Less talk more action on Synthetics, aka FUCK THE AI thread

[Cik]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Rather than removing one of the most unique roles in the game I'd rather try a week or two of traitorsec again.

I understand security needs to trust each other and work as a team in modes like nuke, rev, gang, etc, but traitor should be all about backstabbing and paranoia, not about the validhunting team vs the woefully underequipped spies.

this was really never a good idea. it will just encourage greytide and related shenanigans; even when you can (mostly) implicitly trust sec not to kill you it's here now. imagine in the future when any secling/sectator can easily grab people off the street and just kill them in maint. once you bring that back it will be bedlam every round. sec is completely helpless against an internal threat because everything they do relies implicitly on trust. furthermore every nonsec will be kill first ask questions never as any arrest could be a murder in progress.

at that point what's even the point of sec? might as well just do americastation and hand out guns to assistants to enforce their own law. that's basically what traitorsec quickly becomes.

[onleavedontatme]

Rather than removing one of the most unique roles in the game I'd rather try a week or two of traitorsec again.

I understand security needs to trust each other and work as a team in modes like nuke, rev, gang, etc, but traitor should be all about backstabbing and paranoia, not about the validhunting team vs the woefully underequipped spies.

this was really never a good idea. it will just encourage greytide and related shenanigans; even when you can (mostly) implicitly trust sec not to kill you it's here now. imagine in the future when any secling/sectator can easily grab people off the street and just kill them in maint. once you bring that back it will be bedlam every round. sec is completely helpless against an internal threat because everything they do relies implicitly on trust. furthermore every nonsec will be kill first ask questions never as any arrest could be a murder in progress.

at that point what's even the point of sec? might as well just do americastation and hand out guns to assistants to enforce their own law. that's basically what traitorsec quickly becomes.

I know exactly how traitorsec plays out. People being unable to trust each other is a design feature, not a flaw.

[Wyzack]

-1 for the return of traitor sec, did not like it and do not want it

[lumipharon]

How would traitor sec address the issue of omnipotent AI?

All traitorsec does is make security a massive pain in the ass, and well less enjoyable - not to mention it gives reason for everyone to shit on security at every possible opportunity, since letting someone quietly arrest you means half the time yu get dragged into maint and murdered/dragged into perma and murdered/etc etc.
There is a reason why greytide, screams of shitcurity, and people fucking with sec in the corridors/stealing prisoners/etc used to be rampant as fuck.

[Celdur]

Getting rid of traitor sec did all of those good things, but I think it also somewhat caused the AI to be as it is now.
Since the AI now has no reason to distrust security, its easy to call on sec to do the AI's bidding.
Couple that with everyone not wanting the AI to say no to anyone, and all it really has to do in a round is hunt down bad guys.

Like Actionb said, I believe AI has less power than people think, the problem here is how the AI spends his time rather than being too powerfull to deal with.
The AI had the ability to bolt people for a long long time, but it hasnt been a problem since fairly recently.
I think the real fix would be some policy changes and giving the AI some stuff to do.
Make it so that the AI can make some of its own choices without having to cave in to demands, as long as it checks out with its lawset.
Make it so he has more ways to help people, to keep him busy.
Because these changes didn't happen from giving the AI more power, it all happened because of a changing mindset.

[Luke Cox]

Focusing on better traitor items to thwart the AI is the most rational approach to this. Lobbing off one of the most complex roles with the most depth because a few people can't git gud is excruciatingly heavy-handed and outright retarded. Each antag type should have tools to thwart the AI in various ways. Here's a breakdown of each antag (except blob) and what they have/need.

Traitor: Wirecutters that can disable cameras without giving the AI a camera alarm. That's the only issue I see. If you're crying about bolted doors buy some goddamn C4 you cheapskates
Cult: Rune that makes all organics in the room invisible to the AI and maybe silicons, for early cult to use. Constructs can already annihilate the AI easily enough
Rev: Considering this antag type has the highest winrate, I don't think much is needed
Gang: Maybe the aforementioned wirecutters. You can just convert somebody that has access to the AI without much effort.
Nuke Ops: Killing the AI is the first order of business for any ops other than stealth ops. Nothing needed here.
Wizard: Stop bitching, you have fucking magic.
Changeling: Plenty of powers already, and you can change your identity instantly.


