RnD powercreep

[imblyings]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I think you're suffering from some tunnel vision here

RnD as it is, the system itself, can't be improved. Speedruns are in fact the best possible solution for it outside of complete overhauls, evolved from years of experienced players gradually min-maxing the fun available from the game. Their views shouldn't be discounted because they're not wrong. It doesn't slow down science because anybody competent in RnD will adapt. And they don't like the general effect or aim of this change, which is to slow down what was a faster progression towards endgame RnD, which like I've said, is the best possible solution for RnD outside of an overhaul. It might seem like opposing views but they're not and both are valid points.

[lumipharon]

You have no idea why I've critised what you've said then.

I have no problem with R&D being more difficult. I showed my method specifically to indicate that syringe gun spam is not even the fast way, it's simply the lazy way.
If you think my suggest of adding origin tech to items, making it HARDER to produce, and stopping people from spamming them is me some how trying to defend my personal interests in the matter, you're having a laugh.

I have been pushing for a long time to make R&D MORE DIFFICULT, not by poking at origin levels, which literally just means an adjustment to the shopping list, but with stuff like anom cores being required for phazons, and alien brains for the high level implants. These are things I have suggested, these are things that make R&D more interesting/limit the abuse of high end OP shit.

Nerfing a random item's origin tech does not make it more difficult, it just changes the shopping list slightly.

Stuff like time-gating is seriously awful, that's like, guild wars 2 tiers of bad, since it's not skill based, or even RNG based - it's wait around with your dick in your hand based. It's a big part of what makes xenobio less fun then for example botany, for me and others.
Botany has grow time, but you can try mutate your plants/alter their stats as frequently as you want. And if you leave for 10 minutes, even though all your plants might die, you still have seeds, that preserve the species and stats.
Slimes can only mutate (which is based on shit odds RNG) once per cycle. And if you let your slimes die, enjoy working back up from grey slimes again.

[omnitricks]

Stop trying to ruin fun you unrobust scrub tryhards!

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I haven't time-gated anything, guise. Watch him yell yet more random shit to see what sticks.

The only reason you need top-tier slimes is if you really want to max out Biotech/ want to only spend 1 traitor meditem to get implants.

"If you think my suggest of adding origin tech to items, making it HARDER to produce, and stopping people from spamming them is me some how trying to defend my personal interests in the matter, you're having a laugh."
I don't think I said that anywhere. Adding origin techs to more things is literally in the PR (You haven't read the code for a while clearly). Making the syringegun high tech (why) defeats the point of the oddysseus not needing research to be constructed. You haven't actually put forward a suggestion to "Stop people from spamming them" either. You're just bitching over and over, loudly and consistently, that this change which apparently doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever because you're so pro at R&D you don't need it, will make you have to wait loads of time for no visible reason. Those aren't reconcilable views, Lumi.

Hello, Omnitricks.

[lumipharon]

Babin talked about time gating - I responded to it. Not everything is based around what you're saying.

You're literally strawmanning me in your previous posts, and you're clearly suggesting that I'm just blindly trying to defend things that make R&D easier for me.

I am aware that you've changed the origin tech of other items in your PR. However I was specifically talking about the syringe gun - you raised the issue of people spamming three syringe guns to brute force some levels. However it is currently an item that is actually fairly important for some of the levels it can reach.

Your solution to this was
A: nerf the syringe gun's origin levels
B: Buff some other items levels so certain levels aren't impractical to get to

I made my suggestion, which was only to give syringe guns required tech, because it is a far simpler solution to the issue you're describing. I also explained why it wasn't really an issue anyway.
And again with the 'don't need research for the oddy'. As I already said, the parts are round start constructable - the boards are not. You can research up, and print your own boards faster then ordering then ordering them from cargo. By extension, getting the research for the syringe gun would be a non factor in terms of time.

So what is your point then? Oddy's aren't round start buildable without outside help - and the fastest method makes a logical extension to my suggestion.

My suggestion by definition stop people from spamming them, since you'd not gain anything from deconning more then one.

But yes, I will loudly and consistantly tell you the same thing over and over, because you've yet to make an sort of reasonable argument that proves me wrong. And for the 3rd time, this is not about me, my method of R&D, or how good I am at it.
There is no skill involved, any chucklefuck can follow a guide and finish R&D as fast as possible.

[TheNightingale]

(Yes, I play research, now shush)
The issue with R&D, in my opinion, isn't that it's quick, it's that it's all exactly the same. Either you follow a set path (e.g. lumi's handbook, my slightly more advanced guide) and complete R&D quickly, or you don't and you... still complete R&D, but you fumble around with deconning three syringe guns instead of one.
For anyone who knows what they're doing (read: anyone with a guide), R&D at roundstart is like this:
- Acquire research things (plasma sheet, maybe health analyzer/flash, depends on your guide)
- Get Robotics to make you a mech syringe gun
- Deconstruct things
- Wait for mining
- Done, xray lasers*, bags of holding and advanced eguns* everywhere.

