[POLL] Goon chem

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:58 am #61009

Bottom post of the previous page:

Cipher3 wrote: Alternatively, you could do what literally everyone does after cloning and enter the sleepers, which simplifies that to a mannitol-mutadone-cryox mix that will fix all your problems because cryoxadone is now clonexadone anyways.

Wait, this means cryo mix is literally dead. Before you could play with the cryox/clonex ratio, put in various healing chems for better results. Now it's literally just 'toss in the cryox beaker at round start, fuck the chemist'.

Let me repeat that.

CRYO DOESN"T EVEN HAVE TO BE SET UP ANYMORE.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:03 am #61012

We're 44-6 in favor of Goonchem reversion, with 4 abstaining, as of writing

But it won't be reverted, of course!

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:49 am #61032

It's terrible.

Chemistry didn't need to be made more complicated. It was already balanced between something someone couldn't jump right in and do first time on the server, but something that didn't take actual autism to be comfortable with and learn.

To put it bluntly, this is a goddamn game and shit doesn't need to be this complicated.

Furthermore, having it this involved means people will have more catastrophic accidents which kill other players while genuinely being able to say "I didn't mean to!". This is bad, in and of itself, as others shouldn't be made to be bystanders for your own fuckups while learning something. Case in point: a round that just happened on Basil where a bunch of superhot death gas poured out of chem breaking all the windows and killing a large number of people.

What makes this especially shitty is that players can do this intentionally while claiming to just be inept...and with the steps this needlessly complicated there's really no way of telling the difference between people who are screwing up and people who are doing it on purpose.

Revert this please. This was not a contribution to the game.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:52 am #61035

I'll say it again and again
This was not something that should have been merged as hastily as it was
you can't just rip this shit from goon, a RADICALLY DIFFERENT codebase than ours with RADICALLY DIFFERENT BALANCE
and then tear out our OWN chems
and expect it to go fine
fuck you at this point if you defend this honestly holy shit.

Aleph · Post by **Aleph** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:32 am #61049

danno wrote:I'll say it again and again
This was not something that should have been merged as hastily as it was
you can't just rip this shit from goon, a RADICALLY DIFFERENT codebase than ours with RADICALLY DIFFERENT BALANCE
and then tear out our OWN chems
and expect it to go fine
fuck you at this point if you defend this honestly holy shit.

I would think the coders would of known better by not because this isn't the first time we were here

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:14 am #61062

it was merged in like a day and so was the removal of normal chems
like wtf, that kind of shit doesnt just happen for no reason

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:38 am #61067

Goon chem has a ton of potential in replacing our current shitty system

But there's no way anyone is going to revert this because it's so fucking strung out over like 5 prs now and it would take a long time and effort

My best suggestion is to tell goof to stop touching the code and let someone experienced balance this stuff, especially patches, which totally ruined md imo

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:43 am #61068

An0n3 wrote:-Snip-

Can incidents like these allow players to have actual say in what the coders decided to force upon us now? Updates like this should definitely have player polling and testing before any of it is implemented. Because we've had a few gameplay changing updates added in that've received backlash and usually were never fixed

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:07 am #61074

RG4 wrote:
An0n3 wrote:-Snip-
Can incidents like these allow players to have actual say in what the coders decided to force upon us now? Updates like this should definitely have player polling and testing before any of it is implemented. Because we've had a few gameplay changing updates added in that've received backlash and usually were never fixed

You ask me that like I could just wave my hand and make it so.

You ask me that like I wouldn't have done that months, if not years ago already.

I'll tell you what though, of your three headmins two of them have pretty extensive coder experience and one of them is even headcoder. Maybe now is a good time to approach them with your wants and I'll do what I can to help.

mikecari · Post by **mikecari** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:13 am #61076

An0n3 wrote:
To put it bluntly, this is a goddamn game and shit doesn't need to be this complicated.