All in all, I think the issue is horribly overblown. Get creative. I don't consider myself all that robust and AI is never a problem for me.



Also, what if bolting took a few seconds, and the door lights flashed during that time?

[Cheimon]

You can already disable cameras without worrying about the camera alarm, just one screw and one wirecut.

[onleavedontatme]

Because, as others have said, the AI isn't that strong on its own. You can break through windows or doors or whatever.

It's the AI working with security, since they're more or less part of the same department, that is the issue.

>security murdering you, people freaking out

Those are all good things. "Paranoia laden deathtrap" is the description of the game.

[Luke Cox]

Half the people who play AI will also bolt down all of security if anybody screams "harm" while they're being arrested. Asimov is ridiculously traitor-friendly so long as it doesn't catch you killing somebody.

[Falamazeer]

There is a reason why greytide, screams of shitcurity, and people fucking with sec in the corridors/stealing prisoners/etc used to be rampant as fuck.

Used to be.
Hilarious.

[Bombadil]

Ideas to take up AIS time: It can devote processing power to increasing supply points its bitmining.

AI can jump into computers or machinery to boost its power. So maybe jumping into a machine could make it act like its fully upgraded. Can't leave during processes(cloning or if there are chems in someone who is in a sleeper )

[Gun Hog]

Ideas to take up AIS time: It can devote processing power to increasing supply points its bitmining.

AI can jump into computers or machinery to boost its power. So maybe jumping into a machine could make it act like its fully upgraded. Can't leave during processes(cloning or if there are chems in someone who is in a sleeper )

That is interesting, I would find that fun. Stuff such as possessing a floorbot to fix things, or logging into the DNA machine to help genetics find powers faster seems like a fantastic new dimension to AI play!

There are more fun components to being AI rather than just the station's security system. You are also the 'smart' component of the damage control systems (firelocks, air alarms, station bots), tasked with containing fires, maintaining atmosphere, being the doorknob, and most importantly, coordinating the cyborg activity. I could not care less who got murdered in the hall if I did not have a law saying I have to do everything in my power to stop it. (Here is a thought, take out the second part of the first law!)

[Oldman Robustin]

Half the people who play AI will also bolt down all of security if anybody screams "harm" while they're being arrested. Asimov is ridiculously traitor-friendly so long as it doesn't catch you killing somebody.

That literally never happens.

There was an era when this was true, and as someone who played in that era I will still frequently appeal to the AI when I've been harmbatoned, shot by detective, beaten, etc.

The best result I've gotten since I returned is AI just repeating on radio, "Please do not harm prisoners" before promptly forgetting I exist.

Best luck I've had is convincing the AI that sec is going to execute you, but all that gets is the AI keeping your cell bolted in perma.

[Anonmare]

The AI can't release people from perma if they've been placed in there for a violent crime, or they don't know why they've been arrested, under Law 1. But neither can the AI let security execute Human prisoners so bolting a prisoner into their cell is the only reasonable thing an AI can do

[Actionb]

Half the people who play AI will also bolt down all of security if anybody screams "harm" while they're being arrested. Asimov is ridiculously traitor-friendly so long as it doesn't catch you killing somebody.

That literally never happens.

There was an era when this was true, and as someone who played in that era I will still frequently appeal to the AI when I've been harmbatoned, shot by detective, beaten, etc.

The best result I've gotten since I returned is AI just repeating on radio, "Please do not harm prisoners" before promptly forgetting I exist.

Best luck I've had is convincing the AI that sec is going to execute you, but all that gets is the AI keeping your cell bolted in perma.

