

[Gun Hog]

Add more traitors, adjust the coeff! This is a configuration option, and does not require coders.

By the way, you do not need to learn camera wires any more, as they were removed. Screwdriver + wirecutters will break a camera, silently. Use a multitool instead to disable the focus, which means has minimum range - this means that no nearby crew will suspect a problem, only the AI if it is looking. Only smashing a camera will trigger the alarm. Also, EMP will silently disable cameras for 90 seconds, and post an alarm after coming back online. You do not actually need any Traitor items to blind the AI if you plan a little first - which is something we should actively encourage instead of making everything E-Z mode.

[John_Oxford]

The orginal concept for syndicate factions was that traitors we're given a randomly selected faction at round start.
Suiciding, because you didn't get a combat heavy faction (See: Gorlax Marauders) would be a bannable offense.

As far as i know, no one has made super specific TC cost charts for each of the syndicate factions.
As far as i also know, the idea never was moved into a PR, but simply just discussed on the fourms by me and several others.

I'l make a complete TC chart if the majority of people think its a good idea.
Otherwise, i'm just wasting my time.

[Scott]

It's more complicated than "just code it". Gamemode code / antag code is spaghetti, nobody really wants to touch it.

Incoming was working on an antag datum thing, if he ever finishes it it's possible that the code will be organized enough to be expanded on.

Plan TC price adjustments instead of adding more TC.

Love to mate but my attempts to do so on IRC got me banned.

In addition we've already examined the implications of the TC increase, the whole idea is not to change individual items but to simply give traitors more options and the capability to buy more items.

Finally, you demand we make plans, yet I approach people on IRC about said plans and I get banned and my PR closed because of that. Explain to me why I should make the effort to make plans when the powers that be don't care if I do or don't have a plan and shut down all argumentation on git with the sole excuse that I once made a similar attempt a few months ago.

Other people are not obligated to care about your ideas until you open a PR with solidified thinking behind it and then everybody who cares can discuss it. If they discuss it in IRC, great, if not, do your best to come up with something and then open a PR.

You didn't get banned for trying to discuss changes.

[Oldman Robustin]

This is pretty much my last ditch effort to actually get real change going in the game's balance.

There's plenty of great ideas in this forum, but if we can't even get a serious discussion about an extremely simple but significant change, what hope does anything else discussed here have?

Why are any of us here except for providing the 2-3 coders who actually work off player feedback with information. Just depressing seeing how this forum is the greatest source of high-quality feedback and input into the game's balance and most coders don't post here or even read this shit unless they're coming to tell us why we're wrong and their 2 hours of play per month has given them superior insight into what the game really needs.

Cheridan has done everything in his power to indicate that player feedback has no place in coderbus and his beliefs are not only superior than ours, but we aren't even worth the time/trouble of being given a voice on Github if it's something he disagrees with. If this change couldn't be treated seriously, there's really no hope for anything else that doesn't jive with Cheridan's myopic view of how this game works.

[Scott]

This is pretty much my last ditch effort to actually get real change going in the game's balance.

There's plenty of great ideas in this forum, but if we can't even get a serious discussion about an extremely simple but significant change, what hope does anything else discussed here have?

Why are any of us here except for providing the 2-3 coders who actually work off player feedback with information. Just depressing seeing how this forum is the greatest source of high-quality feedback and input into the game's balance and most coders don't post here or even read this shit unless they're coming to tell us why we're wrong and their 2 hours of play per month has given them superior insight into what the game really needs.

Cheridan has done everything in his power to indicate that player feedback has no place in coderbus and his beliefs are not only superior than ours, but we aren't even worth the time/trouble of being given a voice on Github if it's something he disagrees with. If this change couldn't be treated seriously, there's really no hope for anything else that doesn't jive with Cheridan's myopic view of how this game works.

You're painting it like coderbus is some sort of exclusive club that will promptly boot the players out if they make too much noise. It really depends on the noise, and that privilege is not reserved for just the players. Don't use the 30TC PR as an argument, because it being closed was perfectly valid (headcoder, duplicate rejected PR), and Steelpoint ?drama? Cheridan which is what got him booted. You don't get banned for having a shitty idea.

One thing you have to keep in mind always when exposing your ideas, is that nobody here is forced to do anything. You are encouraged to expose your ideas, but even more encouraged to code them yourself. If you need help coding, you ask in coderbus and people will help you. Nothing gets done without coders and all coders come from the playerbase.

[Amelius]

(headcoder, duplicate rejected PR)

The rejected PR in question was a major 40 TC buff proposed a year or so ago. Since then traitors have been further declawed and security further buffed. How is a slighter buff not relevant?