This this this 1000 times this. TG chem was never meant to be fucking rocket science. No one wants to play chem or medbay anymore because this shit is way too complicated and takes way too long to produce drugs.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:22 am #61077

mikecari wrote:
An0n3 wrote:
To put it bluntly, this is a goddamn game and shit doesn't need to be this complicated.
This this this 1000 times this. TG chem was never meant to be fucking rocket science. No one wants to play chem or medbay anymore because this shit is way too complicated and takes way too long to produce drugs.

This has been a constant detriment to the game over the years.

The notion that if it's more complicated it inherently has more depth.
That if it takes longer to do it'll be more rewarding.

And in the short term, when your face is stuck right up against it it kinda seems that way. What's another two minutes of work when the round already takes so long to play out anyway?

But here's the rub: all this shit adds up and makes rounds like 90 minutes+ when the average round used to be over and done with in 45 minutes. A major contributor for why people get so bent out of shape about getting killed now, why it's so super serious about who can validly kill whom or if you got killed for invalid reasons, is because people don't want to sit out for fucking ever while everyone goes through layers of research or slowly mines resources etc. etc. etc.

If you ask me the biggest underlying cause for why the server has changed so much over the years it's because the rounds drag on for so long and so living or dying is much more precious. That changed everyone's attitudes a lot; you can't just laugh off someone beating you to death with a toolbox because now you don't get to play for over an hour or more.

And nobody asked for this. Nobody jumped up and said "Hey we like this game could you extend these rounds though? They're too short!" It's feature creep and people adding stuff in the name of depth. And periodically we'll stop and the topic will come up like "Hey how do we make the game more lethal, how do we take away some of the healing stuff to balance this all again?" because people know it's fucked and there's nothing to be done about it.

Most rounds take at least 90 minutes now. Mark my words if shit keeps on like this in a year rounds will probably last 120 to 150 minutes on average and people will be that much angrier when they die and take everything that much more seriously.

I see people complaining when a round is over in 40 minutes because the station has gone to shit or the antags all got robusted. B-but I barely got to do any research! Don't call the shuttle!

It makes me want to scream.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:48 am #61096

paprika wrote:Goon chem has a ton of potential in replacing our current shitty system

But there's no way anyone is going to revert this because it's so fucking strung out over like 5 prs now and it would take a long time and effort

My best suggestion is to tell goof to stop touching the code and let someone experienced balance this stuff, especially patches, which totally ruined md imo

Don't we just have to delete all the Chemistry-Goon files and restore an earlier version of Chemistry-Reagents? I have an intact version of it if that's what you need.

Wait, we'd still have to revert all the calls that were made for the bottles and items in medbay.

Shit.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:25 am #61106

paprika wrote:which totally ruined md imo

which totally ruined md objectively*

seriously though can goofball just go

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:38 am #61151

Yeah I mean, I was (and still am) all for changing up the medical, and by extension, chem system, But I never liked the idea of simply porting such a significant piece of code and just overwriting what we had.
Ideally a new system would need to be carefully planned out, then added in chunks, with shit like the underlying mechanics (like addiction for example) being added before any actual feature changes.
Of course numbers was sort of doing this... for fuck how many years, and looking at his unfinished work, it was complex as fuck. And all the while he stonewalled anyone from doing any changes to chem because he was 'working on it'.

I'd like to see this reverted, and then maybe we could try figure out what direction we want to go in terms if medical and chem, before making big ass changes that fuck lots of people off.
Goonchem has lots if interesting ideas and features that can be used/take inspiration from, but nah, not a straight port, we're too different from goon.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:17 am #61158

paprika wrote: But there's no way anyone is going to revert this because it's so fucking strung out over like 5 prs now and it would take a long time and effort

It is super fucked up that I know from first hand experience that you are probably only exagerating a tiny bit.

But if that was the case and the coder team leadership can't actually get it reverted then there is a bigger problem at play with the coder team than chems that would necesitate the admin team taking a very serious look at the relationship between coderbus and adminbus and its dynamic. If the coder team is capable of recognizing something being so fundementally flawed but also is too lazy to revert 5 PRs to instantly fix it we come to a point where they really can't... be the coder team anymore because they are so dysfunctional that basic tasks are impossible.

