nerfs dihydrogen monoxide

[newfren]

Bottom post of the previous page:

We need some sort of no-drop stun where the victim doesn't drop their stuff.

I'm pretty sure theres a "paralyze" which is what either the beepsky smash or neurotoxin bar drink does. I forget which.

Beepsky Smash only makes you drop things, it doesn't do anything else, whereas bar neurotoxin is just a really long lasting stun which will also make you drop things and is really good.

EDIT: Also I think the premise of both this thread and this pull request is really dumb and I don't support this nerf!

[Erbbu]

Yes you can see them spraying it but you are then forced to walk meaning, they will pretty much always escape. It's extremely difficult/near impossible to pursue someone with a high capacity area denial weapon that they're likely immune to.

Pretty much. And you might not even have been around to hear the water being sprayed on the floor in the first place. I don't like it.

[duncathan]

I made him water down the nerf (heh) and I yolomerged it
This isn't your regular old yolomerging though; dunc brand yolomerging comes with a money back guarantee if you don't like it by the end of the week

[Amelius]

I made him water down the nerf (heh) and I yolomerged it
This isn't your regular old yolomerging though; dunc brand yolomerging comes with a money back guarantee if you don't like it by the end of the week

Don't like it, also not in the spirit of the poll. It's still slashing the stun in half (from 4/2 to 2/1), which is a pretty massive nerf.

We all know nothing gets reverted in this game, even if people dislike a change, unless there's a massive outcry. So yeah, no.

[MMMiracles]

I made him water down the nerf (heh) and I yolomerged it
This isn't your regular old yolomerging though; dunc brand yolomerging comes with a money back guarantee if you don't like it by the end of the week

Don't like it, also not in the spirit of the poll. It's still slashing the stun in half (from 4/2 to 2/1), which is a pretty massive nerf.

We all know nothing gets reverted in this game, even if people dislike a change, unless there's a massive outcry. So yeah, no.

It's pretty shit if we've gotten to the point where we can't trust our own maintainers to keep their word.

Change was for the better anyway.

[Amelius]

It's pretty shit if we've gotten to the point where we can't trust our own maintainers to keep their word.

I don't trust the maintainers as far as I can throw them, and neither should anyone else. They've shown time and time again that they'll merge whatever they feel like merging, regardless of popularity - Cheridan is probably the best example of it, who quickmerged the removal of nuke op implants and firing pins despite no one thinking that they were a good idea, and defended the removal of nuke op implants for months, only eventually being fixed by goof of all people. Plenty more examples of that sort of thing happening for years since I've been here, and honestly, I'm sick of it. Goofchem is probably the best example, where it was quickmerged despite being a buggy broken mess for almost half a year, and despite pretty much everyone calling for it to be reverted, it was never.

The primary reason is it's a pain to revert things, and becomes more of a pain over time due to code conflicts.

[duncathan]

I made him water down the nerf (heh) and I yolomerged it
This isn't your regular old yolomerging though; dunc brand yolomerging comes with a money back guarantee if you don't like it by the end of the week

Don't like it, also not in the spirit of the poll. It's still slashing the stun in half (from 4/2 to 2/1), which is a pretty massive nerf.

We all know nothing gets reverted in this game, even if people dislike a change, unless there's a massive outcry. So yeah, no.

The poll has been up for over a week and its results were mixed. Additionally, the poll was for the original nerf values, so there may be more people open to the change after it was made 2,1.

[duncathan]

It's pretty shit if we've gotten to the point where we can't trust our own maintainers to keep their word.

I don't trust the maintainers as far as I can throw them, and neither should anyone else. They've shown time and time again that they'll merge whatever they feel like merging, regardless of popularity - Cheridan is probably the best example of it, who quickmerged the removal of nuke op implants and firing pins despite no one thinking that they were a good idea, and defended the removal of nuke op implants for months, only eventually being fixed by goof of all people. Plenty more examples of that sort of thing happening for years since I've been here, and honestly, I'm sick of it. Goofchem is probably the best example, where it was quickmerged despite being a buggy broken mess for almost half a year, and despite pretty much everyone calling for it to be reverted, it was never.

The primary reason is it's a pain to revert things, and becomes more of a pain over time due to code conflicts.

Give me the benefit of the doubt, please. I'm a brand new maintainer; you likely don't even recognize me unless you hang out on coderbus. This is my first controversial merge, and while you may not have trust in any of the other maintainers for whatever reason you may have, I doubt you have any reason to distrust me.
I'm new to the whole "maintainer" thing and ultimately I want to be on the players' good sides.

