Detectives as antags

[Cheimon]

Bottom post of the previous page:

50 people on the server.

1 sec guard. 1 traitor detective.

That just happened fam.

Then deputize people. What, you're afraid of deputizing people because the game says they can be antags? Then you're part of the problem.

If they didn't join up to play security, and suddenly want to, they're mostly either

(a) just there to go validhunting in maintenance

(b) there to get access to the high quality restraining equipment security provides, for malicious purposes

(c) too incompetent to sign up as security, so why would you want them

The rest of the people are already playing the jobs they got. Deputizing people picks from a limited pool. The people in that pool are less likely to be good officers.

[Cheimon]

Also I put forward for anyone to present a real life scenario where a private security force deputized civilians, civilians with no ""experience"" in security procedures to shore up a lack of security personal?

Its more illogical and inane for a security force to recruit people in such short order than it is otherwise.

You don't see mall cops giving a baton and segway to a passerby because there's a 50% off sale at the major retailers and their understaffed. Or for the Secret Service, while under a threat of a assassination against the President of the United States, to give a gun and clearance to a civilian that was touring the White House by coincidence, and then act surprised when that civilian shoots the President.

Sheriff Posses in the wild west? I don't know a lot about the actual historical period, but it seems to be a common practice in films that makes a good story.

[Gamarr]

If they didn't join up to play security, and suddenly want to, they're mostly either

(a) just there to go validhunting in maintenance

(b) there to get access to the high quality restraining equipment security provides, for malicious purposes

(c) too incompetent to sign up as security, so why would you want them

The rest of the people are already playing the jobs they got. Deputizing people picks from a limited pool. The people in that pool are less likely to be good officers.

I actually often tried to be deputized/join sec, because as a player I try to fill in the gaps in personnel after the start (this includes being a traitor and not, even so far as using my spy gear to be a positive effect on things around me while trying to do objectives without murderbone). Except I quit bothering because of so many/hop/sec thinking like this that it just was easier to say 'fuckit,' and do it myself in regards to trying to help security.

You can't really complain about no sec when the apparent norm is to be super meta paranoid about anyone who joins it late. It's the hell you deserve. Likewise, people too often are given carte blanche access instead of giving them just a walky to the hoss and some basic shit.

[TechnoAlchemist]

I like to join sec as traitor and then kill sec to teach a valuable lesson in trusting people

[WarbossLincoln]

I like to join sec as traitor and then kill sec to teach a valuable lesson in trusting people

An admin actually enforced this the other day. I joined sec as an assistant, got loyalty implanted, and fully intended to be a normal sec officer. Then I got turned into a syndicate traitor with an uplink sec headset.

I had an idea about a week ago to remove Detective from sec altogether, make it a civilian job, and give him a few more responsibilities(like the lawyer's supposed job). I'm going to create a thread on that in the Ideas forum sometime, maybe today or tomorrow. Sec would be encouraged to basically treat the detective as a vigilante if he goes after criminals. Brig him if he tries to arrest people for bullshit, but not if it's a confirmed traitor or something. No one is going to arrest an assistant for caving in someone's skull when they have a revolver or something.

I think there would only be 1 mapping change really, on metastation. Part of the plan would be that the Detective no longer has sec access, so his office needs to be outside of sec. On Metastation it would need to be moved. I have a screenshot of the idea though. Since lawyer would go just turn the lawyer's office into the detective's and turn the old detective's office into another drunk tank.

[Lumbermancer]

Let's keep in mind that we're all playing a game and all want to have fun.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Sounds like a buncha folks in this thread need to calm the hell down and just enjoy the damn game.

[Oldman Robustin]

The whole loyalty implant = not roundstart traitor thing shouldn't have been violated.

Everytime I see the detective go nuts, its just like old traitorsec, people just assume he's justified and they will never go after him unless he's using traitor gear, your best strategy is never buying anything you can get caught with (stick to implants) and murderboning in maint. Even if they arrest you on suspicions, if you don't have traitor shit falling out of your pockets they'll assume it was justified 99/100 times.

