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Free korAlso oranges is the hero tg needs
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Free korWow it sure is reassuring to see headmins do nothing when a maintainer tries to remove a major config option under the cover of a misleading poll because they don't want to get too stressed out. They sure have the server's best interests at heart! I guess they're too exhausted from making milquetoast policy rulings and avoiding any change to the status quo, God forbid someone notices they even exist. If Orange's goal is to undermine the perceived authority of headmins and make them look like useless figureheads, it's definitely working. Another couple jabs and we'll be ready to rally around a strong man, anyone who can actually get things done, to overthrow them and take charge.Arianya wrote:My opinion on it is that we've had 2 polls in the past 2 years and both have come out in favour of keeping them, and nothing substantive has changed in the meantime that justifies another poll.Any admin can access unfiltered poll results, I believe, and even if we can't I'm sure MSO would call oranges out on it if he faked poll results. I haven't seen any headmins comments on this yet (they might've but I'm not going through discord looking for it).
That said I'm refusing to engage in the topic any more then I have to because it's pretty clearly oranges fishing for reactions.
Useless figurehead stuff aside, this is a serious issue. The poll should be worded in a manner that actually describes the change people are voting on, otherwise you're just taking advantage of the fact that 90% of the playerbase does not browse github, the forums, or keep up with /teegee/station drama.Grazyn wrote: Yes, the poll is misleading. This is the text: "Do you want felinids to remain in /tg/ as a chooseable species"
It looks like it's asking if you want cats to stay as a (roundstart) chooseable species, except that the PR is actually going to remove cats from the code entirely. It's not just a config option being turned off, that can eventually be turned on again. If this goes through, cats are gone for good. Forever. Poll doesn't really convey this.
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the poll gains a majority of people who "do not want Felinds to be a chooseable species", then that would ONLY justify any PR or config option that simply removes the ability to start as a Catperson at round start, it should NOT remove the ability to become one via other in game methods.BeeSting12 wrote:Useless figurehead stuff aside, this is a serious issue. The poll should be worded in a manner that actually describes the change people are voting on, otherwise you're just taking advantage of the fact that 90% of the playerbase does not browse github, the forums, or keep up with /teegee/station drama.Grazyn wrote: Yes, the poll is misleading. This is the text: "Do you want felinids to remain in /tg/ as a chooseable species"
It looks like it's asking if you want cats to stay as a (roundstart) chooseable species, except that the PR is actually going to remove cats from the code entirely. It's not just a config option being turned off, that can eventually be turned on again. If this goes through, cats are gone for good. Forever. Poll doesn't really convey this.
The issue with this argument is that they aren't furry content inherrently, catgirls originate off of anime and manga and japanese culture as a whole. The furry content argument has been used by people who dislike it as a strawman because it's easier to scream about fucking 4ries than it is to justify hating weeaboo content on a server derived from an anime and manga imageboard.Steelpoint wrote:It makes logical sense there is a lot of drama surrounding Catpeople.
Historically (in Internet and SS13 terms), anything that has to do with 'Furry' content is a whirlwind of drama and conflict.
I believe Catpeople get most of the pressure simply due to how weird they are, and how poorly and barebones they are implemented in comparison to other non-Human species we have.
Pretty much this. A space game needs alien races and non-humans but people here are fucking freaks who can't handle one thing with no direction in leadership to ever actually carry decisions for the long-term one direction or the other with a plan.Lumbermancer wrote: To be precise, people (myself included) didn't want to have lizards as a standard playable race, not removed altogether. I was mocked for using slippery slope argument, but here we are, after I was proven right at least five times.
And lizards always were a part of tgstation in some capacity, or at least as far back in time I can recall.
As for the Catpeople, I really don't care anymore. Any aesthetic/lore integrity these servers had, has been thrown into trash long time ago. And I can handle dozens of nyaafags, if Mei Ling can still be Mei Ling.