[quote="Scott]You are encouraged to expose your ideas, but even more encouraged to code them yourself. If you need help coding, you ask in coderbus and people will help you. Nothing gets done without coders and all coders come from the playerbase.[/quote]

'Come contribute, try to improve a crumbling codebase with a tyrannical headcoder that is devoted to driving the server into the ground, acts like a child when he doesn't get his way, shuts down discussion in contested PRs, ignores player feedback and opinion, no matter how onesided, and has never noticably changed positions on an issue in feedback mid-discussion.' (see nuke op implant thread, for a recent instance).

Great idea. I personally can code and in fact do it for a living, but why the fuck should I try to 'fix' this monstrosity when needed fixes and balance patches will not even be entertained, and if I were to try to improve the server based on public opinion, I'd be banned from IRC and git for not following the headcoder's mystical vision (following which, has served only to make almost everything markedly worse from a couple years ago). I have better things to do than to try to shit gold and make this server glimmer once more, while someone shovels shit on top of it.

[Steelpoint]

(headcoder, duplicate rejected PR)

The rejected PR in question was a major 40 TC buff proposed a year or so ago. Since then traitors have been further declawed and security further buffed. How is a slighter buff not relevant?

It was actually a month ago.

Also Scott's somewhat correct, you don't get banned for having shitty ideas you just get banned for disagreeing with the main headcoder.

[Amelius]

(headcoder, duplicate rejected PR)

The rejected PR in question was a major 40 TC buff proposed a year or so ago. Since then traitors have been further declawed and security further buffed. How is a slighter buff not relevant?

It was actually a month ago.

My mistake. However, the rest of the points still stands, and the reason for closing the PR was:

We don't need sweeping changes to what people often refer to as our only good game mode.

> Traitor.
> Only good game mode.

You mean extended: greytide edition?

[ChangelingRain]

It got rejected because it can cause things that you might not want to show up; why not just reduce the costs of stuff you want to show up more instead?

[Scott]

You are encouraged to expose your ideas, but even more encouraged to code them yourself. If you need help coding, you ask in coderbus and people will help you. Nothing gets done without coders and all coders come from the playerbase.

'Come contribute, try to improve a crumbling codebase with a tyrannical headcoder that is devoted to driving the server into the ground, acts like a child when he doesn't get his way, shuts down discussion in contested PRs, ignores player feedback and opinion, no matter how onesided, and has never noticably changed positions on an issue in feedback mid-discussion.' (see nuke op implant thread, for a recent instance).

Great idea. I personally can code and in fact do it for a living, but why the fuck should I try to 'fix' this monstrosity when needed fixes and balance patches will not even be entertained, and if I were to try to improve the server based on public opinion, I'd be banned from IRC and git for not following the headcoder's mystical vision (following which, has served only to make almost everything markedly worse from a couple years ago). I have better things to do than to try to shit gold and make this server glimmer once more, while someone shovels shit on top of it.

Headcoders exist to, among other things, direct the game's design and development. It's important for that position to exist. They don't even impose a strict direction, you rarely see a headcoder shutting down a PR for game design reasons. You can't use that as an excuse to not contribute. Also nobody expects you to fix any monstrosity, you can start small and tackle bigger challenges as you learn more about the code and DM.

And nobody ever got banned from IRC for disagreements or for trying to code something the community wants.

[Steelpoint]

And nobody ever got banned from IRC for disagreements or for trying to code something the community wants.

I did.

[Gun Hog]

And nobody ever got banned from IRC for disagreements or for trying to code something the community wants.

I did.

I am the one that kept prodding him to get into the IRC for discussing his changes. I feel bad now...

[Oldman Robustin]

It got rejected because it can cause things that you might not want to show up; why not just reduce the costs of stuff you want to show up more instead?

1) It's more complicated to add

2) People will fucking nitpick it to death. WHY IS X NOW CHEAPER THAN Y, X IS ALREADY BETTER MAKE Y CHEAPER. This maintains the relative "value" of traitor items to one another without having to get into another shitshow about whether thermals should cost less than EMP kits or some shit.

3) I'd rather traitors demonstrate what new combos are effective, and if anything might be broken. I know I've played traitor more than anyone on coderbus, but even I don't trust my ability to accurately deciper what discounts traitors need to make an impact again.


Edit: Bonus Point #4 = We already have FIFTY TC crates that can easily yield 30TC worth of high-power items. I have never, ever seen a round where having a good crate drop let someone become game-breakingly strong. I know what kind of power 30TC gives you, and there just isn't enough synergy there. I know if I had an extra 10TC it would almost always just give me an emag or adrenal implant on to of what I had before with the remaining points going for something marginal like noslips or extra c4. Only adrenals push traitors toward a higher-tier of antagonist but they are limited use and are still generally <50% chance of actually letting you win a fight you otherwise lost. Getting bolted into atmos after killing your target and having adrenals is really not going to help... you'll break the first stun but with multiple sec responding and the AI closing every escape route, you're just delaying the inevitable.

