Cybernetic Implants

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:42 pm #77712

Provide feedback for the new Cybernetic Implants here. This thread is mostly to collect constructive negative feedback so things can be fixed. Specify what you think is bad in detail, if your only message is "it's bad" then don't bother.

If you have an idea for an implant, feel free to post it also.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:38 pm #77717

I actually haven't put them to great use myself, but I do find the concept pretty cool.

Sadly, however, I have to question if Thermal/Xray implants should be anything beyond admin-spawn, especially thermal. There is little reason (In my mind) that R&D should be able to replicate a signature and highly powerful traitor item, regardless of the cost. This is not the case with anything else outside of the Universal Supressor, which is an accessory. The marked differences between NT R&D tech and Syndicate uplink tech are enjoyable and I'd rather not see them merge.

Granted, I have yet to see either implant become a massive issue for powergaming - However, I would like to remind you that Detective Thermals were removed for a very good reason. Seeing people through walls is impossibly powerful and was just used for "lel guess the antag" depending on what you could see in your first trot through maint. Xray is somewhat diff from a balance perspective in that it was gated behind RNG genetics. Not sure how I feel about it being an implant.

In terms of ideas? Paprika was coding a Multitool implant ages ago that would allow you to pulse regardless of what's in your hand. That sounds like a useful as fuck low level implant.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:39 pm #77718

Actually make augmentations have a use outside of making Security Officers incredibly robust. Currently Augs at the moment are just borderline useless and only used by a hand full of players the only real benefits are being:
Immune to pressure
Harder to kill
Using welders and wires to fix yourself
Being HEAVILY vulnerable to EMPs
Can be considered a Silicon-Human if the AI and Borgs like fun.

Lets have implants and augs work in tandem with each other, each with certain pros and cons of course.
Implanted HUDS/Sunglasses - We asked for this
Special Antag/Combat mods only accessible to aug'd traitors/Deathsquad.
Auged arms and legs actually doing more damage when you hit someone with them
Immune to some sources of brute damage like punches and kick.
Can't reap the benefits of taking postive chems,mutations,and viruses due to being a metal monster.
Drinking space lube while aug'd allows you to move at high speeds.
Whole lotta other things.

Implants you get shit like:
Oxygen recyclers - Allows you to breathe in 0 oxygen enviroments like space or a vented room
Toxin Filter(Cannot be used with Oxygen recyclers) - Allows you to breathe in toxins such as plasma,C02,N02,any toxic gas really.
Faraday cage implant - Reduces the likely hood that an EMP from any source drains an energy item in your hand IE - Taser,E-gun,baton,power cell, and augmented players.

TheNightingale · Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:41 pm

The x-ray implant and thermal implant have the same requirements, and the x-ray does everything the thermal does and more.
X-ray implants mean Genetics is reduced to hulk, cold resistance and telekinesis, and nobody likes hulk anyway.
It's nice that you're giving a way for people to legitimately obtain thermal vision, but even if they are weak to EMP, that's rarely used. I'd advise removing x-ray (give Genetics something to do) and very high tech levels for thermals: Combat 6+, Biotech 5+ perhaps - they're immensely powerful.
Anti-drop and anti-stun are too easy to get for their power; they either need increased cost/tech levels or less power (I'd recommend the latter).
Can you still strip an item (via strip menu) from someone with an anti-drop implant active? That'd make a fair nerf; either that or dismemberment of the limb disabling the implant, when it gets added.
The anti-stun implant reduces stun times and has no downsides. As a frequent Security player, this will never end well.
The HUD implants are nice, but a way to disable them would be good, similar to the anti-drop. As well as icons in the top-right, perhaps a verb as well (in the panels or otherwise) - you can't have more than five icons at once.
I like the idea of the cooperation between medical and science; inter-departmental teamwork is fun.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:35 pm #77728

The Thermal implant should have an Illegal Tech requirement (How did you not think of this when coding it?), but require very few if any exotic materials.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:36 pm #77733

RG4 wrote:Actually make augmentations have a use outside of making Security Officers incredibly robust. Currently Augs at the moment are just borderline useless and only used by a hand full of players the only real benefits are being:
Immune to pressure
Harder to kill
Using welders and wires to fix yourself
Being HEAVILY vulnerable to EMPs
Can be considered a Silicon-Human if the AI and Borgs like fun.

