Changeling Ability: Biodegrade

[metacide]

Just a quick feedback thread regarding the new(ish) changeling ability biodegrade which Xhuis added back in September.

I saw a ling today which murderboned swathes of the crew and got an ERT sent after it that I was part of. It regenerated from death and biodegraded out of handcuffs very quickly at least twice, killing whoever was trying to dispose of it both times. What's the point in having cuffs at all if lings can ignore them? It seems rather unbalanced and makes the problem of ling being massively overpowered quite a lot worse, and a few people still seem unaware they can do this, compounding the issue further.

Shaps: I agree that lings are ridiculous but you could have just welded him into a locker
Shaps: I will fully admit that being able to acid out of cuffs is retarded
Bluespace: >biodegrades out locker >armblades you to death
Bluespace: ur now ded shaps
Ktccd: it can? what the fuck is biodegrade, and how does it melt metal?
Bob Dobbington: ling has a new power to melt cuffs and lockers
Anonus Tanir: it's "escape all the things restraining you"
Ktccd: but that's what MONKEY WAS FOR!
Ktccd: MONKEY was the trade-off to escape shit!

Changeling really didn't need this buff, could Xhuis perhaps rebalance it or remove it if they have time?

[Deitus]

i fully agree with biodegrade being shit, i remember there was a round where a ling raided armory and i had the hos, warden, two officers and i all stunning this faggot and cuffing him but he kept biodegrading out. i know we shouldve just lasered him but that's not the point.

if we do keep it, which i really dont think we should, we should at LEAST make it cost way more to do so. i can understand needing it for lockers but 99% of usages for biodegrade are for cuffs, and getting out of them should have last resort consequences to them like monkey did.

[Wyzack]

Fun tip for dealing with lings, neckgrab them. choke em to death and then toss in the incinerator before they can regenerate. I think all they can do in that scenario is monkey to escape, but because biodegrade is so gud no one takes lesser form anymore

[Zilenan91]

Just remove it. There's no repurposing this ability. It's monkey form without it being shit.

[CPTANT]

biodegrade is fine.

Costs 30 chemicals and offers none off the other benefits last resort and monkey give.

[Deitus]

the benefits to monkey are actually pretty low considering you lose all of your equipment and 100% out yourself as ling for the ability to ventrawl, which takes time. biodegrade bypasses all of that, and lets you destroy up to 3 pairs of cuffs. that's fuckin ridiculous.

[onleavedontatme]

Ling is boring to play as and frustrating to fight because none of your actions, reactions, or mistakes mean anything. Every single thing you can do to a ling they have a button to press to undo it

Shoot/stab/burn? Fleshmend

Tase/baton/prod? Adrenal

Send a robot? Aoe emp stun

Cuff them? Biodegrade

Somehow managed to kill them? Headslug+aoe stun

And so on. None of these abilities have any real cooldown, and the insane chem production means you can almost always use them.

They're just murder machines with a dozen "nah your attack didnt count I win" buttons.

[Xhuis]

I tried to make Biodegrade less powerful (i.e. costs 3 DNA points and 50 chemicals) but I was told that it would be too underpowered.
This is what happens when you make me buff things. I'm in the middle of a project right now, so I don't have any time to remove this. It should be an easy task.

[Oldman Robustin]

The thing is all of these abilities have a tradeoff, if you give up lesser form for biodegrade then bolted doors are now capable of ending your game.

Ive never taken biodegrade but I wouldn't care if it was removed either, people just need to remember that you can't take all the ling goodies together. Armor, Headslug, etc. all take from some critical survival ability.

I actually like that you have to gauge a ling's abilities to kill it, we can tone down current lings but its still better than "an assistant with a stunprod is more powerful in combat than a changeling" meta we had before.

>Suspicious dudes walks up to you in maint
>Mouse over stunprod
>Armblade engaged!
>FZZZT he's on the floor
>Adrenals up
>Too bad you were already swinging again, down again instantly
>He's out of chems
>Cablecuff
>GG

[Incomptinence]

It is redundant and the only reason for biodegrade to exist is to let you uncuff and instantly wail on people with your innate weapons. Which isn't really fun.

[bandit]

hard counter to ling: internals of N2O/carbon dioxide (what the fuck is that)

[Xhuis]

I want to fix this, but I don't want to remove it. Possible thoughts I have are increased chem costs or DNA costs, in addition to maybe a small cooldown on using changeling abilities in general. What do you think?

[PKPenguin321]

I want to fix this, but I don't want to remove it. Possible thoughts I have are increased chem costs or DNA costs, in addition to maybe a small cooldown on using changeling abilities in general. What do you think?

cooldown is bad idea, it's already horrible enough with the transformation sting thing
if anything, increase chem costs

[Zilenan91]

I want to fix this, but I don't want to remove it. Possible thoughts I have are increased chem costs or DNA costs, in addition to maybe a small cooldown on using changeling abilities in general. What do you think?