[Ezel]

No that was with normalsec detective was more trusted with traitorshit because scanner

[PKPenguin321]

"ohh noo muh inconsistencies! the game is ruuuuuuuuuinnnnnnnnnnnnned"

this has been in the game for weeks and ive both interacted with and played as the detective multiple times. it's pretty much the same as before except that occasionally you get a license to griff. not nearly as HORRIBLY GAME BREAKING REVERT REVERT REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE as all the assblasted babies in this thread think it is

If you want to act like a utter moron then that's your prerogative, but it is still a glaring inconsistency no matter how you want to negatively portray it.

"m-m-m-moron!!! it's s-s-still in... i-inconsistent!!!"

okay lad whatever you say, but it's literally already in the game and it is 100% fine

[Steelpoint]

And?

Your acting like we've never had bad changes to SS13 in the games entire history, and that when a change is added its 100% justified and infallible.

A change being added to the game does not automatically validate its exsitance, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be saying the same thing I am.

[Luke Cox]

The whole loyalty implant = not roundstart traitor thing shouldn't have been violated.

Everytime I see the detective go nuts, its just like old traitorsec, people just assume he's justified and they will never go after him unless he's using traitor gear, your best strategy is never buying anything you can get caught with (stick to implants) and murderboning in maint. Even if they arrest you on suspicions, if you don't have traitor shit falling out of your pockets they'll assume it was justified 99/100 times.

In that case, their roundstart loyalty implants need to be removed.

[PKPenguin321]

And?

Your acting like we've never had bad changes to SS13 in the games entire history, and that when a change is added its 100% justified and infallible.

A change being added to the game does not automatically validate its exsitance, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be saying the same thing I am.

except in this case it's not a bad change, nobody's saying that except for like you and lubermancer

think of it like this: had we tested antag detective instead of immediately merging it and ran a poll and shit, the vote for keeping it would have won, because it's a good change. it sounds bad on paper as you've pointed out so many times, but now i'm trying to tell you that it's proven itself worthy in practice.

[Scott]

Either make a complete separation of detective from security while keeping forensic scanner exclusively a detective's tool and then remove his loyalty implant, or don't remove the loyalty implant.

Your cries about inconsistency don't make any sense, it doesn't matter at all and it's an inconsistency that helps security.

[Steelpoint]

Do I have to detail why its a inconsistency and why it would be better if we solve a issue that would take minimal effort to alter?

If you two don't care about consistency and maintaining some form of integrity then that's your prerogative, and if you want to shout of expletives for the sake of it then again that's your prerogative.

Either the Detective loses his antag eligibility status OR he loses his loyalty implant. That's it.

[Scott]

lmao

[PKPenguin321]

NO NO NO YOU ARE WRONG YOU ARE WRONG INCONSISTENT BAD BAD BAD REMOVE REMOVE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[CPTANT]

Just remove the fucking implant. It doesn't even make sense that the detective has one if he is supposed to be a loose cannon.

[Scott]

How does that matter game wise?

[Cheimon]

And?

Your acting like we've never had bad changes to SS13 in the games entire history, and that when a change is added its 100% justified and infallible.

A change being added to the game does not automatically validate its exsitance, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be saying the same thing I am.

except in this case it's not a bad change, nobody's saying that except for like you and lubermancer

think of it like this: had we tested antag detective instead of immediately merging it and ran a poll and shit, the vote for keeping it would have won, because it's a good change. it sounds bad on paper as you've pointed out so many times, but now i'm trying to tell you that it's proven itself worthy in practice.

This is just your opinion. I can see plenty of people in this thread that think it's been a bad change. Arguing based on poll results that don't exist is stupid, so is straw manning everyone that disagrees with you.

[TechnoAlchemist]

I also think it's bad change

[Wyzack]

Me too as long as we are doing a show of hands

[PKPenguin321]

somebody make poll

edit: jk i made it https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6424