Security/Traitor Balance as a Symptom of Population

[Cheimon]

Bottom post of the previous page:

That would be so useful. Even just something that gave you an indication within, say, 20 tiles would narrow things down so much.

As it is, finding your target is pretty much impossible sometimes, and you're left to wander looking for them only to find out at the end of the round that they either got gibbed, spaced, or fucked off to mining.

[John_Oxford]

I'd like to point out,

/GOOD/ traitors, find ways to get around the obstacles presented to them (The AI, Security, Heads)

Personally, in my opinion, if you don't change anything at all, and give it time (Also ignoring all the bitchy bad traitors) Because with time, people will adapt to the situation, and learn how handle certain situations with the AI, Sec, and Heads. Once we figure out their ways of getting around them, we can work off this from there.


Nerfing/Removing everything involved with your problem is a VERY shitty way to do it. Don't.

People will eventually figure out how to get around their problems in general, without some overlord insta-fixing all the problems to ever exist ever.

[Scones]

You're implying that there are no problems at all and that in their current state, traitors should have a positive winrate in a highpop situation against a full Security+Command+AI team with another 60 or so people on the station.

We have established in this thread that there are problems. It has been a discussion of how to fix those problems.

This is not a matter of 'give it time', it's been this way for a while now.

I really hate being that guy, but wake up and smell the ashes, Sybil is a whole other world. No idea how anyone could think that way while playing on the main server.

[PKPenguin321]

Yeah, what Scones said. Sure, an exceptionally good traitor can overcome those things, but it would require them to either do the same thing to get around them every time (whatever's most effective), but they shouldn't have to. Sybil at 60 pop isn't supposed to be "MLG spacemen only," it's one of our only two servers and therefore game development should do more to work around it.

[Incomptinence]

Well not necessarily positive but they could do with doing a little bit better.

To give you a better idea of how much of a crazy show a 50+% antag winner is look at rev.

Currently 69% successful I would almost say all the combat nerfs are making them stronger since they just use meat instead of gear based stuns as an opener.

Also worth noting is it is pretty rare barely even looking like it is in rotation any more, happens less often harder to meta. If you just get solo antags all the bloody time you barely need to think about looking for them since it is almost traitors the game at this point not even a bay player could shrug off this saturation.

[Malkevin]

Where's the new stats page anyway?

[Incomptinence]

Here http://ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/latest_stats.html
Was in the first post of the traitor probability thread.

[Incoming]

Using the 69% win rate of revolution is kind of unfair, the number of rev rounds has become SO low that it's kind of too small a sample size to get a real number for.

The "actual" rev win rate is traditionally just about 50%, which is great. If there actually IS a tendency to revolutionaries winning more, it's probably because the roundtype has become so rare that the meta paranoia of heads has worn down a bit.

We really need more revolution rounds

[Oldman Robustin]

I'd like to point out,

/GOOD/ traitors, find ways to get around the obstacles presented to them (The AI, Security, Heads)

Personally, in my opinion, if you don't change anything at all, and give it time (Also ignoring all the bitchy bad traitors) Because with time, people will adapt to the situation, and learn how handle certain situations with the AI, Sec, and Heads. Once we figure out their ways of getting around them, we can work off this from there.


Nerfing/Removing everything involved with your problem is a VERY shitty way to do it. Don't.

People will eventually figure out how to get around their problems in general, without some overlord insta-fixing all the problems to ever exist ever.

This is literally the worst post I have ever seen on these forums.

This makes Cheridan's post defending locked NukeOp hardsuits and removal of explosive implants seem like a coherent, well-ordered argument.

Traitors have been shit for YEARS. YEARS. You know what's happened in that time? Every robust player on the server, with 1-2 exceptions, has turned off traitor because it isn't even fun to roll one as an antag. Greentext doesn't motivate older players, interesting rounds motivate older players. Playing as a traitor once you've tried all their gimmicks is the antithesis of interesting. A lot of the more entertaining traitor tactics have been nerfed into the ground and what's left is as entertaining as watching paint dry.