Locking down security can have severe consequences and achieves very little. Usually, or at least that is what AI players are forced to think, security has only the best interest at heart. Act in good faith and all that jazz. Law 1 does not allow you to pretend that you can peer into the future and determine that security will keep on harming prisoners.
If a prisoner is being killed in perma, you yell about it and maybe bolt down some airlocks. Again, that is all the power at your disposal. Set the harmful officer to arrest and hope the other officers deal with it. If they don't deal with it and order you to unbolt the brig, you have little choice but to follow it unless it is apparent that they are going to harm another human. And don't think a cyborg can just stroll in there and imprison the officer. It will die quickly, as well as the rest of your cyborgs shortly after. People are VERY quick on the 'detonate' button on the robotics console and I wouldn't be suprised if people had a "AI ROGUE" macro running.
Then there's the factor of obstructing security work, enabling possibly harmful antags do go on a rampage during your little, futile bitch fight with security.
If security is going full hitler mode, killing everyone, the situation is so far out of control that you cannot do anything anyway.

I consider myself to be a very neutral AI player and I rarely bolt down security - most of the time it's just not worth the risk and all the moaning from the officers. It does more harm than good. There's very antag friendly AI players too, that will even release perma prisoners on a vague notion of harm. And there's antag hunting AIs that will turn a blind eye as long as it ensures redtext.
As you can see the AI can swing either way, but in the end it's the officers doing the work and the AI has little to no influence over them.
It is easy for a security victim to blame the AI ('They harmed me and you didn't do anything about it!') as a last ditch effort, but the reality is that the AI, at best, is an inconvenience to the sec force.

[Luke Cox]

If you people never encounter this, I truly envy you.


Back on topic, just make bolting a door take 5 seconds. Traitors can get out of the area before they're totally locked down. If that doesn't make things easier, you're just shit.

[Wyzack]

The thing is though that law 1 takes precedence. If you think acting to save that prisoner will get you killed as a borg it is irrelevant. Law one is higher than law three, if you do not act to save him you are in violation of your laws

[JackHunt]

I think distracting the AI is possibly the best option although I worry it's too far. People will already scream "MALF!" if you take too long to do things or get distracted from certain tasks.

[PKPenguin321]

just make bolting a door take 5 seconds. Traitors can get out of the area before they're totally locked down. If that doesn't make things easier, you're just shit.

emptyquoting

[Lumbermancer]

So after another round of doing nothing antagonistic for 45 minutes only to get bolted between two doors 10 seconds after I made my first (silent, no camera, suit sensor, or radio warning) antagonistic act, I've kinda reached my limit on AI bullshit.

I told you, I merely scrolled camera past you. You were unlucky that's all, and nothing you are proposing would change the outcome of that situation.

Slow down camera scroll or something.

[Cobby]

If you want to nerf the AI, just have a shared pool of "Data" or whatever your flavor wants to be, and then set everything to have a "Data" cost. That's how we "fixed" Lings.

• Want to Stop a Tatortot? Save enough Data to be able to Bolt an area or a Traitor can escape!
• Want a Crew Monitor Up? Sure, but it'll drain your Data.
• Want to Jump to a person instead of scrolling to them? Sure, but it'll cost you Data!

Of course, There would probably be buildables that allow More Data/second or a larger Data Cap [AKA Items Traitors can destroy to improve their chances on not being messed with].

[Oldman Robustin]

So after another round of doing nothing antagonistic for 45 minutes only to get bolted between two doors 10 seconds after I made my first (silent, no camera, suit sensor, or radio warning) antagonistic act, I've kinda reached my limit on AI bullshit.

I told you, I merely scrolled camera past you. You were unlucky that's all, and nothing you are proposing would change the outcome of that situation.

Slow down camera scroll or something.

I agree that this particular instance doesn't address many of my concerns, but you're wrong that nothing I'm proposing would change the outcome.

I was sitting in between those two airlocks with an unlocked PDA with 20 TC, planning to buy some explosives to quickly destroy containment. When the doors were bolted I wasn't even sure it was you at first. Maybe the singularity had just EMP'd the bolts?