Lets have implants and augs work in tandem with each other, each with certain pros and cons of course.
Implanted HUDS/Sunglasses - We asked for this
Special Antag/Combat mods only accessible to aug'd traitors/Deathsquad.
Auged arms and legs actually doing more damage when you hit someone with them
Immune to some sources of brute damage like punches and kick.
Can't reap the benefits of taking postive chems,mutations,and viruses due to being a metal monster.
Drinking space lube while aug'd allows you to move at high speeds.
Whole lotta other things.

Implants you get shit like:
Oxygen recyclers - Allows you to breathe in 0 oxygen enviroments like space or a vented room
Toxin Filter(Cannot be used with Oxygen recyclers) - Allows you to breathe in toxins such as plasma,C02,N02,any toxic gas really.
Faraday cage implant - Reduces the likely hood that an EMP from any source drains an energy item in your hand IE - Taser,E-gun,baton,power cell, and augmented players.

I don't want to touch the limb augmentations, not for now at least.

I like your suggestions for breathing implants, but not the faraday cage one. EMPs are supposed to be a hard counter to these implants.

TheNightingale wrote:The x-ray implant and thermal implant have the same requirements, and the x-ray does everything the thermal does and more.
X-ray implants mean Genetics is reduced to hulk, cold resistance and telekinesis, and nobody likes hulk anyway.
It's nice that you're giving a way for people to legitimately obtain thermal vision, but even if they are weak to EMP, that's rarely used. I'd advise removing x-ray (give Genetics something to do) and very high tech levels for thermals: Combat 6+, Biotech 5+ perhaps - they're immensely powerful.

I'll see to making X-ray harder and more costly to get. Maybe the implants can serve as a new stepping stone for R&D, currently the technology levels are limited and you can't progress without things that are really hard to obtain (like alien brains), so the implants are as high tech as they can be without making them nearly impossible to get.

Thenightingale wrote:Anti-drop and anti-stun are too easy to get for their power; they either need increased cost/tech levels or less power (I'd recommend the latter).
Can you still strip an item (via strip menu) from someone with an anti-drop implant active? That'd make a fair nerf; either that or dismemberment of the limb disabling the implant, when it gets added.
The anti-stun implant reduces stun times and has no downsides. As a frequent Security player, this will never end well.
The HUD implants are nice, but a way to disable them would be good, similar to the anti-drop. As well as icons in the top-right, perhaps a verb as well (in the panels or otherwise) - you can't have more than five icons at once.
I like the idea of the cooperation between medical and science; inter-departmental teamwork is fun.

EMPs will make you throw the items you are holding if you are equipped with Anti-Drop. Both Anti-Drop and Anti-Stun will stun you for 5-10 seconds (depending on the EMP strength) when EMPed.

I'll add buttons and verbs for toggling the HUDs.

Drynwyn wrote:The Thermal implant should have an Illegal Tech requirement (How did you not think of this when coding it?), but require very few if any exotic materials.

Thermals are super inferior to X-ray, really, but I'll add Illegal Tech to them.

Regarding X-ray and Thermal implants, I will make it so you need to DA a more costly Thermal implant in order to unlock X-ray, which will also be more costly (requiring a whole diamond to make either type). Maybe put some more implants in front of these two.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:50 pm #77734

I do not see why anyone would want thermals when Xray implants and a mutation exist. I do not feel they should be made harder or rare to get, due to it being easier to get via genetics without the drawback of being more vulnerable to EMP, which is extremely effective at silencing a target and rendering his energy weapons useless. If you are going to make them more difficult to get, please do not make it require levels that can only be gained in certain situations (Combat shotguns, alien brains, high tech traitor items). Xray from genetics would still be favored more, I imagine.

As for the brain implants, I just ask that the cauterize part of the surgery heal the massive damage done to you, as I have been put in critical by this before. A toggle for them would be nice as well.

onleavedontatme · Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:51 pm

Interesting concept but it still boils down to

-More goodies that science gets after shoving stuff in their machine
-More items used solely for combat
-More combat items that take so long to research that you won't have them in any round with antags "loud" enough to use them

Again, they're cool, they just don't add much gameplay wise other than another endgame science way to get valid kills/murderboner

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:22 pm #77752

Thermals still show everything a person wears, yes? If they could be updated to show just the thermal blob you might expect (drone camera style) maybe that would be a nice compromise? Probably a pain to do, though.