However one could argue our relationship with /tg/ is purely just in the title only. Furthermore, I do not believe the concept of catpeople being /tg/ content, and that they are furry content, has to be mutually exclusive. They can be both, and just because something has /tg/ roots does not inherently justify its existenceKarp wrote:-snip-
He reopened the PR for the poll so I'm assuming he plans on merging it if the poll goes against keeping felinids as a roundstart race. I also don't understand why this poll will "definitively" decide this as oranges said on the PR. (https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -427220037). Why did the last poll not definitively put it to bed, or the one before that? Don't give me some bullshit like "third time's a charm", that's just an excuse you'll always use to keep doing it until you finally win after tiring everyone else out on it.Steelpoint wrote: Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the poll gains a majority of people who "do not want Felinds to be a chooseable species", then that would ONLY justify any PR or config option that simply removes the ability to start as a Catperson at round start, it should NOT remove the ability to become one via other in game methods.
The last part of your second sentence reads like a corporate email complete with buzzwords. Please change it so I can understand it. I think the gist of what you're saying is that the codebase needs "leadership", except felinids were merged when we had leadership so I can only assume you meant leadership that agrees with your views.Gamarr wrote: Pretty much this. A space game needs alien races and non-humans but people here are fucking freaks who can't handle one thing with no direction in leadership to ever actually carry decisions for the long-term one direction or the other with a plan.
The reason he's mentioning that it's come from /tg/ is because everyone acts like catpeople (or their players) came from some other place on the internet when it's been here all along.Steelpoint wrote: However one could argue our relationship with /tg/ is purely just in the title only. Furthermore, I do not believe the concept of catpeople being /tg/ content, and that they are furry content, has to be mutually exclusive. They can be both, and just because something has /tg/ roots does not inherently justify its existence
Being a felinid gives a player no gameplay benefits, it only has downsides. Other than that its purely cosmetic.Steelpoint wrote:I do accept the argument some people use of the presence of cat ears/tails being in game for a long time, but the critical difference there being those were aesthetic items. Its akin to adding a new job role called the 'Aristocrat' just because we have akin clothing in the clothing vendor, but I digress.Karp wrote:-snip-
Except "felinids" were not even a thing until fairly recently. It was "put cat ears or tail on your human" before that. This is important fact, if you want to discuss the origins of the catgirl as a >fetish content.BeeSting12 wrote:except felinids were merged when
Do lizards have a mechanical disadvantage? Or just an RP one where you get shit on for being a gross lizard.Steelpoint wrote:I believe any non-Human species by default needs to be inferior to a Human (outside of antagonist/event species) just to be in the game. The concept that a species has major or minor downsides thus that justifies its existence does not hold merit in my opinion.
The issue with Catpeople is purely an aesthetic and personal choice one, not one of mechanics.
They get fucked more by cold tempsWarbossLincoln wrote:anecdotal but I've yet to have a positive experience with a cat person player. It's usually 5 minutes of them spamming baby talk with 1 hand while they jerk off with the other until I throw them in the brig for being annoying.
Do lizards have a mechanical disadvantage? Or just an RP one where you get shit on for being a gross lizard.Steelpoint wrote:I believe any non-Human species by default needs to be inferior to a Human (outside of antagonist/event species) just to be in the game. The concept that a species has major or minor downsides thus that justifies its existence does not hold merit in my opinion.
The issue with Catpeople is purely an aesthetic and personal choice one, not one of mechanics.
This is why: configs are entirely under the control of the server, i.e. headmins. Sure, they can make polls to see what the community wants, but at the end of the day they are the ones who decide to turn a config option on or off, and even if they decide to disable them, the decision can be reversed by the next headmins after a few months. Config options also allow people to host their own server with their own configs, so if the main server has cats turned off, someone can still host his private one with cats enabled.BeeSting12 wrote:Why did the last poll not definitively put it to bed, or the one before that? Don't give me some bullshit like "third time's a charm", that's just an excuse you'll always use to keep doing it until you finally win after tiring everyone else out on it.
which is kinda scientifically wonky in and of itself since reptiles are capable of operating in a wider range of temperatures than mammals, and their ideal is temp is below that of mammalsWarbossLincoln wrote:I didn't know cold affected them more than humans. When I think about it yeh, cold actually does fuck me up as a lizard really fast compared to a human.
