PR#11689 Security Weapon Overhaul: Auto Rifle Edition

Stickymayhem · Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:20 am

Bottom post of the previous page:

>Using a maxcap explosion when syndiebombs are 99.994% the thing used to break into the armory.

I hope you're not doing that on purpose.

Also that explosion didn't touch the APCs, didn't breach the wardens office and basically had a minimal affect on the brig at all.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:18 am #118529

What I was trying to demonstrate was that if you compared the old bomb cap on the old armoury to the new bomb cap on my newer proposed armoury that the effects of the bomb are almost identical.

Also Sticky, the first picture I took detonated the bomb directly above the Auto Rifles, here's a image where I detonated the bomb in the direct centre above the armoury instead of too the left.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:42 pm #118538

Make security lasers not suck first.

why are security lasers still not buffed?

There is literally no ranged weapon (that is actually meant as a weapon) that is worse in incapacitating a person than the laser gun.

Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:48 pm

CPTANT wrote:Make security lasers not suck first.

why are security lasers still not buffed?

There is literally no ranged weapon (that is actually meant as a weapon) that is worse in incapacitating a person than the laser gun.

they're not bad if you stun the person first, tase and lase is super strong

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:07 pm #118709

I should note this PR is going to be trialled on the server for a while, at least until MSO's server transfer is finished/underway.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:30 pm #118710

Tase and anything is super strong moron.

Absalom · Post by **Absalom** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:48 pm #118723

The armory layout being changed vis a vis bomb damage wouldn't be an issue if MEGA SPACE WIND wasn't present.

Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:57 am

Tornadium wrote:Tase and anything is super strong moron.

yeah but lasers crit in like 5 hits and have comparatively little cooldown between shots and they have range and shit, idk

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:17 am #118827

It's a good combination because you can then recharge both weapons pretty easily. With a ballistic tase and spray is a waste of ammunition.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:25 am #118848

I've been spectating a few rounds, and while I've missed most due to sleeping, and the fact that its too early to get a definitive impression of how the auto rifles will fair...

I've seen a few instances of security members admitting that the only reason they survive a round (Rev, Cult and Gang) was due to their access to the rifles giving them the chance of not dying, they still lost the round but they did not die.

callanrockslol · Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:00 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Tase and anything is super strong moron.
yeah but lasers crit in like 5 hits and have comparatively little cooldown between shots and they have range and shit, idk

You can crit someone faster than most people can call out for help if you're good with the hotkeys and have decent ping, its amazingly strong if you can do it consistently.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:52 am #118888

Steelpoint wrote:I've seen a few instances of security members admitting that the only reason they survive a round (Rev, Cult and Gang) was due to their access to the rifles giving them the chance of not dying, they still lost the round but they did not die.

More like the autorifles carried them. The only reason they survived is because they had access to an extraordinarily powerful weapon. It's like saying that having a pulse rifle is the only reason I survived a round after the primary antagonists had basically already won.

A single autorifle gunner won't rule a round, but a full sec force with them out will mow down opposition.

I'm going to abuse these ridiculous autorifles every chance I get and kill the entire station 5 times over with them every round just to display how stupid this is.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:01 am #118889

Amelius wrote:
I'm going to abuse these ridiculous autorifles every chance I get and kill the entire station 5 times over with them every round just to display how stupid this is.

First sticky now you, seems like people are out to get me.

Stickymayhem · Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:51 am

>W-why are people out to get messed?

Because you're shoving in shitty changes to make your department overpowered.

You're Fucking admitting it even. "The only reason I survived is thanks to your overpowered rifle!" Is not good feedback you selfish cunt

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:58 am #118893

Oh not me, I've only played one round as sec post rifles and that was on very low pop.

I'm talking about others.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:59 am #118894

From the rounds I played, The auto rifles don't seem to really be as over powered or balance breaking as feared. Like at all.

In Gang Rounds sec used them and survived a little longer because they had the firepower to not immediately die, in rev they managed to hold the brig a little longer before being overwhelmed and dying.

They still lost nuke, hard.