I wouldn't want all combat augs to be restricted to deathsquad/tators because it seems better when non antags have a chance to use cool stuff like that too.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:01 pm #77768

Why would anyone get thermal when you can get an xray implant?

Perhaps make it a flash protection implant

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:03 pm #77769

Xray/thermal implants are OP as shit.
Sure, xray canbe obtained through genetics, but it requires some actual effort as opposed to R&D, and well frankly, R&D already has enough OP shit without stealing things from genetics.
It also makes it laughably easy to get an xray/nvg hud combo for full vision.

Anti stun and nodrop are also OP (especially antistun, holy shit).
Like seriously, if you have a dual-sword etc, literally the biggest threat against you is someone disarming you.
Antistun makes all stuns 2 ticks, which is like, super strong, and makes arresting you almost an attempt in futility. If you are using synaps or ephedrine, you're down to all stuns being 1 tick.

The above 4 implants only serve to make you more robust at effectively no drawback. Emp's are rare as shit, no one normally carries around emp's, and the only emp's that don't rely on R&D and/or mining is the one ion rifle in the armory, which is bulky.
They wouldnt be bad as admin/antag items, but as normally obtained items they just make being a murderboner easier/not geting caught ever, because you can see everything etc.

Increasing mineral costs and/or making the research levels higher achieves literally nothing.
One half competent miner will have you literally drowning in minerals, to the point where it's only an issue if you're mass producing dozens of the things.
The only time high research is at all 'difficult' is when it requires outside intervention. IE: combat shotgun for combat 6 (only the human factor makes this anything other then 'reliably obtainable'), alium brain for whatever level that is, etc.

I'm a proponent of making certain powerful items (like the phazon an perhaps things like the thermal implant) only obtainable under uncommon, non farmable situations.
I argued that making phazons need bluespace 7, and making something like anomaly cores have origintech of bluespace 6, makes powerful shit like that an actually special thing to get, as opposed to the current rush R&D in 5 minutes, wait for minerals and you've got a phazon.
Implants requiring biotech makes sense, and having ones that are objectively super powerful shit gated behind something semi rare like an alien brain, or some new, rare item keeps them in check. Otherwise people will just rush R&D, it's not hard, and powergamers will always do that shit.

Stuff like the hud implants are perfectly fine though, since they provide utility value, not ROBUST POWERGAMER value.

TL;DR anti stun, nodrop, thermal and xray implants are all OP, either make them not R&D constructable(antag/admin only) or gated behind very high tech levels, via semi rare items.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:47 pm #77784

I am not making them antag/admin only.

callanrockslol · Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:49 pm

Someone make genetics better or remove xray from research, it makes a job most people don't bother with since the change even more useless.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:52 pm #77789

Just emphasizes how shitty genetics is currently. I will change the x-ray though.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:09 am #77799

Scott wrote:I am not making them antag/admin only.

But the consensus from literally everyone here seems to be that they need to be removed/bumped up to abnormal levels

Why take feedback if you're going to refuse to implement it? Seriously, these are problematic. Might as well remove Thermal Imaging Glasses from the uplink, no reason to buy them when you can just transfer into Science and get an implant for the cost no TCs.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:32 am #77810

I'll put it this way.

Every round where I am antag, I will get nodrop and antistun implants, xray implants an nvg huds, make lots of ephedrine (no slow downs and makes all stuns only 1 tick!) and proceed to murderbone the shit out of everything that moves.
This shit is objectively OP. It's the old hulk+dualsword+lube, or nograv+jetpack tier OP.

In terms of the stun/drop implants:

There is no REASONABLE counter.
It is very easy to obtain.
It promotes mindless murderbone instead of intelligent play.

In terms of xray/thermal implants:
Severely cuts risk/the need for intelligent play, since you can just see everything so never get snuck up on.
Xray via genetics requires a bit of effort to get, and the geneticist doesn't have ready access to nvgs. On the other hand, if you can make xray implants, you can make nvg's.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:44 am #77875

Implants aside from say top tier ones like 02toYou(Oxygen Recycler) and BreatheFree(Toxin Filter) shouldn't have any combat usefulness or give overt advantages over players who can't get access to an implant. Like Xrays,Thermals,AntiStun,etc,etc.