1) If I had a doorjacker I would've been out of there before security had arrived, instead I grabbed some c4 as a last resort before realizing that any c4 detonation would probably crit/knock me out since I would be adjacent to the explosion. I even had time to try and pulse the bolts (before shocking myself since engineering had been stripped of gloves and Syndie toolboxes didn't provide them yet). I had the time and telecrystals to try and develop a solution but there simply was not anything in the 30+ items to choose from that would have let me escape that situation alive. The doorjacker is my proposal to change that and countless other situations where the AI has an outsized and unfair influence on traitor rounds.

2) Departmental radio is what allowed you to summon 3 security officers to me while I still hesitated hoping that the bolted door was just the result of an EMP from the singularity. Without security radio you would either have to notify them on common radio (aka giving me a head's up to either start working on my escape sooner or at least letting me investing in a gun so that I could try to fight) or notify them by PDA (and risking that less officers show up, or take too long to show up). Like most of the changes that have made the AI intolerable... they rarely were just a straight-up expansion of the AI's abilities but rather they were small improvements that gave traitors less time and less ability to try and fight back against the AI until it became a completely one-sided conflict where antags just feel helpless against HarmYeller McDoorBolter 9000.

[Steelpoint]

I agree with Oldman's suggestion of removing the AI's access to departmental radio and forcing it to either use general comms or PDA messaging to get messages out.

That would be a good first step in the right direction.

[TheNightingale]

Here's a thought. How about if we buff the antagonists instead of nerfing the AI?

[Gun Hog]

Is it too much to ask that traitors prepare for their attack instead of blindly strolling up to a single target and gunning him down? Pop an EMP grenade to kill radios and cameras, without alerting the AI, you can screwdriver-multitool cameras to stealthily disable them. The toolbox, which is 1TC, comes with everything you need plus gloves to pre-cut the AI wire on airlocks, forcing it to begin hacking. Your radio issue as a traitor can be solved by buying a Syndie radio key, which was even reduced to a meager 2TC, and Changelings are soon getting a buff to be completely invisible. Mitigating the AI as a Traitor has become easy mode, you just have to think, and plan ahead. All stealthy antagonists have ways of preparing, and the recent and upcoming buffs should make it a small investment in your TC to be ready.

Any antagonist that does not prepare before he attacks deserves to get dunked faster than most fireball-MM Wizards. Also, seriously, buy the radio key. Not only does it let you intercept Security chatter, it gives you the chance to work together with other traitors. Teamwork among traitors is a VERY powerful thing. Consider trying it.

[PKPenguin321]

Here's a thought. How about if we buff the antagonists instead of nerfing the AI?

power creep

[Cheimon]

Honestly, I think a traitor doorjack would be pretty reasonable and by far the least controversial of these things. The AI is more a problem for traitors than anyone else, and it seems fair that a cheeky bolt shouldn't be the end of all traitoring.

[Luke Cox]

Would it be fair to say that rapid bolting is the primary issue that people have with the AI vs traitor?

[Oldman Robustin]

It's pretty much bolting, period.

Of course slow bolting would be preferable to rapid bolting, but most of the time I get caught, I don't even realize the AI is watching me. If my victim yells HELP on camera.. sure I'll make a run for the nearest exit, but often I think I'm being sneaky when AI will use suit sensors, random luck, or dept. radio reports to find me when I don't even know I've been seen (i.e. someone on science radio says they heard gunshots, I killed someone in xenobio with no witnesses, I take my time stripping the victim but when I go to leave... its all bolted).

[Luke Cox]

I don't even realize the AI is watching me.

And that is what the dirt cheap AI detector is for, my friend. Make bolts take 3-5 seconds and have the bolt lights flash during this period. Problem solved.

[Incomptinence]

If AI actually tries to stop prisoners being executed or otherwise harmed they get banned. A neutral third party has been turned from and two edged sword into well a mess. At least that is how I understand established policy.

Even if they don't get banned the sort of security who set this shit off will just manually kill the borgs and AI.

[lumipharon]

I don't even realize the AI is watching me.

And that is what the dirt cheap AI detector is for, my friend. Make bolts take 3-5 seconds and have the bolt lights flash during this period. Problem solved.