Yeah, your fears are completely irrational and unfounded.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:42 am #118896

So how does putting weapons that are effective vs ops into the armoury do anything other than encourage nuke ops to raid the armoury?

Encouraging generic meta behaviours has never been a good thing.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:49 am #118897

Ops have been avoiding bombing the armoury due to how dangrous it is, your essentially attacking into security and that gives officers the home field advantage.

Also, while its not the smartest plan, it is a valid tactic to hit security to attempt to deny security access to their more lethal weapons.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:53 am #118898

I also had a nice converstation on #coderbus IRC and I said that, pending further testing/feedback, I might remove the burst fire capability of the auto rifle.

I may also buff the Juggs health and lower its deflection chance, as well as maybe buff the SABR with a higher ammo capacity.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Steelpoint wrote:I also had a nice converstation on #coderbus IRC and I said that, pending further testing/feedback, I might remove the burst fire capability of the auto rifle.

I may also buff the Juggs health and lower its deflection chance, as well as maybe buff the SABR with a higher ammo capacity.

Doesn't this make the auto-rifle a stetchkin with a 20-round magazine?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:18 am #118903

A lot of guns could be described as a pistol with a x round mag.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Steelpoint wrote:A lot of guns could be described as a pistol with a x round mag.

I can only think of the Uzi, unless that was changed to be a burst as well when it was made a gang weapon.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:48 pm #118919

Plans for what I want or might want to do:

--------------

Auto Rifles
What I will do

Decrease magazine presence to one spare magazine per rifle.
Add a expensive way to produce extra magazines from cargo Autolathes, it should be more expensive than SABR magazines from RnD. In addition to bumping up the cargo crate cost for space magazines.
Change bullet type to a sub-type of .45 rounds instead of 9mm, or the same bullet type that SABR uses.

What I might do based on feedback/observations

Decrease damage to 20 damage per bullet
Decrease available guns from four to three.
Alter bulletproof armour and helmet to have identical values (body is 80 to helms 40)
Add RnD magazine's that increase the magazine size slightly, prehaps to 25 rounds per mag or more
More unique RnD items for the gun as upgrades.

SABR

Increase magazine size to 30 rounds.
Buff burst fire to three rounds per burst.

Antagonists

What I might do based on feedback/observations

Increase Juggernaut Health slightly, require 15 or so rounds to kill. Right now takes 13 to kill.
Might allow traitors to buy special Auto Rifle rounds that deal different damage, such as toxin damage or are incendiary rounds, or just general alternative ammo for traitor firearms.
Ensure all antag armour has some level of bullet protection (which they do generally)

I want to observe more rounds with the auto rifles, including Nuke Ops rounds.

I hope this trial can remain up for a week, this is to ensure we get maximum good feedback.

srifenbyxp · Post by **srifenbyxp** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:25 pm #118928

I like the ideal of having rifles, but they seem the type to be special ordered via cargo or researched.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:18 pm #118941

Changes I'm proposing to the PR.

----

Auto Rifle nerfed to 20 damage per bullet, in line with SABR.

SABR buffed to be a direct upgrade to the WT-550, holding 42 rounds per mag with a three round burst fire mode.

----

NEW RND ITEMS

At round start RnD can produce, expensive, alt magazines for security, they can make the following.

High Cap Mag: Magazine holding 25 default bullets
AP Mag: Magazine holding 15 AP bullets, dealing 17 damage but having 50 AP
Toxin Tipped Magazine: Holding 20 bullets with bullets that deal 15 toxin damage per bullet
Incendiary Round Magazine: Holding 20 bullets with bullets dealing 10 damage that sets the target on fire.

In addition the SABR get's its own alt magazines on offer once its researched.

Again the above mags will be very expensive, the SABR mags will be less expensive however.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:34 pm #118953

I should also note the current the SABR can mount a silencer, the WT-550 cannot.

E: I've also got a suggestion from someone to make end game bullets that use plasteel.

Essentially a advance bullet making method that requires (Materials 6, Combat 5 and Plasma 4) that deal 25 damage (for both WT-550 and SABR) as well as 25 AP.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:46 pm #118956

Ok so I've also got some new ideas, suggestions from others and my own.