We are not fully at the point where coderbus is completly and utterly unable to function as a development team yet, which is good because once that happens stuff is going to get very ugly very fast.

Iamgoofball deleted post wrote:Fuck you players

I feel like we can't not talk about this. I don't know what the original post contained but acting like a hurt child because people felt like you broke a ton of stuff extremely fast because you were stuborn, or worse you broke a ton of stuff as fast as possible to make it feel vital, a tactic I have seen in play in coderbus before from the likes of erro, just shows you shouldn't be allowed near the code project. Controversial changes are a thing, they happen, look at yellow gloves back in the days of old. But this sort of reaction really says a lot.

Lumbermancer · Post by **Lumbermancer** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:36 pm #61192

Pennwick wrote:I think the idea was TGchem was too simple. 20u of Bicaradine, Kelotine, or Anti tox would heal 100 of that type of damage. 20u of Tricord could heal about 40 of all damage types. None of these chems were more than 6 clicks. No side effects or restrictions to any of them. Just have your paitent swallow a pill and forget. I'm guessing it was felt there were no nuances to it, something to make the medical jobs a bit more exciting. Sleepers compounded this issue by making 2 of those chems available in unlimited supply and ointment and burn packs could quickly and easily bring a paitent out of crit and were abundant. As long as the cryo mix was taken care of at shift start you hardly needed the chemists.

Why not modify Star Trek, if people want it to feel more weighty and involving? Add addictions. Maybe reduce effectiveness of pills over injections, making them more for lesser ailments and in the field healing than medbay work. Nerf bruise packs and ointments, it would be EMT-tier medicine. Maybe increase the difference between tiers of medicine: make Kelotane heal only when below 50 damage, and above, only up to 50. Maybe even let Chemistry prep Autoinjectors (but it would be sleepy pen apocalpse times ten).

How about introducing some random ailments popping from time to time, akin to appendicitis, that would require separate medicine. Hell, why not let people pick chronic conditions in character creation screen for some RP (Chemistbro, I need asthma inhaler!).

You could add tons of fun shit, without turning the whole system upside down.

dezzmont · Post by **dezzmont** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:11 pm #61224

Goonchem has definitively shown that nerfing packs and ointment is an awful idea. It is clear that the health (Heh) of medic gameplay is more primary than chemistry gameplay.

Timbrewolf · Post by **Timbrewolf** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:33 pm #61248

TGchem was complicated enough that you couldn't do it in the middle of combat but not so complicated that it was prone to errors or took forever to do.

It was exactly what a game like this needed. Rather than trying to over complicate it because another server does it differently, we should be changing other departments and functions to be balanced and expedient in the way that TGchem is.

Speaking as someone who is studying chemical engineering, goonchem is no more realistic or a simulation than TGchem is. They're both abstractions, but I would say that TGchem is at least slightly more realistic because it doesn't call for welder fuel, ash, oil, and other nonsense as regular compounds.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:42 pm #61267

An0n3 wrote: I'll tell you what though, of your three headmins two of them have pretty extensive coder experience and one of them is even headcoder. Maybe now is a good time to approach them with your wants and I'll do what I can to help.

Then how can we make it happen? Should we make an official policy discussion thread? While this whole incident is indicative of the larger issue, the disconnect between players and coders, addressing this specific instance would be a welcome start to setting things onto a course that both parties would find quite a deal more acceptable.

Code issues aside, Goofball's behavior should be nothing short of unacceptable for someone with free reign to add and subtract from the code without having to care in the slightest for how it effects the vast majority of other people playing the game. Beyond that, the fact that he refuses to change it despite concentrated and well-written feedback, only serves to be the icing on the cake. Screaming "WHY DO YOU HATE GOON!!!!!!!!!" has only served to worsen it.