Adding more time gates to this like Babin's suggestion (which I actually quite like) wouldn't treat the cause (R&D is too easy with a guide), just the effect (oh god Sci has bags of holding already). The experimentor, originally meant to be a replacement for the DA, was a start - but that itself had its own problems, and still does.

*"B-but firing pins!", you say. You can ask Cargo (especially the miners, they love you anyway) for a crate and shoot it open in the firing range.

Lumi's right with regards to syringe guns. We've all heard of the 'three mech syringe guns, two pacifiers' approach. How about this?:
When deconstructing something with a high origin tech, you need to be a couple of levels below it to deconstruct it. Fluff it as 'you don't know where to begin with this' - if your Materials is at 1, no deconstructing diamond; you can't comprehend how the lattice structure works or something.

Instead, you'd need Materials 3 already to decon an intelliCard (which has Origin: Mats/Data 4, will get you to 5); doing it at Mats 1/2 wouldn't work.
If you had Materials 4 and Data 1, it'd get you to Materials 5, but not Data 2, so you have to be careful about what you research (this also invalidates a lot of high illegal tech traitor items, though, so maybe lower the origin tech on those?).

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Babin talked about time gating - I responded to it. Not everything is based around what you're saying.

You're literally strawmanning me in your previous posts,
[snip]
And for the 3rd time, this is not about me, my method of R&D, or how good I am at it.
There is no skill involved, any chucklefuck can follow a guide and finish R&D as fast as possible.

I haven't said either of those things, but that's your summation of my arguments?
Hypocrisy must be in season, folks

I do like TNG's suggestion though. On the other hand, it just means that there's only one route through the epic fetch quest 2554.

[Alex Crimson]

Stop fucking with R&D. Just because someone who codes wants it to be more tedious doesnt mean we should all be forced to suffer.

If you want to change it then pput some fucking effort in and change the whole system, not cherry pick certain things and jumble them up so everyones work so far is completely invalidated. When you initially nerfed the mech syringe gun you did so without considering the repercussions and it took a bunch of people screaming at you in OOC to make you realise how little thought you had put into it.

You have "nerfed" your hated syringe gun method. Leave it at that.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I frankly do not understand your sentiment that a dysfunctional system mustn't be jostled at all, unless it's torn out and replaced, for no apparent reason.

Yes, I didn't realise that the starter syringe gun was the only magnets 4 object in the entire game (why was that even the case? who knows) with total reliability. Five people spent ten whole minutes and an entire year's ration of angry to tell me so in OOC. I fixed it, and it was reduced to dazzbuzz, Omnitricks, and Bawhoppenen.(did I spell that right?) complaining about it, with Corvi Drovidi chipping in it's defense. I changed things to allow the route to still work, at which point they just started suggesting things to add tech levels to.

Which I did.

I'm not planning to change the whole damn system, because it's complicated and I'm not a very advanced coder. Cool your jets.

[Alex Crimson]

No, you just intend to make half-asses changes and require people who have actually played R&D to tell you where you fucked up.

The syringe gun nerf has been tweaked to not fuck up R&D whilst allowing the issues with the OP item to be fixed. Lets not add more stupid mechanics.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

No, you just intend to make half-asses changes and require people who have actually played R&D to tell you where you fucked up.

The syringe gun nerf has been tweaked to not fuck up R&D whilst allowing the issues with the OP item to be fixed. Lets not add more stupid mechanics.

I had no intention of adding anything else. I said so several times.

And fuck off with "COAHDERS DONT PLAI", I hardly ever code and I play science almost every day. Fuck you,

[Alex Crimson]

I never said coders dont play. I said you dont play R&D. As apparently you have entirely missed the metagame that hasnt been x3 mech syringe guns for a while now, and the fact the syringe gun was the only viable source of EM 5.

Certain coders not playing the game they insist on changing is a topic for another time.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If you read my post directly above yours before posting, you'd notice that, as I said, I do play science. Regularly. Apart from AI, it's my most played job.

[Alex Crimson]

and if you played it half as much as you claim then you wouldve known how to fix your mech syringe gun PR before we had to shout at you in OOC about it.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Oh geez, I guess I missed the big button marked "Impart all knowledge of origin_techs" on the scientist HUD! I sure don't play science!

[lumipharon]

Oh geez, I guess I missed the big button marked "Impart all knowledge of origin_techs" on the scientist HUD! I sure don't play science!

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/List_of_it ... rigin_tech

Guess so.

[oranges]

This is hardly constructive now, can we please keep the shitflinging minimal. I want this subforum to work, but it's hard to do that when people act like this.

This is directed at both sides of the fence here