[Screemonster]

Make traitor TCs and item costs a config option for server hosts and admins so it's no longer the coders' responsibility. Game balance issues like traitor TCs are a thing that should be in the hands of the game admins, not for coders to unilaterally decide without any reference to what's needed.

It's not like a game admin couldn't just manually give every traitor 10 extra TCs every round if they felt like it would make things more interesting.

[Steelpoint]

That would require a PR to set up to give the admins that power, hence its still something that the sole headcoder can block.

[TheNightingale]

Can't admins do that already through the traitor panel?

[Steelpoint]

Admins can manually assign telecrystals to individual traitors, but that would require the admins to agree to work togther and assign a preset value of TC's to each individual traitor every round.

Not very intuitive.

[Screemonster]

That would require a PR to set up to give the admins that power, hence its still something that the sole headcoder can block.

If Cheridan blocks that, it'll be pretty hard for him to come up with a justification besides "I know better than everyone else, nyah nyah".

[Oldman Robustin]

Please stop dragging the silicons into this.
- you can smash cameras
- 1tc toolbox
- 1tc AI detector
- 3tc for being untrackable
- EMP kit royally fucks any cyborg (and headsets to counter "AI HALP")
- turning off lights can be suprisingly effective
- spend 1 minute at round start to find wires, doesn't even need insuls
If you believe the AI is going to be a threat to your plans, gear accordingly. And no, that doesn't mean you have to purchase all of the above items. Use your brain and skills.
With that in mind, an increase to the TC would give traitors a lot more needed flexibility, if the AI turns out to be VALIDYELLER 9000.

This cycle of nerfs needs to stop. Nerfing everything instead of buffing the cause of a problem is the wrong way to go...
Yelling 'REMOVE SECBORGS' is just that. Malf/Traitor AI/Traitor Roboticist without secborgs: kickin' rad place to be (<- you fiends..) . By removing secborgs or nerfing the AI, you would be removing threats to yourself should you be antag. Defanging security in any way whatsoever just to be on par with your common antag once again, is also removing threats.
And guess what! Not feeling threatened is one of the biggest complaints in the community right now.

Let traitors have more syndicate tools than emag + revolver + soap by increasing the TC amount. If it turns out to be a horrible idea, we get a few days of hillarity and then revert it.

I agree that this should be focused on improving traitors, we've made "AI NURF" threads before, most people supported it, but as long as Cheridan has the power and attitude that he does I'm not even going to bother talking about it.

I think your conclusions on AI counters are not very accurate though, but that's for another thread.

We both agree traitors need more, let's keep that the discussion here.

Well that and Steelpoint, what exactly was the grounds for banning you from coderbus anyway?

[Steelpoint]

According to Cheridan I was banned for being a disruptive influence who is unable and unwilling to work in a team based environment.

Personally I was banned because I held a dissenting opinion towards Cheridan and I was asking him hard questions on the coderbus IRC about recent PR's and events.

Making assumptions I will assume he banned me so as to not have to tolerate my presence on the coderbus IRC nor to ensure I don't present any more PR's to the codebase.

[Oldman Robustin]

According to Cheridan I was banned for being a disruptive influence who is unable and unwilling to work in a team based environment.

Personally I was banned because I held a dissenting opinion towards Cheridan and I was asking him hard questions on the coderbus IRC about recent PR's and events.

Making assumptions I will assume he banned me so as to not have to tolerate my presence on the coderbus IRC nor to ensure I don't present any more PR's to the codebase.

Unbelievable. We have so much accountability and transparency on the admin side of things, its about time someone brings that to coderbus. Yes coders are doing work for free, etc, etc. but so are admins and there's a growing agreement that the former has just as much of an impact on our experience here as the latter. It's just not appropriate to continue letting coderbus be the lawless "I DO WHAT I WANT" wild lands. But that's for the other thread, that (for some incoherent reason) has been moved here.

The "Remove HG" thread apparently belongs in General and not Admin Feedback/Admin Complaints but the "Coderbus needs reforms/Cheridan is out of line" somehow belongs in the game feedback forum?!

[Ergovisavi]

Aimless off topic rambling aside...

I'm all for someone editing the amount of TC's if they go in and inspect the TC cost of every single item in order to ensure that nothing falls off the map and/or creates new issues, and if you want to do it so bad Oldman, do it yourself.

A blanket increase is just a headache, and using the justification of "Oh we can just back it out later" isn't going to fly. Yes, on paper, we can just back it out.

But it doesn't really work that way. You know it. Get it in, and spend the damn time to make sure it's good, instead of relying on "OH WE CAN JUST BACK IT OUT". Or hell, change the TC amount to a config.