The neutered state of traitors is precisely because some "overlord" came in and nerfed/removed everything that made traitors fun to play. Now you're sitting here telling us that "THAT WONT WORK". No it works extremely well, we wouldn't be posting about this if coder changes to traitor never had an effect on their power. The coders who almost never play the game, and certainly never play as antag, would get robusted one round by a decent traitor and then take all their rage onto github and do everything in their power to nerf whatever was used to kill them. And guess what, it's been extremely effective. Nobody said back then "JUST WAIT, LET SECURITY FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH TRAITORS/LINGS, GOOD SEC PLAYERS WILL FIGURE OUT HOW TO COUNTER THEM AND ONCE THEY DO THEN WE CAN WORK FROM THERE".

No, we just got a bunch of shitty changes with absolutely no thought put into them. It boiled down to basically "this thing kills people a lot, lets nerf it", without anyone actually asking "WHAT MAKES THIS GAME FUN? WILL TRAITORS BE ABLE TO SERVE AS EFFECTIVE ANTAGONISTS IF WE REMOVE THIS?"

Same thing applies to all the anti-antag buffs that sec/AI/game mechanics received.

Active antag players and coders as a population have almost NO overlap. The people responsible for making every round entertaining have absolutely no input on the changes being made to them. So now, ever so slowly, people are starting to realize that the game is worse off when 80% of antag gametypes are indistinguishable from Extended. Why would I invest the significant energy it takes to play a good traitor, setting up my plan and executing it over the course of half an hour, just to have the AI's suit sensor button and helmet-cam access find me stealth-killing a sec officer in maint, use the PDA/default all-channel access to tip off security without alerting me, and then having a secborg and half of security bust in on my corner of maint 30 seconds later. Or since gibbing is almost impossible now, I space the body, it floats back to arrivals and 5 minutes later I find myself bolted into the dorms because the clone informed the AI who killed him.

And that's in MAINT, I can't even count the times I've silently killed someone ON-CAMERA and in the process of hiding/looting the body I see red lights blink on all the doors in the room I'm in.

Nobody thinks this game can hold its own without antagonists. A large majority of players have reached the consensus that traitors are no longer effective antagonists. This isn't rocket science, traitors need to be able to inspire fear and provide intrigue once again. I'd much rather be a pile of gibs watching a traitor slowly pick off his coworkers in science, than be alive 99% of rounds watching the fucking paint dry because the 5 traitors selected in a 60 person round have bought balloons because nobody has an incentive to even be a hostile traitor when the odds are completely stacked against you.

In short, you haven't even the faintest idea of what you're talking about. You could give me a lobotomy and I still wouldn't be able to surpass your post in the magnitude of its irrationality or its disconnection from reality. The attitude your preaching is pure unadulterated cancer that will kill SS13 far sooner than anyone expects. Traitor was killed by coders, and its only going to be revived by coders, "the players will learn to work around it" was a mantra that was widely disproved years ago. The community rotates through new blood too often and experienced players don't have the incentives to play an intentionally gimped or frustrating role. Aside from brand new roundtypes, "Just give it time, the players will adapt" is just a patently false statement. Everyone in this thread is dumber for having heard your argument, you get no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

[rockpecker]

*applause*

[Falamazeer]

I salute you sir.

Sleepy pen and c-4 ggnore had it's problems, same with para sting, but at least you feared antags, never knowing when they might strike, now you're lucky if you knew they struck and either they got got for going loud, or they just carry their objective in their bag for the next forty five minutes until someone finds a reason to call the shuttle and keep it called

[Scones]

Good god Forceful

Anways, from ss13.eu:

traitor (992 attempts)

(SUCCESS: 305 / 992) (RATING: 30%) (FAIL: 687 / 992)

This is nothing new, but that's the numbers.

[onleavedontatme]

I think success rates for traitors are an awful measure. Emagging into EVA, taking the rcd/jetpack, then going afk for an hour counts as winning, but it sure as hell isnt fun for anyone involved.

Sec arrests anyone dumb enough to do anything remotely entertaining and everyone just kinda sits around until the singulo gets out ir bombs go off (because theyve thankfully remained unnerfed) and call the shuttle is my traitor round experience most of the time.

[Scones]

I think success rates for traitors are an awful measure. Emagging into EVA, taking the rcd/jetpack, then going afk for an hour counts as winning, but it sure as hell isnt fun for anyone involved.