I don't want people punished, I want this fixed. We had similar issues with past changes (Slowspace, etc.) and its clearly not enjoyable for anyone. I'm going to redirect HG here and hopefully, we can take steps from there.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:51 am #61442

Look at that poll just fuking revert this shit.

Goofball's a fucking idiot for pushing this so fucking fast and it doesn't fit the /tg/ playstyle. Also he pretty much ghettocoded this shit by looking at their wiki from what I heard it explains why certain chems don't match the description at all when compared to goons wiki.

The players are pissed no one really likes it other than some of the fun chemicals like Sorium and shit. Just keep the fun chemicals that add to the gameplay and remove everything else. Such as Drugs and things that have neat effects rather than totally fucking our medical healing system with your piece of shit untested coding

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:57 am #61448

Zoupy wrote:The names of the drugs are ridiculous and childish. Seriously: Krokodil and meth in the 25th century. It's like it was designed by a 15 years old kid.

Are you implying that chemical compounds cease to exist over time?

420goslingboy69 · Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:10 am

Lumbermancer wrote:
Pennwick wrote:I think the idea was TGchem was too simple. 20u of Bicaradine, Kelotine, or Anti tox would heal 100 of that type of damage. 20u of Tricord could heal about 40 of all damage types. None of these chems were more than 6 clicks. No side effects or restrictions to any of them. Just have your paitent swallow a pill and forget. I'm guessing it was felt there were no nuances to it, something to make the medical jobs a bit more exciting. Sleepers compounded this issue by making 2 of those chems available in unlimited supply and ointment and burn packs could quickly and easily bring a paitent out of crit and were abundant. As long as the cryo mix was taken care of at shift start you hardly needed the chemists.
Why not modify Star Trek, if people want it to feel more weighty and involving? Add addictions. Maybe reduce effectiveness of pills over injections, making them more for lesser ailments and in the field healing than medbay work. Nerf bruise packs and ointments, it would be EMT-tier medicine. Maybe increase the difference between tiers of medicine: make Kelotane heal only when below 50 damage, and above, only up to 50. Maybe even let Chemistry prep Autoinjectors (but it would be sleepy pen apocalpse times ten).

How about introducing some random ailments popping from time to time, akin to appendicitis, that would require separate medicine.

RNG sickness and tedium is not fun. TGchem works for a reason as it's simple stupid. We do not need over-complificiation of a system ingame which you take part in on a constant basis nor do we need rng ways to also have to deal with that. I just want to get hurt and get healed. I don't want to have deal with anything in the middle of it. I want to get back to what I'm doing. Medical is not fun. Bay medical is not fun. Roleplaying a doctor is fun. i honestly hate rng so much that fuckign teleporter that used to space you made me fucfking laugh every god damn time it teleported me into fucking space like fuck you man wtf i'm the rd i can't deal with this shit.

Furthermore, you guys should stop changing things under the premise they are "more fun". The game is already fun. The game could have zero content added in it during 2012 and it'd still be fun for years and years. Add the combat, healing, and the jobs and that's literally all you need because you can just roleplay. Please stop taking away from the game or remodeling it. It doesn't need to be remodeled. Add to the game coherently and sensibly. Make changes that keep people having fun, not making them have fun. Kor I fucking swear to God that hobbit fuck was the only one who understood this concept. Soul stones are the best addition we've ever had to this game. They are literallyLITERALLY perfectly. Try to take that same concept:
1. Does it keep people in the round or at least keep them doing something?
2. Is it simple?
2a. If it's not simple, does it reward for effort?
3. Is it easy to use and is not tedious?
3a. If it's not easy to use, does it pay out for people who have learned to master it?
4. Am I changing core aspects of the game?
4a. If so, I should probably contact the whole fucking community because as a normal, caring, empathetic, god-fearing human being I understand that everything I say and do has consequences on other people and they have contrasting ideals and opinions (as do I) which happen to be all subjective so forcing my will on others is not a good idea (as every action has a reaction), nor is it a moral one.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:53 am #61526

I have an issue with Krokodil. The whole skin falling off thing is a fanny joke, but becoming a skeleton? Seems like a bit much. As far as i can tell the drug doesn't do anything else.