Catpeople actually do have a small downside outside of being non-human to asimov AI's, they take increased hearing damage.Steelpoint wrote:I believe any non-Human species by default needs to be inferior to a Human (outside of antagonist/event species) just to be in the game. The concept that a species has major or minor downsides thus that justifies its existence does not hold merit in my opinion.
The issue with Catpeople is purely an aesthetic and personal choice one, not one of mechanics.
Dr_bee wrote:Catpeople actually do have a small downside outside of being non-human to asimov AI's, they take increased hearing damage.Steelpoint wrote:I believe any non-Human species by default needs to be inferior to a Human (outside of antagonist/event species) just to be in the game. The concept that a species has major or minor downsides thus that justifies its existence does not hold merit in my opinion.
The issue with Catpeople is purely an aesthetic and personal choice one, not one of mechanics.
I miss the meme testmerge that made laser pointers stun them, that was a fun few days.
Catpeople as a genetic freak human sub-species is fine to me. Slap on some lore about them being decendants of illegal gene mod users and I would like them better.
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Felinids wrote:Felinids are a strain of Abhumans that reside on a very pimpish name for a planet; Carlos McConnell. They go by the scientific name Homo sapiens cattus. They are on the short list of 'tolerated abhuman strains' maintained by the Administratum, which means that at one point in the story of the Nanotrasen someone high up (probably an Admin with a furry fetish) decided they were a-okay and did not need to get purged (yet).
Felinids are humans who have had their genomes spliced with genetic sequences derived from various species of Terran felines, and they possess many physical felinoid traits like extended canine teeth.
That was a funny test merge and I wish it had been fully merged.Dr_bee wrote:Catpeople actually do have a small downside outside of being non-human to asimov AI's, they take increased hearing damage.Steelpoint wrote:I believe any non-Human species by default needs to be inferior to a Human (outside of antagonist/event species) just to be in the game. The concept that a species has major or minor downsides thus that justifies its existence does not hold merit in my opinion.
The issue with Catpeople is purely an aesthetic and personal choice one, not one of mechanics.
I miss the meme testmerge that made laser pointers stun them, that was a fun few days.
Catpeople as a genetic freak human sub-species is fine to me. Slap on some lore about them being decendants of illegal gene mod users and I would like them better.
Lazengann wrote:Catgirls are a creepy fetish, like "normal people intimidate me, I want a girlfriend with the personality of an easily entertained animal that gets attached to anyone who feeds it"
to be fair "the personality of an easily entertained animal that gets attached to anyone who feeds it attention" could describe a lot of habitual internet usersiamgoofball wrote:Lazengann wrote:Catgirls are a creepy fetish, like "normal people intimidate me, I want a girlfriend with the personality of an easily entertained animal that gets attached to anyone who feeds it"
we already did thatXeroxemnas wrote:Idea: instead of banning an entire race just ban Shezza from everything for being an aspie and ruining it for everyone else who isn't autistic.
Include the discord and github too please. I hate the 24/7 cycle of autism.iksyp wrote:we already did thatXeroxemnas wrote:Idea: instead of banning an entire race just ban Shezza from everything for being an aspie and ruining it for everyone else who isn't autistic.
Xeroxemnas wrote:Include the discord and github too please. I hate the 24/7 cycle of autism.iksyp wrote:we already did thatXeroxemnas wrote:Idea: instead of banning an entire race just ban Shezza from everything for being an aspie and ruining it for everyone else who isn't autistic.
Is Shezza the Timothy Leary of catgirls?Xeroxemnas wrote:Idea: instead of banning an entire race just ban Shezza from everything for being an aspie and ruining it for everyone else who isn't autistic.
I remember the first poll, I also remember thinking that having the poll on both servers was a low blow aimed at crippling the cat vote because bagil was the low pop server at the time, and since sybil didn't have cats enabled, I assumed that most sybilians would've voted against cats. I was actually surprised that cats won anyway.TehSteveo wrote:The sad truth is if the previous polls reflected a no vote; certain coders would have used it as justification back then to remove them more so. They'd especially had more power considering catpeople's features were just add-ons to humans and have only been recently been fleshed out further adding organs for them. Beyond that they were technically humans, but server wise we made them non-human.