This is true.

[Amelius]

I think success rates for traitors are an awful measure. Emagging into EVA, taking the rcd/jetpack, then going afk for an hour counts as winning, but it sure as hell isnt fun for anyone involved.

Sec arrests anyone dumb enough to do anything remotely entertaining and everyone just kinda sits around until the singulo gets out ir bombs go off (because theyve thankfully remained unnerfed) and call the shuttle is my traitor round experience most of the time.

This. _We need more traitors_, or at least not a diminishing returns equation that I heard we had. Otherwise tators can't actually cause chaos in mid to high pop, sec gets bored and so on.

Tbh, I've started preferring DA for this exact reason.

This makes Cheridan's post defending locked NukeOp hardsuits and removal of explosive implants seem like a coherent, well-ordered argument.

Traitors have been shit for YEARS. YEARS. You know what's happened in that time? Every robust player on the server, with 1-2 exceptions, has turned off traitor because it isn't even fun to roll one as an antag. Greentext doesn't motivate older players, interesting rounds motivate older players. Playing as a traitor once you've tried all their gimmicks is the antithesis of interesting. A lot of the more entertaining traitor tactics have been nerfed into the ground and what's left is as entertaining as watching paint dry.

The neutered state of traitors is precisely because some "overlord" came in and nerfed/removed everything that made traitors fun to play. Now you're sitting here telling us that "THAT WONT WORK". No it works extremely well, we wouldn't be posting about this if coder changes to traitor never had an effect on their power. The coders who almost never play the game, and certainly never play as antag, would get robusted one round by a decent traitor and then take all their rage onto github and do everything in their power to nerf whatever was used to kill them. And guess what, it's been extremely effective. Nobody said back then "JUST WAIT, LET SECURITY FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH TRAITORS/LINGS, GOOD SEC PLAYERS WILL FIGURE OUT HOW TO COUNTER THEM AND ONCE THEY DO THEN WE CAN WORK FROM THERE".

No, we just got a bunch of shitty changes with absolutely no thought put into them. It boiled down to basically "this thing kills people a lot, lets nerf it", without anyone actually asking "WHAT MAKES THIS GAME FUN? WILL TRAITORS BE ABLE TO SERVE AS EFFECTIVE ANTAGONISTS IF WE REMOVE THIS?"

Same thing applies to all the anti-antag buffs that sec/AI/game mechanics received.

Active antag players and coders as a population have almost NO overlap. The people responsible for making every round entertaining have absolutely no input on the changes being made to them. So now, ever so slowly, people are starting to realize that the game is worse off when 80% of antag gametypes are indistinguishable from Extended. Why would I invest the significant energy it takes to play a good traitor, setting up my plan and executing it over the course of half an hour, just to have the AI's suit sensor button and helmet-cam access find me stealth-killing a sec officer in maint, use the PDA/default all-channel access to tip off security without alerting me, and then having a secborg and half of security bust in on my corner of maint 30 seconds later. Or since gibbing is almost impossible now, I space the body, it floats back to arrivals and 5 minutes later I find myself bolted into the dorms because the clone informed the AI who killed him.

And that's in MAINT, I can't even count the times I've silently killed someone ON-CAMERA and in the process of hiding/looting the body I see red lights blink on all the doors in the room I'm in.

Nobody thinks this game can hold its own without antagonists. A large majority of players have reached the consensus that traitors are no longer effective antagonists. This isn't rocket science, traitors need to be able to inspire fear and provide intrigue once again. I'd much rather be a pile of gibs watching a traitor slowly pick off his coworkers in science, than be alive 99% of rounds watching the fucking paint dry because the 5 traitors selected in a 60 person round have bought balloons because nobody has an incentive to even be a hostile traitor when the odds are completely stacked against you.