On a tangentally related note, is there any way to get over drug addictions without killing yourself and cloning?

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:44 am #61555

Wyzack wrote:I have an issue with Krokodil. The whole skin falling off thing is a fanny joke, but becoming a skeleton? Seems like a bit much. As far as i can tell the drug doesn't do anything else.

On a tangentally related note, is there any way to get over drug addictions without killing yourself and cloning?

Krokodil does just cause the skin to fall off with toxin and brain damage occuring too. I kind of liked it a bit more when morphine was a component you needed to order through cargo and it was a bit more rare.

Currently addictions just stop at stage 4 and don't progress. I put a PR that fixes it yesterday but it hasn't gotten merged yet.

AnonymousNow · Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:06 pm

I'm surprised that there seems to be a small rush on Like voting within the past twelve hours - almost like a concerted effort, if you ask me - but the poll is still very much in favour of reverting the change.

Coders - revert the change.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:57 pm #61639

Pennwick wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I have an issue with Krokodil. The whole skin falling off thing is a fanny joke, but becoming a skeleton? Seems like a bit much. As far as i can tell the drug doesn't do anything else.

On a tangentally related note, is there any way to get over drug addictions without killing yourself and cloning?
Krokodil does just cause the skin to fall off with toxin and brain damage occuring too. I kind of liked it a bit more when morphine was a component you needed to order through cargo and it was a bit more rare.

Currently addictions just stop at stage 4 and don't progress. I put a PR that fixes it yesterday but it hasn't gotten merged yet.

In real life Krokodil causes tissue necrosis. This is very different than being able to live with no skin, muscles or organs. I dont really give a shit about reelisms but i just thought it was a little over the top dumb. If people disagree i will shut the fuck up about it. As a fun side note, it is not the Krok that makes your skin fall off but in fact the withdrawl

Zoupy · Post by **Zoupy** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:26 pm #61645

cedarbridge wrote:
Zoupy wrote:The names of the drugs are ridiculous and childish. Seriously: Krokodil and meth in the 25th century. It's like it was designed by a 15 years old kid.
Are you implying that chemical compounds cease to exist over time?

I doubt they would still be using a shitty homemade drug in the 25th century.

But my main problem with this change is that it doesn't do anything. Healing is even more easy. Patches heals like bruise packs and you don't even need to target a limb.
Saglu whatever solution heals more than tricord (except for toxins) and is super easy to make. Most new recipes are just useless and there's now some chemicals that have the same name but with different effect.

Also, the code is a complete mess. People may not like Paprika but at least his code is clean and he puts a lot of time in fixing descriptions and small stuff.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:56 am #61768

Zoupy wrote:snip
But my main problem with this change is that it doesn't do anything. Healing is even more easy. Patches heals like bruise packs and you don't even need to target a limb.
Saglu whatever solution heals more than tricord (except for toxins) and is super easy to make. Most new recipes are just useless and there's now some chemicals that have the same name but with different effect.

Also, the code is a complete mess. People may not like Paprika but at least his code is clean and he puts a lot of time in fixing descriptions and small stuff.

Saline-glucose heals a RANDOM amount of brute and burn. It can heal a bit more than tricord, or it might not heal at all. The new patches are mechanically better than bruisepacks, but bruisepacks stack, patches do not. I'd much rather have a stack of 5 bruisepacks than a medpack full of 5 styptic patches when they heal the same amount of damage.

On the topic of code, daily reminder that someone actually wrote

Code: Select all

((volume-(volume*2)*rem)

Let me solve for Y.
Volumex2-Volume=Volume.

Why couldn't it just read (Volume*rem)? Fuck if I know.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:06 am #61773

Wyzack wrote:
Pennwick wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I have an issue with Krokodil. The whole skin falling off thing is a fanny joke, but becoming a skeleton? Seems like a bit much. As far as i can tell the drug doesn't do anything else.