Other implant ideas I've had are:
VisX - Enables you to see in the dark with the range of a flash light - Utility implant, useful in any situation.
New-Tri-ment - An implant that will keep supply you with proteins and sugars through out the round as you get hungry. - Convenience Implant, reduces the need to eat, keeps you at about half-way full
BabbleFish - This implant enables you to speak with other races and understand them as well through use of special verbs! - Utility - Can be a fun toy if the crew gets turned into the monkeys or if you're turned into a monkey, the implant would allow you to speak a variety of alien dialects and decipher their texts.
PowerUp - APC in your room out of power, everything dark and scarey, engineering terrible? Don't fear, with PowerUp implant you can send a small jolt of power to any machines with a touch! - Utility implant - This can only be used give a small amount of power to machines and APCs, nothing more. Relies on your nutrition level to be effective.
These have no real draw backs or real combat usefulness at all, just sorta neat implants that can help in a pinch or just for the sake of convenience.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:22 am #77885

Make VisX literally just flashlight eyes.

LNGLY · Post by **LNGLY** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:19 pm #77908

The only think I dislike about combat implants is that there's no good indication that the holder has them. For every other robust thing, you can notice it and play around it - ah, this person has an esword sprite in their hand, better be careful! Not so with a nodrop implant or whatever.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:30 pm #77915

LNGLY wrote:The only think I dislike about combat implants is that there's no good indication that the holder has them. For every other robust thing, you can notice it and play around it - ah, this person has an esword sprite in their hand, better be careful! Not so with a nodrop implant or whatever.

I remember this being a defining reason of why someone got assblasted about the HoS's dermal patch, and removed it.

qwert · Post by **qwert** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:34 pm #77916

Pity,that there are no replacing your arm with some gunhand device. Also there should be some message for high tier implants upon examination, like this person looks deformed( as lings have for ai camo) .
Implants should be real advantage.If person takes time to obtain them and to pimp himself full of ephenedrine, he deserves damn reward.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:37 pm

RG4-

Fun fact: If you have full augmentations, you're actually immune to punching, because a punch does 5 damage and full augs reduces all brute and burn damage by 5.

LNGLY · Post by **LNGLY** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:41 pm #77920

Ideas to toy with: keep combat implants powerful, but make it so that you need a dose of synaptizine every now and then or you'll get implant rejection, like with Deus Ex HR. Maybe they don't require any synaptizine, but make you hungry more quickly.

Maybe the severity of these needs should scale based on how many implants you have.

Maybe if you receive a lot of head trauma and are unlucky the implants should get broken and produce adverse effects until they're removed, like occasional twitching/seizures.

Allohsnackbar · Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:15 pm

If any adverse affects are added, could they be mitigated slightly if an individual is loyalty implanted, with the reasoning the loyalty implant helps keep the implant in synch with the patients brain function, decreasing chance of rejection and headaches/migraines.

Actually, that could be a decent nerf to the optical implants. Occasionally, your sensors may overload from accidentally looking at something too bright ( Looking directly at a star through the walls with X-ray or thermals), or an electrical pulse (Not an EMP, just from the thing running) and you will drop the things in your hand regardless of implant, and maybe some disorientation like from that changeling screech.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:38 pm #77933

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:RG4-

Fun fact: If you have full augmentations, you're actually immune to punching, because a punch does 5 damage and full augs reduces all brute and burn damage by 5.

Oh wow, I actually didn't know that.

Saegrimr wrote:
LNGLY wrote:The only think I dislike about combat implants is that there's no good indication that the holder has them. For every other robust thing, you can notice it and play around it - ah, this person has an esword sprite in their hand, better be careful! Not so with a nodrop implant or whatever.
I remember this being a defining reason of why someone got assblasted about the HoS's dermal patch, and removed it.

Wasn't the solution to that, literally just shift-clicking the HoS to see what they were wearing? IIRC people who complained about that were the ones who never stripped the HoS,cuffed him, or clicked to see what he was wearing before attacking

Spoiler:

Difference is between the dermal patch and implant is that you could examine them to see the dermal patch and could remove it by stripping them.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:37 pm #78028

You could go with an arcing electricity overlay or something for the brain implants. You could allow a penlight or simple examine for the eye implants.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 4:38 am #78171

I picked up scientist the other day and did some stuff to max research really quickly. Noticed we had some fancy new implants in the protolathe. I was aware when I read the earliest version of the PR that these would include Med/SecHuDs, but then I saw we had xray and thermals, anti-drops and anti-stuns, and my jaw dropped.