[Oldman Robustin]

Aimless off topic rambling aside...

I'm all for someone editing the amount of TC's if they go in and inspect the TC cost of every single item in order to ensure that nothing falls off the map and/or creates new issues, and if you want to do it so bad Oldman, do it yourself.

A blanket increase is just a headache, and using the justification of "Oh we can just back it out later" isn't going to fly. Yes, on paper, we can just back it out.

But it doesn't really work that way. You know it. Get it in, and spend the damn time to make sure it's good, instead of relying on "OH WE CAN JUST BACK IT OUT". Or hell, change the TC amount to a config.

I already laid out 90% of it in the OP. I'll update and revise it though.

Increase TC to 30.
Syndiebombs to 16TC.
Balloon to 30TC.
Syndiekit to 30TC., instead of trying to update every specialized loadout (most are destined to be bad anyway), just keep it at the current cost with the current output. At least now you can round out your terrible disguise kit with an actual weapon.
Syndiecrate to 30TC. Still a bargain to get 50TC worth of items, but at least now traitors wont feel compelled to get le randumb crate just for the chance to be robust.
Uplink Implant to 30TC, Grants 15TC.


Beacon to 24TC.
Powersink to 20TC.
Hacked Module to 24TC.

These are all very powerful items that will define whatever round they're used in. I could have simply scaled up their cost as a % of total TC but I opted to simply increase the cost to leave the same amount of free TC to be 100% sure nobody is offended by a powersinker who gets an thermals AND stetchkin.

That's it. If people decide that gun+implant+emag IS JUST TOO INSANE then that can happen down the road, I'm absolutely not convinced that anything after this change will be remotely close to "broken" level of robustness. Only other balance related issue I could foresee is emags becoming the "default" addition to every loadout that traitors take (the ones that didnt already rely on emags at least) and people complaining about every traitor round resulting in half the doors being broken and APC's hacked. No individual loadout would be "OP" but the cumulative effect of more emags might be an issue. But with traitor rates reduced and emagged doors being repairable (plus RCD's are stupidly cheap to make/use now) I don't think it's worth messing with until we see the results.

Done.

[Bombadil]

Powersinks are easily destroyed

[Oldman Robustin]

Powersinks are easily destroyed

I agree but I'm keeping this proposal conservative. Putting it at 20TC would keep all powersink combos in line with what's available now. That way there's absolutely no room for *certain people* to argue that everyone will spend their new 10TC on powersinks and the station will literally never have power again, etc...

[Amelius]

The "Remove HG" thread apparently belongs in General and not Admin Feedback/Admin Complaints but the "Coderbus needs reforms/Cheridan is out of line" somehow belongs in the game feedback forum?!

The 'feedback' forum is lesser known by it's other name - the 'quarantine' forum. All the bitching and so forth all gathered in one place just so that they don't have to listen to it and can easily, and safely ignore it.

Spills into the game? Mute OOC, pretend nothing happened, carry on 20 minutes later like nothing happened.

Seriously, this is an act of futility. We talk here, but nothing happens, no admin or person with power even entertains our thoughts, no matter how well-thought, and nothing will change without impetus to do so. Now, the question is how to generate that impetus?

[Scott]

When was the last time that happened?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Increase TC to 30.
Syndiebombs to 16TC.
Balloon to 30TC.
Syndiekit to 30TC., instead of trying to update every specialized loadout (most are destined to be bad anyway), just keep it at the current cost with the current output. At least now you can round out your terrible disguise kit with an actual weapon.
Syndiecrate to 30TC. Still a bargain to get 50TC worth of items, but at least now traitors wont feel compelled to get le randumb crate just for the chance to be robust.
Uplink Implant to 30TC, Grants 15TC.

Uplink Implant to 30TC, Grants 15TC.

I JUUUUST BUFFED THAT MAAAN!


Jokes aside, I'm currently nerfingitsnerfing,notcutting,becausei'mincoderbusandcoderbusonlynerfthings the price of all the cool sneaky bits 'n' bobs. Like, why was the chameleon jumpsuit 4TC? It's terrible, why?!

[DemonFiren]

Because the chameleon jumpsuit is, indeed, terrible. Useless, I'd even say.

[Oldman Robustin]

If Agent ID cards were rewritable, cham. jumpsuits would have a purpose. Right now they'd be a lot better on lings.

Is there any reason Agent ID cards AREN'T rewritable?

[Amelius]

If Agent ID cards were rewritable, cham. jumpsuits would have a purpose. Right now they'd be a lot better on lings.

Is there any reason Agent ID cards AREN'T rewritable?

I'd probably actually buy an Agent ID sometimes if it was rewriteable.