Needless to say, this dance is getting repetitive. I originally did the first catpeople poll. Little background on the history of this as I inherited the drama during my headmin term after LeoZ infamously disabled them alongside Lizards. The lizards were turned back on but the cats were not. At the time, cat features were just a special incentive that was a "Bagil exclusive" feature when Bagil was the low pop server that struggled. The community as it turns out doesn't like things that you give them taken away, especially if they may in fact enjoy the thing you taken away. As such I made the poll in a manner that would enabled them or disabled them for both servers as I wanted to end any server favoritism and have the configs standardized more or less.
The second poll I'm not sure about. I'm sue LeoZ convinced Joan about it and/or there was another PR that attempted to remove them hence a server poll to "silence the issue once and for all." Yet three years later we're still here doing this dance again.
Well, at the time it was more that both Sybil and Bagil were actually very equal in populations with Bagil at times overtaking Sybil. It was during the phase that the population shift happened and Sybil was honestly bleeding and/or becoming the new medium/low pop server. It didn't make sense for Bagil to keep a unique feature when it was becoming the "high pop" server. There was nothing about setting up the vote for it to fail by having both servers participate. One the things I said I was going to do during my headmin term was cull the internal server factional mentality such as Bagil vs Sybil; part of that was unifying the config settings as to make things fair. That involved deciding the fate of the cat features. Needless to say the yes vote won and people on Sybil were enjoying said feature. I'm going to say plenty people voted yes for a feature that was denied for them or they may have experienced during the teeter-tottering of chasing Bagil or Sybil on who had the higher pops. I can tell you, after the poll they were enabled or ought to be enabled the whole time during my headmin term. If they got disabled it was in error or someone with DB access fucking around during my time that I'd rectify when I saw anything.Grazyn wrote:I remember the first poll, I also remember thinking that having the poll on both servers was a low blow aimed at crippling the cat vote because bagil was the low pop server at the time, and since sybil didn't have cats enabled, I assumed that most sybilians would've voted against cats. I was actually surprised that cats won anyway.TehSteveo wrote:The sad truth is if the previous polls reflected a no vote; certain coders would have used it as justification back then to remove them more so. They'd especially had more power considering catpeople's features were just add-ons to humans and have only been recently been fleshed out further adding organs for them. Beyond that they were technically humans, but server wise we made them non-human.
Needless to say, this dance is getting repetitive. I originally did the first catpeople poll. Little background on the history of this as I inherited the drama during my headmin term after LeoZ infamously disabled them alongside Lizards. The lizards were turned back on but the cats were not. At the time, cat features were just a special incentive that was a "Bagil exclusive" feature when Bagil was the low pop server that struggled. The community as it turns out doesn't like things that you give them taken away, especially if they may in fact enjoy the thing you taken away. As such I made the poll in a manner that would enabled them or disabled them for both servers as I wanted to end any server favoritism and have the configs standardized more or less.
The second poll I'm not sure about. I'm sue LeoZ convinced Joan about it and/or there was another PR that attempted to remove them hence a server poll to "silence the issue once and for all." Yet three years later we're still here doing this dance again.
Of course, the poll was ignored because cats were quickly and silently disabled on sybil again, which confirmed my opinion that the original poll was really held on both servers just to make cats lose. They stayed disabled for years I think, but it doesn't seem to be the case now, you can currently join as cat on sybil.
It just shows how polls are a sad joke, ignored or kept as holy commandments written in stone, whichever is more convenient.
Despite me not really disliking catpeople, let's say I wanted them gone:Shezza wrote:Remember that time where sybil was extremely low pop due to all the catpeople moving to bagil?
And when we unified configs again it suddenly got pop.
there are way more lizards than cats on sybil now actuallyShezza wrote:Remember that time where sybil was extremely low pop due to all the catpeople moving to bagil?
And when we unified configs again it suddenly got pop.
Timmy's LSD cult is pretty much the cause why acid is banned everywhere nowDemonFiren wrote:except tim leary was p gud
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