If you want to save this increase the chem costs, make it castable on others, but not on yourself. Melting the armor off of people would be a nice ability.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

hard counter to ling: internals of N2O/carbon dioxide (what the fuck is that)

Has to be the N2O for the knockout, CO2 suffocate can be fleshmended away

[imblyings]

make biodegrade melt off the cuffs and a few other extra items the ling is wearing :^)

[Xhuis]

Currently have a balance PR up for this right now. Changes listed below.

• Biodegrade now costs 2 DNA points
• Biodegrade now deals 10 changeling genetic damage and must not have any genetic damage in order to use - this effectively gives the ability a cooldown and prevents spamming (most other abilities are not hindered by this)

[Luke Cox]

Apply N20/Anesthetic tanks. This kills the ling.

[callanrockslol]

It also looks like something has happened with regen stasis, really fast resurrection going on now, lings are pretty impossible to keep down at all solo.

They've gone from being spoopy to being more dangerous in a fight than a team of flukes.

Apply N20/Anesthetic tanks. This kills the ling.

The chloral syringes from the brig are super deadly too if they don't have panacea.

[Oldman Robustin]

Currently have a balance PR up for this right now. Changes listed below.

• Biodegrade now costs 2 DNA points
• Biodegrade now deals 10 changeling genetic damage and must not have any genetic damage in order to use - this effectively gives the ability a cooldown and prevents spamming (most other abilities are not hindered by this)

How can the ling cure its genetic damage?

[Helios]

Currently have a balance PR up for this right now. Changes listed below.

• Biodegrade now costs 2 DNA points
• Biodegrade now deals 10 changeling genetic damage and must not have any genetic damage in order to use - this effectively gives the ability a cooldown and prevents spamming (most other abilities are not hindered by this)

How can the ling cure its genetic damage?

Fleshmend?

[CPTANT]

complete overnerf of an abillity that was barely better than monkey form to begin with.

[lumipharon]

The thing is all of these abilities have a tradeoff, if you give up lesser form for biodegrade then bolted doors are now capable of ending your game.

Ive never taken biodegrade but I wouldn't care if it was removed either, people just need to remember that you can't take all the ling goodies together. Armor, Headslug, etc. all take from some critical survival ability.

I actually like that you have to gauge a ling's abilities to kill it, we can tone down current lings but its still better than "an assistant with a stunprod is more powerful in combat than a changeling" meta we had before.

>Suspicious dudes walks up to you in maint
>Mouse over stunprod
>Armblade engaged!
>FZZZT he's on the floor
>Adrenals up
>Too bad you were already swinging again, down again instantly
>He's out of chems
>Cablecuff
>GG

All it takes is to husk 1 or 2 brain dead assistants, then you can retool your powers on the fly, and go from max murderbon to max escape.

Also headslug is currently unironically OP.
I saw a FULL HEALTH armoured warden arrest a ling and drag it off.
The ling headburst or whatever it's called, then CRITTED and murdered the warden by biting him as a headslug, before the warden was able to recover from the stun.

[Incomptinence]

complete overnerf of an abillity that was barely better than monkeyf orm to begin with.

Ya I don't want is nerfed I want it removed, redundant ability that blurs the line between traitors and changies needlessly. ACTUALLY ON THAT NOTE REMOVE LING.

[PKPenguin321]

The thing is all of these abilities have a tradeoff, if you give up lesser form for biodegrade then bolted doors are now capable of ending your game.

Ive never taken biodegrade but I wouldn't care if it was removed either, people just need to remember that you can't take all the ling goodies together. Armor, Headslug, etc. all take from some critical survival ability.

I actually like that you have to gauge a ling's abilities to kill it, we can tone down current lings but its still better than "an assistant with a stunprod is more powerful in combat than a changeling" meta we had before.

>Suspicious dudes walks up to you in maint
>Mouse over stunprod
>Armblade engaged!
>FZZZT he's on the floor
>Adrenals up
>Too bad you were already swinging again, down again instantly
>He's out of chems
>Cablecuff
>GG

All it takes is to husk 1 or 2 brain dead assistants, then you can retool your powers on the fly, and go from max murderbon to max escape.

Also headslug is currently unironically OP.
I saw a FULL HEALTH armoured warden arrest a ling and drag it off.
The ling headburst or whatever it's called, then CRITTED and murdered the warden by biting him as a headslug, before the warden was able to recover from the stun.

actually, popping a headslug actually makes you explode, so the explosion KO stun is pretty much RNG.