Saying "one specific type of antag can get this one specific item to help them with AI's (while also limiting what they can other wise buy)" is not a solution.

[Luke Cox]

I don't even realize the AI is watching me.

And that is what the dirt cheap AI detector is for, my friend. Make bolts take 3-5 seconds and have the bolt lights flash during this period. Problem solved.

Saying "one specific type of antag can get this one specific item to help them with AI's (while also limiting what they can other wise buy)" is not a solution.

Considering that traitors are the people having problems, it pretty much is.

Changeling: Digital Camouflage
Rev: Station-wide revolt. Already has a high winrate. Working as intended.
Ops: The "going stealth" ship sailed when you bombed the armory/telcoms while wearing bright red hardsuits. Not to mention that Syndicate borgs can kill the AI in seconds
Cult: Cutting cams in your autism cult fort should be the first order of business. If the AI doesn't die at the hands of a wraith less than 20 minutes in, you are a shitty cult and deserve to lose
Blob: You're a giant gelatinous mass. The crew will find you without the AI's help.
Gang: I can sympathize with this one. Give gang bosses AI detectors.
Wizard: You have fucking magic, stop complaining

[Incomptinence]

Digital camo is basically the notrack of syndi IDs but blatant to anyone looking at you without maint access or ID scanning as a cherry on top. I would say lings are pretty fucked at least.

AI sat makes these issues a tad worse if I wanted to have the AI butt out when it was on the station I would just let off EMPs next to it. Worked like a charm but people can restore the drat thing you must remember.

[lumipharon]

I don't even realize the AI is watching me.

And that is what the dirt cheap AI detector is for, my friend. Make bolts take 3-5 seconds and have the bolt lights flash during this period. Problem solved.

Saying "one specific type of antag can get this one specific item to help them with AI's (while also limiting what they can other wise buy)" is not a solution.

Considering that traitors are the people having problems, it pretty much is.

Changeling: Digital Camouflage
Rev: Station-wide revolt. Already has a high winrate. Working as intended.
Ops: The "going stealth" ship sailed when you bombed the armory/telcoms while wearing bright red hardsuits. Not to mention that Syndicate borgs can kill the AI in seconds
Cult: Cutting cams in your autism cult fort should be the first order of business. If the AI doesn't die at the hands of a wraith less than 20 minutes in, you are a shitty cult and deserve to lose
Blob: You're a giant gelatinous mass. The crew will find you without the AI's help.
Gang: I can sympathize with this one. Give gang bosses AI detectors.
Wizard: You have fucking magic, stop complaining

Even if you utterly ignore all other antags (many of whom, amazingly enough don't have time to cut every single camera everywhere they might possible have to be, on both sides of all airlocks), this still doesn't address the issue of a 'necessary' item. Significantly, you can't take bundles or crates, and there's a few other combos that use all 20tc.

[Saegrimr]

Also cutting cams in your cult fort is like the best way to get a sec team up your ass.
"Cams are cut in xenobio someone go check it out"

[Takeguru]

That's exactly why most successful cults aren't even on station.

[Luke Cox]

Ideally, you should have cult people cutting cams everywhere. Also, you're retarded if you keep runes in one place all the time, except for off-station locations like the White Ship. Don't sit by and twiddle your thumbs. Make it hard for the AI. Find out the AI control wires, get a screwdriver and wirecutter, and get to work. 5 or so people can make the station hell for the AI if they actually try.

[newfren]

Also as a ling I generally make it a pretty high priority to just walk onto the AI sat as a monkey and spam EMPS at the AI until it dies. There's sweet fuck all the AI can actually do about this without metagaming and getting a borg to weld all the vents in the sat at round start, and there are plenty of secluded locations with vents where you can leave your shit and start navigating to engineering and then the sat.

Really it seems like the antags with the biggest troubles are traitors and gangs. Traitors can buy any number of things to help deal with the AI (the aforementioned traitor detector, C-4, syndicate keys for letting you know when the AI is onto you, emps, etc.), while for gangs it's really only a problem once you drop a dominator and the AI focuses in on your gang - the other gangs are getting hit just as hard as you are until then, and by the time you're ready to dominate the station is already in a lot of chaos and you should be able to throw up at least some walls around your little base.