This is insane. In particular, anti-stun. As far as I am aware, no other item in the game is capable of attaching to you permanently, being irremovable, uncounterable, and counters such a large aspect of combat to such a large extent. Not to mention that it's undetectable, meaning there is literally never a reason not to get this, and if you have even one half-decent scientist with a "guide to research" .txt and a miner that isn't completely braindead you will guaranteed see these get used. If science makes one RIPLEY, they don't even need the miner. On a list of things that are completely unbalanced, this is way, way up there, and it blows my mind that this was even considered.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome, but it should really be a 15 TC nuke op exclusive item for what it is.

Thermal implants are alright, but as others have said, xray beats them out without question, and they really are supposed to be syndicate tech. It's kind of bizarre seeing the crew have access to them, and an upgraded version of them at that.

Xray is powerful, but that's actually fine by me. Genetics could already give it to you. Sure, it's easier to get now, but whatever.

No-drop is a good idea and is fine as-is. I wouldn't mind giving it to both nuke ops and scientists. It's fairly unique and not completely unbalancing, as it can be countered and is only situational at best. Actually I would love having this for nuke ops, as it provides a way for ops to keep their gun after getting stunned.

The huds are perfectly fine.

tl;dr: thermals are weird but okay i guess, xray/huds/no-drop implants are okey dokey, brain implants would both be good for nuke ops, anti-stun is fucking absurd

Incomptinence · Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:34 am

Sec huds can detect other implants I don't see why they should not be allowed detect these. Maybe something similar should be applied to medical. I mean being a metal man should be obvious to magical scanners.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:49 am #78193

PKPenguin321 wrote:uncounterable

I hear what you are saying, but the implants are not uncounterable. Even a weak EMP will stun you if you have a brain implant (nullifies the effect of the anti-stun completely), in the case of the anti-drop it both stuns and makes you throw whatever you are holding. Eye implants will stop working and will blind you for a duration, depending on the strength of the EMP. You are almost as vulnerable as a cyborg if you have one implant installed.

In any case, I will work on the feedback. I'll try to get something done this weekend.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:16 pm #78276

Some alternative ideas for the no drop and no stun implants:

Gun platform:
Screwdriver a taser/egun/small firearm and a cyborg arm then use the gun of your choice on it (optional: use synthflesh to make it look organic). You now have a gun platform. Attach it to yourself or the patient and you now have an arm that folds out into a gun.

Pros: can't be dropped, much less conspicuous, attached energy weapons use power cells so you can just reload them instead of running to a charging station
Cons:EMPs will cause energy weapon implants to explode, extreme heat causes ballistic implants to explode.

Stand Your Ground augmentation:
Screwdriver cyborg leg, attach stimpack (ghetto alternative: syringe loaded with crank or bath salts), screw it again to secure it. Congratulations, you now have a leg that injects drugs into you! Let's you shake off the first stun or knockdown you receive. Each stun or knockdown following the first has a chance to knock you flat on your ass anyway and the chance increases each time by 10% starting at 30%.

Pros: makes you resistant to tasers and stuns, protects you from being stunned
Cons: strictly temporary, syringes need to be swapped out after use, using bath salts and crank carry all all the detriments of the drugs.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:58 pm #78284

These are not limb augmentations.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:43 pm #78294

And there I was, so tempted to make a skul-gun aug suggestion.

Powered by injecting lemon-lime soda into it.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:55 pm #78297

DemonFiren wrote:And there I was, so tempted to make a skul-gun aug suggestion.

Powered by injecting lemon-lime soda into it.

please add baleful eye

thank you

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:30 pm #78340

Again, emping is not a valid counter for this, considering other then the ONE ion rifle, R&D is the only source of non antag emp's (except the uranium/iron reaction, but who's going to have that except science and mining, who have no grinders).

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:38 pm #78346

That is true.

Science does have a grinder, by the way, in Xenobio.

Also I'd appreciate some more ideas for implants (not limb augs).

EndgamerAzari · Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:00 pm

An internal air tank/life support system might be cool. Or air filters, acting sort of like an implanted gas mask.

Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:14 pm

Scott wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:uncounterable
EMP

The EMP counter's fairly controversial, as EMPs are in very limited supply every round and are only available to certain antags. This is the same issue in the thread about helmet-cameras. EMPs are a good counter, but they're not nearly available enough ever for them to be useful at all. Not to mention, how can I detect that someone has an implant and know that I can EMP them? I can't.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:41 pm #78644

lumipharon wrote:Again, emping is not a valid counter for this, considering other then the ONE ion rifle, R&D is the only source of non antag emp's (except the uranium/iron reaction, but who's going to have that except science and mining, who have no grinders).

The idea behind my idea is that EMPs wouldn't be the only solution but they would be an interesting alternative. Traitor who implanted his revolver into his am? Toss a firebomb at him, smash a bottle over his head and set him on fire, hit him with an incendiary shell or dragon breath shell, or light him up with a flamethrower and watch as he takes a ton of damage as the rounds in his am cook off. Guy with the leg implants? Those are strictly temporary and if he can't score some stimpacks from mining he'll be a drooling brainless retarded addict once he's taken enough hits. With energy gun implants you could make it so certain non EMP weapons like stunprods or tasers have a chance to overload the weapon making them unusable for a few minutes.

LNGLY · Post by **LNGLY** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:00 pm #78653

Scott wrote:That is true.

Science does have a grinder, by the way, in Xenobio.

Also I'd appreciate some more ideas for implants (not limb augs).

A toggleable implant that gives you a longer directional view range (like the marauder mech's sniper view) could be cool

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:22 pm #78663

Jacough wrote:With energy gun implants you could make it so certain non EMP weapons like stunprods or tasers have a chance to overload the weapon making them unusable for a few minutes.

It would make sense for tasers and stun batons to temporarily disable the augs, at least.

Shocked doors should affect them like an EMP.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:04 pm #78686

rockpecker wrote:
Jacough wrote:With energy gun implants you could make it so certain non EMP weapons like stunprods or tasers have a chance to overload the weapon making them unusable for a few minutes.
It would make sense for tasers and stun batons to temporarily disable the augs, at least.

Shocked doors should affect them like an EMP.

I like that. Also might be a little rng oriented but maybe ion storms and communication blackouts (because of the ionosphere anomalies) could affect eye implants. Maybe disable them for a short period of time and cause an annoying static overlay

Post by **MisterPerson** » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:24 pm #78741

Jacough wrote:
rockpecker wrote:
Jacough wrote:With energy gun implants you could make it so certain non EMP weapons like stunprods or tasers have a chance to overload the weapon making them unusable for a few minutes.
It would make sense for tasers and stun batons to temporarily disable the augs, at least.

Shocked doors should affect them like an EMP.
I like that. Also might be a little rng oriented but maybe ion storms and communication blackouts (because of the ionosphere anomalies) could affect eye implants. Maybe disable them for a short period of time and cause an annoying static overlay

That just sounds annoying more than interesting.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:13 pm

Sounds like a good reason not to jam Superman implants into your brain every shift and become immortal to me.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:42 pm #119645

I have changed these with feedback in mind before, but I am looking to get fresh opinions/ideas, especially for the Reviver implant. I am thinking it might need a buff (just faster healing), but I don't have experience with them at all as I mostly play cyborg or otherwise never seek to get implanted.

So bump.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:53 pm #119657

I love them, for the five rounds I have managed to get a set other than just the welding shield, they are quite spectacular. Do not expect much feedback based on experience, though. The requirements to get them are harsh (research levels + needing a surgery to install), so very few players have actually used or fought against users. I would consider the Reviver to be a nerfed heal virus that only works while in crit. Some of the implants (CNS, Reviver, Nutriment pump) are simply inferior substitutes (Hulk, Heal Virus, Weight Even virus), whereas others (Xray, Thermals, HUDs, welding shield) are a alternate version of something else (Xray power from genetics, HUD items, hardsuit helmets). The only one that is truly unique is the Anti-drop implant, as nothing else provides a similar function.

I can replace several of the implants with what is offered in Virology and Genetics. When you think of it, they are a fair alternative. The implants replace the rather brutal RNG mechanics required in Medbay with static, but difficult to attain goals. I have enjoyed obtaining and using them, but my experience is short and limited, as I have only ever had one or more of the strong ones (xray, CNS, etc) for five rounds since they were added. In each case, the rounds ended too soon for them to have made any difference - the very same case for Virology, and often Genetics without some sort of outside support.