Casless Ammo: Magazines that have double the bullets (40 for WT-550 and 84 for SABR) but deal half the damage (10).
Toxic Rounds: Different from the prior Toxic (Now Uranium Tipped) rounds, these need syndicate tech to lvl 4 but deal 10 toxic and 40 radiation damage per bullet.
Flechette Shotgun Rounds: Unique shotgun shells that fire five pellets that have a 15% chance to embed in a target. Also have several alt ammo types available.

This is in addition to the prior proposed alt ammo from RnD.

High Capacity Mags: Magazine holding 25 (Or 47) default bullets
AP Mag: Magazine holding 20 AP bullets, dealing 17 damage but having 50 AP each.
Uranium Tipped Magazine: Holding 20 bullets with bullets that deal 15 (or 10) toxin damage per bullet
Incendiary Round Magazine: Holding 20 bullets with bullets dealing 10 damage that sets the target on fire.
Plasteel Adv Mag: Holding 20 bullets, each bullet deals 25 damage and has 25 AP. Is very expensive and has very high research requirements.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:46 pm #118957

I like this. Security needed some hard firepower to use against things like ops and constructs. Officers won't be running around with these chasing down assistants, but they're there for emergencies. Syndie bombs not fully obliterating the armory is fine with me too. Security should have the advantage in that situation. With the new armory being larger, it even opens up the possibility of ops sneaking in and taking the rifles. Perma prisoners can do this with a well-placed C4. I'm for buffing antags, but they should have to play smart. My only suggestion would be to make it so that only the HoS and Captain can lift the shutters, if that isn't already the case.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:52 pm #118958

I'm also going to be slightly buffing the laser, likely to 16 rounds and 22 damage.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:27 pm #118960

>laser buff

fucking finally

LNGLY · Post by **LNGLY** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:53 am #119048

>PR something retardedly overpowered and senseless
>OK guys for this patch I removed 5 damage, now it only does the same DPS as a laser cannon (not an exaggeration by the way)
>Can u merge please

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:02 am #119049

Torsion gave the suggestion of making the Auto Rifle a two handed weapon, needing it to be in both hands before firing thus making it less versatile than other lethal weapons, as well as giving the SABR even more of a upgrade.

Sweaterkittens · Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:22 am

I really like the idea of making it a requirement to wield it two-handed before being able to fire. It's thematic, deals with some of the balance concerns as it takes longer to equip and fire, and eliminates the potential of wielding it with a riot shield/e-shield. It doesn't reduce the firepower of the weapon (which /should/ be significant as a red-alert shit's fucked type weapon), but it reduces it's deadliness.

I'm also a fan of eliminating burst fire, as we were attempting to move away from the "one-hit kill" gameplay that tasers bring, but you have 0 time to react before you're dead on the ground. It also just makes the text window INSANE with several people firing the rifles. Ausops ran a "CQB training" event last night, where half the security team was taken to centcomm to participate in drills with Deathsquaddies. Between only four people, two of which had autorifles, and two of which had ARG boarders, it was literally impossible to tell what was going on. This game is not meant to accurately display visuals for bullets and until someone fell over, we had no idea who'd been hit, who was shooting, or where anyone was aiming. Making it single fire would really ameliorate that issue.

I don't think either of those changes would make the rifles worthless, it'd just bring them into line with the other guns currently in the game.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:09 am #119063

I'm thinking of replacing the bullet sprites, all bullet sprites, with a more clearly visible one since the current sprites are really hard to see.

We kinda get away with it currently due to bullet weapons being uncommon but if my auto rifle PR goes ahead it needs to be addressed.

Here's a example of the sprites I might use

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:44 am #119065

I'm also not 100% certain I'll be able to do two handed projectile weapons.

TechnoAlchemist · Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:01 am

Those sprites don't look good, do not change them to that. Bullets shouldn't be easy to see.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:27 am #119070

The sprites can be for another time.

I pushed the last major update to the PR, its now merge ready. Though I do intend to add more exotic ammo in a later PR.

Ok some major changes.

AUTO RIFLE

Auto Rifle bullets only deal 20 damage per bullet.