On a tangentally related note, is there any way to get over drug addictions without killing yourself and cloning?
Krokodil does just cause the skin to fall off with toxin and brain damage occuring too. I kind of liked it a bit more when morphine was a component you needed to order through cargo and it was a bit more rare.

Currently addictions just stop at stage 4 and don't progress. I put a PR that fixes it yesterday but it hasn't gotten merged yet.

In real life Krokodil causes tissue necrosis. This is very different than being able to live with no skin, muscles or organs. I dont really give a shit about reelisms but i just thought it was a little over the top dumb. If people disagree i will shut the fuck up about it. As a fun side note, it is not the Krok that makes your skin fall off but in fact the withdrawl

i actually did a research project on krokodil once
the tissue necrosis is actually caused mostly by bad needles, improper injections, and dirty product. if you somehow come across pure krokodil in a clean needle and don't stick it somewhere it shouldnt be, you probably wont become a spoogy skellyton.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:55 am #61781

Oh wow really? That is a fun fact! Krokodil is no more dangerous than hyperzine! Does it actually have any in game effect, besides the very infrequent "you feel calm" messages and the tox/drain bamage?

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:16 am #61803

Zoupy wrote:But my main problem with this change is that it doesn't do anything. Healing is even more easy. Patches heals like bruise packs and you don't even need to target a limb.
Saglu whatever solution heals more than tricord (except for toxins) and is super easy to make. Most new recipes are just useless and there's now some chemicals that have the same name but with different effect.

The problem with this is most people are pushing for that. I've seen so many questions of 'isn't saline-glucose the new tricord? Why is it so weak this isn't tricord. Buff it." The playerbase is pushing to make this change ultimately the same as it was before. For those who would consider something else more advanced a better option, they're the few who see change as good fighting against the tide of: those who don't want to change because they've gotten robust at the old system, those who don't want change because they fear change because they're pansies (and this includes most of the whiners who said it was awful immediately, despite a lot of the things they said being wrong and them not understanding that new things might work differently, that there might not be one-chemical heal-alls, etc), and that small minority who might actually have a comprehensive objective view and have decided it's not for the better.

I'm tired. Rant ended.

Pennwick · Post by **Pennwick** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:41 am #61806

No it has no beneficial effects aside from getting to be spooky.

To be honest once all the chemicals get sorted out at the base levels addiction may need some rethinking/reworking. The way it works now if you have more than x units of a drug in your system you're instantly addicted. Then when the chemical leaves your system you go through 4 stages of addiction before getting cured. Usually the lower stages seem alright, for morphine you'll drop things and get jittery. For Ephedrine you'll have shortness of breath. But the later stages always seem to involve tox damage. Its pretty minor for things like Ephedrine and Morphine. Krokodil and Crank are quite deadly. I personally think heavy stamina damage would be more applicable. Slows down a healthy person and makes someone already weak hardly able to move. This probably should be all worked out after the bigger problems are resolved.

I moved my vote from liking goonchem to abstaining. I really do want to like it but it seems like things aren't getting through. I feel the biggest problems with goonchem right now are making large orders of stypic and silver sulf is tedious, the more complex chems offer little reward for their high complexity, and Saline-Glucose is becoming the new tricord.

To 'fix' this an absolute windfall of preproduced chems were added to medbay storage and the vendors. On boxstation there are now in the vendors alone 30 50u styptic patches, 30 silver patches, 12 bottles of charcoal, 12 antihistimene bottles, 10 potassium-iodide bottles, 10 atropine bottles, 18 spaceacyllin syringes, 30 calomel syringes (Each poke has enough to purge 125u of bad toxins), 30 salbu pills, 30 10u pills of Mannitol, 16 mutadone pills, 6 crew monitors.

I don't see anything that the chemists need to do other than provide mutagen and sulfuric acid and if they feel like it make new-tricord in the form of Saline Glucose pills.