[lumipharon]

Yeah, I dunno how explosion KO works, but the fact that you even can kill a fully armoured, healthy sec officer as a cuffed/dead/straitjacketed/whatever ling is pretty retarded.

[Xhuis]

Explosion KO is completely RNG-based. The explosion itself is extremely small, having nothing but 2 light radius. The only special effects it has on nearby humans is to stun them for one second and blind them for five seconds as well as three seconds of confusion (borgs are knocked out for three seconds).

[PKPenguin321]

Yeah, I dunno how explosion KO works, but the fact that you even can kill a fully armoured, healthy sec officer as a cuffed/dead/straitjacketed/whatever ling is pretty retarded.

considering the explosion stun is RNG this argument doesnt really mean anything because hypothetically you could, with good RNG, chain stunpunches on the warden infinitely until he died.

[Xhuis]

Rebalance PR for Biodegrade has been merged. I'm still happy with Last Resort as-is, mainly because it destroys your current body.

[Oldman Robustin]

You guys can whine about ling all day but almost nothing has come closer to a true "The Thing" experience as going lesser form/fleshmend/armblade/engorged/adrenal/dissonant.

You pop out of a vent in the corner of someone's department, go human, adopt a flesh disguise that is almost -identical- to what the real thing would look like. You try to get near them, maybe asking them a question to distract them, then pop the armblade and go to town, shriek if they have time to yell, they'll often give you a short chase but with a slowdown from damage you will usually catch them and maul them while they scream for help. Extract Sting while they're in crit, then monkey out before the lynch mob arrives. First couple victims might not suspect you but after a murder or two the crew will be aware of your tactics.

But the tactic isn't so easy to counter, people basically have to suspect anyone out of place in their department and it induces that FUN paranoia that we used to have when the janitor walks into xenobio and you don't know if hes just there to clean the blood or if hes an inhuman monstrosity that will tear you to pieces the moment he gets close.

IMO its everything Ling should be. Scary, paranoia inducing, dangerous, posing as its victims, yet still killable/defeatable in combat.

[TechnoAlchemist]

You guys can whine about ling all day but almost nothing has come closer to a true "The Thing" experience as going lesser form/fleshmend/armblade/engorged/adrenal/dissonant.

You pop out of a vent in the corner of someone's department, go human, adopt a flesh disguise that is almost -identical- to what the real thing would look like. You try to get near them, maybe asking them a question to distract them, then pop the armblade and go to town, shriek if they have time to yell, they'll often give you a short chase but with a slowdown from damage you will usually catch them and maul them while they scream for help. Extract Sting while they're in crit, then monkey out before the lynch mob arrives. First couple victims might not suspect you but after a murder or two the crew will be aware of your tactics.

But the tactic isn't so easy to counter, people basically have to suspect anyone out of place in their department and it induces that FUN paranoia that we used to have when the janitor walks into xenobio and you don't know if hes just there to clean the blood or if hes an inhuman monstrosity that will tear you to pieces the moment he gets close.

IMO its everything Ling should be. Scary, paranoia inducing, dangerous, posing as its victims, yet still killable/defeatable in combat.

I am pretty sure that lesser form has a rediculous cool down now.

[Oldman Robustin]

You guys can whine about ling all day but almost nothing has come closer to a true "The Thing" experience as going lesser form/fleshmend/armblade/engorged/adrenal/dissonant.

You pop out of a vent in the corner of someone's department, go human, adopt a flesh disguise that is almost -identical- to what the real thing would look like. You try to get near them, maybe asking them a question to distract them, then pop the armblade and go to town, shriek if they have time to yell, they'll often give you a short chase but with a slowdown from damage you will usually catch them and maul them while they scream for help. Extract Sting while they're in crit, then monkey out before the lynch mob arrives. First couple victims might not suspect you but after a murder or two the crew will be aware of your tactics.

But the tactic isn't so easy to counter, people basically have to suspect anyone out of place in their department and it induces that FUN paranoia that we used to have when the janitor walks into xenobio and you don't know if hes just there to clean the blood or if hes an inhuman monstrosity that will tear you to pieces the moment he gets close.

IMO its everything Ling should be. Scary, paranoia inducing, dangerous, posing as its victims, yet still killable/defeatable in combat.

I am pretty sure that lesser form has a rediculous cool down now.

Its only like 20-30 seconds. It's definitely the weak spot in the build since you can't adrenal as a monkey and monkeys seem to get KO'd by even a stiff breeze.

[CPTANT]

really? When was a cooldown on lesser form added?

[Helios]

really? When was a cooldown on lesser form added?

When the cooldown on everything fun related to Changeling was.
Like the transformation sting 2 minute(?) cooldown from using any other changeling abilities.