I do see the arguments against the all-seeing eye of the AI, and I'd like to see the results of a week-long trial without it, but I think 90% of the problems you're having with the AI can be mitigated in most gamemodes as most antags.

[Actionb]

Make bolts take 3-5 seconds and have the bolt lights flash during this period. Problem solved.

Another good compromise.
In case you weren't taught the secret ninja-shaolin technique of hacking airlocks by Bruce 'Yip Man' Miyagi.

[Miauw]

doors should slowly play their close animation while being bolted by the AI, for that action-movie feel.

[Incomptinence]

Wouldn't people just keep the door open during the bolting to bolt it open?

I mean I know you guys want the AI to basically be removed but turning it into a free emag whenever it even dreams of stopping you isn't better.

[Miauw]

Wouldn't people just keep the door open during the bolting to bolt it open?

I mean I know you guys want the AI to basically be removed but turning it into a free emag whenever it even dreams of stopping you isn't better.

that's trivial to circumvent, though, you could just make it "close and bolt" so it automatically tries to close the door at the end of the waiting time and then bolts it. Even if somebody stands in it and the safeties aren't overridden it would close as soon as the person moves.

This would also have the side effect of monarch butterflies preventing doors from being locked, which I must approve of.

[Amnestik]

Rather than removing one of the most unique roles in the game I'd rather try a week or two of traitorsec again.

I understand security needs to trust each other and work as a team in modes like nuke, rev, gang, etc, but traitor should be all about backstabbing and paranoia, not about the validhunting team vs the woefully underequipped spies.

Only if their targets can only be heads of staff, other security officers or the captain, all of whom are much harder to arrest and make disappear than random crewmembers.

[Fr05tByt3]

Is it too much to ask that traitors prepare for their attack instead of blindly strolling up to a single target and gunning him down? Pop an EMP grenade to kill radios and cameras, without alerting the AI, you can screwdriver-multitool cameras to stealthily disable them. The toolbox, which is 1TC, comes with everything you need plus gloves to pre-cut the AI wire on airlocks, forcing it to begin hacking. Your radio issue as a traitor can be solved by buying a Syndie radio key, which was even reduced to a meager 2TC, and Changelings are soon getting a buff to be completely invisible. Mitigating the AI as a Traitor has become easy mode, you just have to think, and plan ahead. All stealthy antagonists have ways of preparing, and the recent and upcoming buffs should make it a small investment in your TC to be ready.

Any antagonist that does not prepare before he attacks deserves to get dunked faster than most fireball-MM Wizards. Also, seriously, buy the radio key. Not only does it let you intercept Security chatter, it gives you the chance to work together with other traitors. Teamwork among traitors is a VERY powerful thing. Consider trying it.

This.

Oldman is literally just "OMG I DED PLS NERF" all over the place. He thinks he's such an amazing player that if anything bad happens to his round at all then it's obviously not his fault, game is broken. It's pretty ridiculous.

[Incomptinence]

Can't hold that against him though. I mean coders mock him for it but it is just a mirror of their own motivations.

[Miauw]

so it cant be held against oldman but it can be held against us? :^]

[Incomptinence]

I prefer to hold people accountable for changes actually made. I have also been generally against his proposal in this thread also but mainly because I think it is bad idea so he isn't getting off scott free.

[MisterPerson]

How about we get back on topic instead of trying to play some kind of blame game?

[Steelpoint]

Off topic but I think this is what Oldman was getting at.

[youtube]Vyp19oOCAjA[/youtube]

On topic I think at the very least going for a week without the AI would be a good thing to try.

[lumipharon]

People that paladin/robocop the AI at round start (CERTAIN PEOPLE THAT DO IT EVERY ROUND AS CAPTAIN) are truly awful.

When under those lawsets, AI's really are cockblocker9000's - it's pretty shit.