In short, you haven't even the faintest idea of what you're talking about. You could give me a lobotomy and I still wouldn't be able to surpass your post in the magnitude of its irrationality or its disconnection from reality. The attitude your preaching is pure unadulterated cancer that will kill SS13 far sooner than anyone expects. Traitor was killed by coders, and its only going to be revived by coders, "the players will learn to work around it" was a mantra that was widely disproved years ago. The community rotates through new blood too often and experienced players don't have the incentives to play an intentionally gimped or frustrating role. Aside from brand new roundtypes, "Just give it time, the players will adapt" is just a patently false statement. Everyone in this thread is dumber for having heard your argument, you get no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

> This isn't rocket science, traitors need to be able to inspire fear and provide intrigue once again. I'd much rather be a pile of gibs watching a traitor slowly pick off his coworkers in science

Damn straight. While parapen and parasting were absolutely fucking shit, they made you afraid to be close to people alone since it <was> so easy to be killed and thrown out an airlock. You felt fragile and defenseless. Nowadays I'm fine with chatting to random strangers in the corridor because I know if anything happens, I can always either run away, robust them, or call for help before they can ever do anything.

Also, the removal of self-surgery was Hitler. You could do so many interesting things to confuse and befuddle security as an antag - implanting an emag / weapon in your chest and not closing it, removing it in the permabrig to escape, add a voice analyzer connected to a signaller to mess with the station from your cell, or hell, even release you if you're a creative engineer and connect it to the right wires on the doors. And so on, but even that was destroyed.

There are so few traitors selected on a round-to-round basis, who individually are very weak in terms of both equipment and robustness, the latter factor being average. The average player cannot cause chaos, intrigue, or, god forbid, do anything interesting on a scale large enough to involve much of the crew, neither with the equipment they are provided, nor with the average robustness they have, nor with the scant fellow traitors that are present, without immediately getting caught by security; each member of which has helmet cams and a radio, meaning the moment you robust one (who inevitably calls for help, sometimes with or without a position) a competent warden can immediately identify where, who, and how, and dispatch reinforcements without even knowing their location and only hearing a 'help'. Then there's suit sensors and the AI that will immediately try to find them, and so on, making it pretty much impossible for a security guard to be murdered without everyone knowing where. It's pretty much impossible for a single dude to defeat or flee from a horde of bored security guards and bored validhunters converging on your position, along with the AI bolting you in everywhere.

To excaberate this, since traitor equipment is at a premium, and keywords are shit (let's not pretend), it's incentivized to kill your few traitor buddies (if found) for more equipment and thus, in a prisoner's dilemma-esque sense, to also minimize risk, thus excaberating the problem.

Basically, more traitors, increase TC (40 -> 100), add more fidelity to pricing, 1.5x the cost of most equipment, keeping the stealth stuff the same price. Maybe double prices in some cases (bombs etc.), and add some new scary pieces of traitor equipment that ARE powerful in 1v1 circumstances. People should be afraid to be next to other people alone, plain and simple.

[Scones]

More antags is an iffy solution, I hate having to play Security and then it just so happens that both lawyers and every head of staff is an antag, forces shitty paranoia from sec

I like DA because it forces antags to do shit and interact with the station and other people

[Oldman Robustin]

Sure there's a critical mass where too many antags turns the round into a shitshow.

But we are so far from that point it's not even funny.

[onleavedontatme]

I just want to know why security was buffed so much so that each officer can take down multiple traitors at once when they already outnumber the total number of traitors, let alone in a realistic situation of 1 traitor vs 5 officers converging on them in maint.

But I guess officers need to always win against traitors otherwise the defenseless crew who lost all their decent improvised weapons will die.

So basically this is all Cheri's fault give me back my stungloves. Anyone being able to kill anyone in one hit was obviously the perfect balance.

[Malkevin]

What buffs? Sec hasn't had any buffs aside from helmet mounted cameras and lights and a gas mask that lets you yell obscenities at the touch of a button.

The only thing that's made them stronger is that everyone else has been made weaker: no stun gloves, no pocket saws
But at the same time stun prods, spears, and cable cuffs have been added, they're literally made of shit laying around the station.
The only thing that's changed with traitors is the removal of parapens (these were literally an iwin button and a giant crutch used by unrobust queers) and ebows are now shit because paprika

Really the biggest change is that everyone is a giant unrobust baby, we used to accept that dying was part of the game and that losing is fun, now thanks to all the hand holding and excessive admin interference we have a player base that's too afraid to get stuck in and smack a few bitches around, and because of that lack of school of hard knocks they haven't learned the skills they need so that when they do roll antag they don't die an unrobust death to the first red shirt they come across