The Anti-Drop implant is a truly amazing one if used correctly, as it is not as easy to lose your held item with one lucky Disarm click.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:52 pm #119684

The biggest problem is that, ESPECIALLY as an antag, it's VERY VERY VERY risky letting anyone do literal brain/eye/etc. surgery on you, if you can even find someone to do it. Top that off with high R&D requirements for the more useful ones, meaning you have to invest 20-30 minutes + minerals into it, and there being no longer any self-surgery (fuck coderbus); and most people I feel would rather just print a SABR, BoH, welding mask, and NVs, and go to town on the station instead of doing something risky that will probably get you killed for minor benefit, whilst taking more time than the alternative.

That said, as nonantag most people aren't as cautious and don't give a fuck.

To be honest though, I really haven't seen it used in any noticeable sort of scale. Even though it's theoretically OP if you get all these implants at the same time, it almost never occurs that way, and even abusing anti-stun + etc. IS counterable by lethals, or an activated baton.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:01 am #119753

It's not abused because
1: It takes time, effort and miners to max out R&D.
2: Most people don't know how.

Also every time I've maxed out R&D as an antag, I chose not to use the xray/etc implants because I was also using emps, which would just wreck myself if I did.

However is is far easier and more effective to simply get a SABR (42 round mags are fucking top kek for murderbone), + infinte freedom and adrenal implants.
Good luck trying to kill a guy (with lethals, stuns or both) when they can stun break + super heal without limit (OD aside), all while shooting the every loving shit out of you with stun revolvers, xrays and SABR spam.

Loss of self surgery has killed the viability of the other implants - it's just another uncertainty on top of all the others to make it work, so it's not really worth it.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:20 pm #119758

So you're saying it's okay to relax the tech requirements a bit to unlock the implants?

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:24 pm #119775

Scott wrote:So you're saying it's okay to relax the tech requirements a bit to unlock the implants?

It won't change anything, since most use minerals, which ALWAYS takes around 30 minutes to acquire, if they come at all. Most miners come with one large batch of minerals anyway, they don't grab some low-tier minerals and come back, ever, so it's kind of irrelevant when that is the major bottleneck for R&D (every time I have to wait around ~5 minutes for minerals because I've done everything I could without them).

The main problem with implants is the removal of self surgery, flat out. It's why hardly anyone uses them, it relies on so many volatile time-sensitive factors, meaning you exhaust around 70% of the round just acquiring them as an antagonist, and there's no guarantee you won't be killed by your implanter, putting all your hard work to shame, when you could instead just go with something less volatile [BoHs, SMG/carbines/etc., NVs]. For a scale of the time required for R&D, the time to research to cap without minerals or upload boards + the wait for minerals is around 20-30 minutes, possibly resulting in fucknothing because mining doesn't mine, followed by another 10+ minutes of R&D, then finding someone to do surgery on you and counting on them not to kill you / to actually do it, which is going to take another 10 minutes at least). Relaxing tech requirements won't change how often they're used at all, hell, even the welding implant is barely ever used, despite being very good and cheap generally.

And no, the traitor surgery chair that was proposed is not an adequate fix, since it only grants one antag type with a 15%~ occurance rate the benefit of having viable implants. I do not find, given all these obstacles and the time expenditure, all the implants may be powerful, but they are balanced. 40 minutes of preptime in 60-70 minute rounds is a hugely risky move, and it SHOULD be proportionally rewarding. That said, they will never be used if self-surgery isn't re-added, and I honestly don't think that's too severe of a buff that every asshole in science will suddenly have a trillion implants, even when we HAD self-surgery, self-augs in Robotics were rare.

Singuloth could be released at any time, the shuttle can be called early, you could be randomly murdered in R&D, etc. More likely than not, the shuttle will be called at least once before you're even done R&D. It's what justifies as-is getting a bag that can carry anything, an SMG with the same damage potential as a revolver, with the sole penalty of having damage distributed across a chain of bullets, an ion carbine, a stun revolver, and NVs. On top of it all, most of this is even gated behind an emag or cocksucking cargo or the HoS for them on top of everything else instead of just an ID, because lolfiringpins.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:28 pm #119784

Okay, I'll relax the tech requirements.