[adrix89]

I remember when water was 8 stun, good times.

That said I don't see the point of this nerf. There is a reason we have no slip shoes and careful walking.

[ShadowDimentio]

Yes, let's make slipping stun you for so little time I can't even take the bike horn out of my pocket and click on someone

Thanks maintainers. You guys are the best.

[duncathan]

Yes, let's make slipping stun you for so little time I can't even take the bike horn out of my pocket and click on someone

Thanks maintainers. You guys are the best.

Like I said, if general public opinion after a few days on live is negative; I'll buff it back up
Get mad at me if I break this promise

[MMMiracles]

People acting like water is the only slipping item.

RIP max potency banana peels

[ShadowDimentio]

It's the EASIEST slipping item. Max bananas are great, but they're behind work in botany, so they aren't used as much.

[MMMiracles]

>work
>1 beaker of mutagen can get it

Don't forget Lube or soap.

If you find it unfair or not right please look at the PR for all my reasons why water was unbalanced for what it was.

[ShadowDimentio]

>widely available anywhere on-station (sinks, watertanks, chem machines, ect)
Yes but spray bottles aren't. There are like, 3 easily available ones, and 3 locked away.

>can be applied anywhere by any reagent-holding container at an instant
I've never seen anyone do this.

>requires no prep-work unlike every single other stun past "I can fill a spraybottle/beaker/bucket up at a nearby water source"
Stunrods don't take preperation, they take like two seconds to build

>unlike every other slip or stun, its barely noticable (don't tell me you're capable of multi-tasking between combat, inventory management, and able to notice a slightly highlighted tile during a clusterfuck situation)
In a clusterfuck situation any stun in the game is better than slipping UNLESS you're trying to chase them, which is the only time it's better.

>guaranteed push on a person, causes slight brute damage and forces the slipped to throw whatever is in their hands away from them
Brute damage is irrelevant, and the throwing thing isn't that useful compared to them dropping it from a stunrod. Also what idiot holds their weapon when chasing someone, that's just asking for a disarm

Basically

Stunrod
+Stun on hit
+Easy to make
+Rechargeable all over the place
-Have to melee
-Low power capacity

Water Bottle
+Stun if they run over the tile
+Spammable
-Can be avoided by walking
-Can stun yourself if not careful
-Can't stun people if they're aware
-Loud

[Amelius]

>work
>1 beaker of mutagen can get it

Don't forget Lube or soap.

If you find it unfair or not right please look at the PR for all my reasons why water was unbalanced for what it was.

The fact is, the majority voted not for 'a nerf at the current proposed values', but whether or not to nerf slips at all. There is a massive difference between the two, and you are confusing the latter for the former, yet we pushed the PR anyway with slightly less retarded values.

If the poll was something like 'how long should slips stun for', we'd notice that very few people actually support your proposed values, and more people support closer to past values. 'Nerfing slips' (yes) encompasses everything below 4/2 extending to 1/1, whereas 'no', only encompassess the old values of 4/2, yet it was still ruled in majority, but we still nerfed them to the ground.

Reading comprehension, motherfucker.

[CPTANT]

rip prisoners actually having a method of overcoming guards in perma.

[TheNightingale]

What is soap?

[Saegrimr]

Soap ironically was nerfed long ago by another particular coder to be equal to water.

[MMMiracles]

The fact is, the majority voted not for 'a nerf at the current proposed values', but whether or not to nerf slips at all. There is a massive difference between the two, and you are confusing the latter for the former, yet we pushed the PR anyway with slightly less retarded values.

If the poll was something like 'how long should slips stun for', we'd notice that very few people actually support your proposed values, and more people support closer to past values. 'Nerfing slips' (yes) encompasses everything below 4/2 extending to 1/1, whereas 'no', only encompassess the old values of 4/2, yet it was still ruled in majority, but we still nerfed them to the ground.

but we still nerfed them to the ground.

>but we still nerfed them to the ground

I'm assuming the basis for an item being of any value is a definite line between long enough to cuff or not?

Jesus people its like you never heard of a 'follow up' when it comes to incapacitating someone.

The whole 'the poll didn't show what the nerf actually is!!' is a retarded statement considering literally anyone could click on the PR link and look at the whopping 1-line change to see what happened. If people were voting 'yes' or 'no' without actually looking at the proposed changes then its not my fault.