Also unfun fact. You know the new Salicylic pills that come in medkits? They're 50u and the over the overdose threshhold is 25 so the pill will actually deal damage to you for 60+ ticks.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:55 am #61820

The vendor/dispensor thing changes were pretty dumb and got pushed through pretty fast. I also question what the aim of either the chem change, or that pr is, if the result is just to stock medbay with literal tonnes of extra supplies.
Also fuck more portable crew monitors. Those things are powerful as shit, and honestly just discourage people from using sensors. With static monitors, you have someone (or an AI) tell you where/lead you to, corpses/people in trouble. Portable monitors mean people can just silently track you and murder you. Having lots of them available makes it worse.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:33 pm

They should be a CMO and HOP only item.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:08 pm #61931

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:They should be a CMO and HOP only item.

They really should. Portable crew tracking devices mess with the balance of the game a fair bit. No idea why people thought it would be a good thing.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:17 pm #61947

Adding all that stuff to the nanomeds is frankly just showing off everything wrong with this change.

Nanomeds are tool vendors, not stationary medkits. Wallmeds are, but wallmeds are rare and dont have much stock, they're supposed to be those medical cabinets you see in the breakroom full of bandaids and gauze and shit for workplace accidents. Oldnano held: Syringes, Antitox bottle, Spaceacillin syringes, analysers and a couple even more situational tools.

Replacing medbay staff with MORE FUCKING EQUIPMENT is bad. We already have a discussion of what use sleepers have when they replace doctors applying medicine, replacing chemistry with a vending machine is no better.

Hey guys, cargo declares independence on long rounds and I dont like that, why dont I make it so you can order things on your PDA and it is teleported to your department breakroom in 5 mins? Answer: you are replacing a department and reducing interaction. My complaint with sleepers is that you could build one in the lobby and fuck off as no one ever asks for a medic again. Now I just have to add a hacked vending machine to that list. Why do we need chemistry when everything they can make already exists in ABUNDANT supply? Why do we need doctors when they dont understand their supplies and just throw people into the equipment when players dont break in to do it themselves?

AnonymousNow · Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:52 am

64 players for reverting? Am I reading that right? 64?

callanrockslol · Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:34 pm

miggles wrote:
Wyzack wrote:
Pennwick wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I have an issue with Krokodil. The whole skin falling off thing is a fanny joke, but becoming a skeleton? Seems like a bit much. As far as i can tell the drug doesn't do anything else.

On a tangentally related note, is there any way to get over drug addictions without killing yourself and cloning?
Krokodil does just cause the skin to fall off with toxin and brain damage occuring too. I kind of liked it a bit more when morphine was a component you needed to order through cargo and it was a bit more rare.

Currently addictions just stop at stage 4 and don't progress. I put a PR that fixes it yesterday but it hasn't gotten merged yet.

In real life Krokodil causes tissue necrosis. This is very different than being able to live with no skin, muscles or organs. I dont really give a shit about reelisms but i just thought it was a little over the top dumb. If people disagree i will shut the fuck up about it. As a fun side note, it is not the Krok that makes your skin fall off but in fact the withdrawl
i actually did a research project on krokodil once
the tissue necrosis is actually caused mostly by bad needles, improper injections, and dirty product. if you somehow come across pure krokodil in a clean needle and don't stick it somewhere it shouldnt be, you probably wont become a spoogy skellyton.

Pure krokodil is just Desomorphine

ErikHanson · Post by **ErikHanson** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:54 pm #62678

Don't revert, shits awesome

AnonymousNow · Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:06 pm

We have a massive majority wanting to revert this, and I'm afraid that there'll be attempts to bury it. It's a very definite verdict, so don't let it be ignored.

Snakebutt · Post by **Snakebutt** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:10 am #62840

too bad there are ZERO rumblings on git about pulling goon features other than laser eyes, goof just gets more shit approved regardless of what we think. Do we need to start bitching him out in OOC whenever he plays or something, be mature and alert SoS?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:29 am #62939

I'm glad I made a poll to show you people just how little polls matter.

This isn't the fault of the coders, polls don't necessitate anything.

Do you like goon chem or not