Burst fire capability removed, single shot mode only.

Several extra magazines removed from armoury.

Cost of cargo crates increased to 40 points from 30.

Alt Magazines available for research and development.
SABR RND SMG

Buffed to have 42 rounds per magazine

Alt Magazines available for research and development.
NEW ALT AMMO
New alternative ammo is on offer from RnD, these provide different damage types as a side grade but are more expensive to produce than normal ammo. All ammo types are on offer for both the WT550 and SABR, however the WT550 Magazines are double more expensive than SABR alt mags.

WT550 Alt mags can be made at round start, but still need double the exotic materials from mining.

AP Mag: Magazine holding 20 AP bullets, dealing 17 damage but having 50 AP

Toxin Tipped Magazine: Holding 20 bullets with bullets that deal 15 toxin damage per bullet

Incendiary Round Magazine: Holding 20 bullets with bullets dealing 10 damage that sets the target on fire.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:34 am #119073

SABR is already very powerful and does not need a buff.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:58 am #119079

Why do the steelrifle mags cost twice as much, when they have the exact same bullets, only HALF the quantity?
Essentially you would use a couple of mags for the gun, then print sabr mags as (superior) ammo boxes.

Also seriously dont buff the sabr so much. It's already good.

Edit: aaand someone merged it. Cool bro.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:19 pm #119080

I made the WT550 mags more expensive to make it more advisable for RnD to research to get the SABR.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

PR discussion locked because it was at 123 comments and already merged.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:15 pm #119110

Just to note the auto rifles now only deal 20 damage and have no burst fire capabilities, so single shot only.

SABR keeps its burst fire ability.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:46 pm #119147

Steelpoint wrote:Torsion gave the suggestion of making the Auto Rifle a two handed weapon, needing it to be in both hands before firing thus making it less versatile than other lethal weapons, as well as giving the SABR even more of a upgrade.

>Listening to anything startoad says when he doesn't even really play, also startoad
It's like you want this to be a joke steelpoint

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:59 pm #119150

I have wanted a gun i could hold in two hands for so long though. Better for operators operating operations operationally.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:01 pm #119162

I did like it when I tried it a couple nights ago. Still... Lasers! More better lasers!

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:01 pm #119186

Two handed along with all the other nerfs makes it pretty much pointless as far as I'm concerned. If lasers do more damage and can fit in one hand, then why bother with the alternative that can't go through windows or be recharged?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:25 am #119197

I dislike this change. I played security officer for a while, and it completely trivializes every threat. Nuke ops? Energy shields don't block ballistics. Revs? Just fire a few shots. Cult? You can't outrun bullets. Security shouldn't be able to robust every threat.

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:28 am

That's a pretty big buff to the SABR, especially since you can stuff like 10 mags into your backpack now that tiny items take up very little space

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:42 am #119205

I think the weapons were a bit OP with their burst fire ability, hence why I removed it.

At the current stage the weapons are similar to Lasers in terms of damage, their main advantage is that they simply have double the magazine capacity (20 rounds versus 10) and that they can be reloaded in the field versus recharged at base. Also they can bypass certain energy defences (SHIELDs) but at the cost that they can't shoot through windows and that most antag armour has higher bullet defence than laser defence.

I might look at buffing lasers slightly to give them a bit of a damage edge over the rifles.

Also Nuke Op shields block bullets at a 50% rate, I guess up until now Operatives have had a easy time against security if they knew what they were doing.

If you can kill a Rev or Cultist with a Rifle you can kill them with a Laser just as well, if its a issue of invisible bullets I do have alt sprites on offer.

Edit: The bullets seem to travel at the same rate as other weapon projectiles from testing, so its not a case of bullets moving faster. I think its just that they are harder to see.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:51 am #119219

I can implement a two-handed mechanic for the gun that uses the 'heavy_weapon' var, meaning you have to have a empty free hand to fire the gun normally. If not then you have a 30% chance to drop the gun when you fire and your screen shakes like all hell.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:27 am #119225

Also Ausops presented these alternative rifle sprites, do you prefer them or the current one?