Water being as viable as it was with as much convenience to obtain and use was retarded, as it essentially out-shined every other method of slipping.

[Zilenan91]

It didn't just outshine any form of slipping, it outshined every form of stunning. Tasers only have 5 shots. Space Cleaner sprayers have 25, and each spray of 10 units of stunned for one less second than a literal bolt of electricity??? It was retarded.

[Amelius]

The whole 'the poll didn't show what the nerf actually is!!' is a retarded statement considering literally anyone could click on the PR link and look at the whopping 1-line change to see what happened. If people were voting 'yes' or 'no' without actually looking at the proposed changes then its not my fault.

So basically you're saying that 'I intentionally misguided the phrasing of the poll to drive extra votes in my direction. If they didn't fully explore the PR and so forth, and didn't answer the question dishonestly on purpose, it isn't my fault. (i.e. if they support a slip nerf but not to the extent you propose, such as what a couple of people responded here, it's then THEIR fault if they answer the poll honestly). Also my opinion is more valid than the majority, and a majority voting for 'no' is still a vote for slashing the stun in half anyway'.

Anyways, perma'd prisoners now have zero ways of breaking out now. Water is useless, you can't even strip and item from them, and tabling is useless. Soap has a stun equivalent to water, so that's useless too. Perma is now unescapable. Good job.

Edit: Also, democracy only matters from your perspective iff it's in your favour, otherwise democracy is irrelevant. In fact, you seemed VERY confident that the majority wanted such a severe nerf, when that is simply not true, based on the obfuscated, vague polling still winding up with a clear majority against it. These days, it seems a majority against a nerf is not sufficient, you require a supermajority otherwise it'll pass through anyway.

God, just fuck this server already. It gives me headaches reading both of your dreck.

[Zilenan91]

[MMMiracles]

I mean if you're gonna misconstrue my words then yes that's exactly what I said about the poll.

Its literally a 1-line change and if people are stupid enough to vote on a poll without looking at what the poll supports then I think we have bigger problems in this community than the stun time of a puddle of water.

Perma is still well escapable. Water wasn't the key factor in 99% of prison escapes. It was a mixture of third party support, preparation, or other (security incompetence). The same officer that was dumb enough to let himself get slipped without at least getting a call for help out is probably the same officer dumb enough to get tabled by said prisoner.

I wasn't confident in people wanting this nerf as its pretty fucking obvious from the poll and the PR that the reaction was mixed. A vocal minority and 9/12 vote on a server that caps on 80-90 average on a WEEKDAY is far from a 'majority vote'.

It was advertised on the server multiple times, both this thread and the PR. If people didn't give enough of a shit to voice their opinion past the 3-4 who were constant about it, then I guess thats just how democracy works, isn't it?

[lumipharon]

This merge was dumb.

After constant fucking bitching for literally years about mergin shitty PR's, we finally have a system to test shitty PR's, so people on the live server can say they're shit so it never actually gets merged, yet we're ignoring the system and shit gets merged anyway. Why?

The only terrible change that actually ever got reverted that I caneven remember is steelrifles, and that took months of eye gouging and constant changes to try avoid a revert.
We're still stuck with dozens of changes that we were promised "can be reverted", but of course never were.

[MMMiracles]

In duncathan we trust.

[Incomptinence]

Well doing a rough headcount of commentators in your pull we appear by my reading have 18 individuals clearly against the change (a fair few of whom don't like slips but think you went too far), four people taking the piss in ways that don't lend support to either side, eight in favour and one guy I just couldn't figure out fully. In the thread we have more mixed results but the result is in the negative 13 against, 9 for and one suggestion without weighing in. I may be wrong in this poor counting / misreading a comment etc just having a look through. As you know you also lost the poll even if the margin wasn't "big" enough for some. I can't really find a place where you won majority support and I think you are just imagining it. Sever polls are still a thing if you want to use them but please stop pretending it was just 4 people speaking against this that is absurd. Why does constantly posting matter do you think I changed my mind in the meantime to support you silently? Sheesh.

[TheNightingale]

Water was absurdly powerful before, for its availability. I do think we need to make soap actually worth something, though - as a slip, they're harder to get than water, and more obvious. Maybe keep water nerfed (or buff it a little, but not as much as it was pre-nerf), but revert soap changes to a second or two more?

[Zilenan91]

I wouldn't mind buffing soap by a second or two tbh. You can pick it up, unlike water, so you just have to stand next to it and click on it to counter it.

[duncathan]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12976