Firing Pins

[lumipharon]

Bottom post of the previous page:

uwotm8?
Bowman headsets give you flashbang protection. They also have regular headsets in their lockers, if they want to go stealth.
Why would they wear the syndie mask when going stealth? Unless you're literally grouped together, or have some retarded team last name, no one will off hand find you suspicious, and regular gas masks aren't hard to find in maint.
Also for real stealth they can get voice changers.

[leibniz]

uwotm8?
Bowman headsets give you flashbang protection. They also have regular headsets in their lockers, if they want to go stealth.
Why would they wear the syndie mask when going stealth? Unless you're literally grouped together, or have some retarded team last name, no one will off hand find you suspicious, and regular gas masks aren't hard to find in maint.
Also for real stealth they can get voice changers.

I thought helmets had the protection. I'll test it later.
Anyway, you should know that last names are commonly stuff like "assnigger", etc. and it would be nice if I didnt have to spend TC just to hide that.
And gas masks in maint can be far from the entry points, adding to the chance of premature discovery.

[paprika]

Syndicates have regular gas masks, regular headsets, and regular shoes on their mother base / mother ship if they want to be stealth antag

Look around and find them

[cedarbridge]

uwotm8?
Bowman headsets give you flashbang protection. They also have regular headsets in their lockers, if they want to go stealth.
Why would they wear the syndie mask when going stealth? Unless you're literally grouped together, or have some retarded team last name, no one will off hand find you suspicious, and regular gas masks aren't hard to find in maint.
Also for real stealth they can get voice changers.

I thought helmets had the protection. I'll test it later.
Anyway, you should know that last names are commonly stuff like "assnigger", etc. and it would be nice if I didnt have to spend TC just to hide that.
And gas masks in maint can be far from the entry points, adding to the chance of premature discovery.

Voice Changer is practically essential as a stealthop anyway.

[lumipharon]

If your leader called you all assniggers then blame him. Hell unless there's multiple people visible together with the name assnigger, no one is likely to even get terribly suspicious.
Bowman headsets were given flashbang protection specifically to remove the helmet dependancy. This is why sec officer who now spawn with berets by default can still use flashbangs without destroying themselves. That said, I don't know if normal helmets still also have the protection, but either way, it's redundant.

[Amelius]

I don't like anything about this PR.

> Losing explosive implants on OPs.

Terrible change. It denies most of their equipment, but it isn't perfect. Their guns can be disarmed and used against them, so ordinary crewmembers, while extraordinarily vulnerable and nigh-useless against a shielded op, can actually put work in without a gun. The possibility exists to disarm, and kill them with their own guns. There's no reason to remove this possibility. Yes, it isn't a perfect form of equipment denial, but it's BETTER that way. Op is unrobust and too slow? They take a penalty. OP is robust? The crew gets nothing / very little (one gun with most of the ammo expended).

> Firing pins giving a method by which unrobust security can deny weaponry.

> Firing pins require someone with armory access to grant science a gun.

Not a fan of it. Non-traitor antagonists suddenly have about zero possibility to use science weaponry. I think people always forget, but there are antagonists that DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO AN UPLINK. If you could EMP firing pins OR emag them, that would be better, I suppose, as it adds more flexibility for cultists, lings, revs, chemists, etc. to acquire weaponry stealthily (but it will be obvious where it came from when used), so long as you can do it with the test firing pins and they aren't obnoxiously expensive.

Overall, not a fan.

[Bawhoppennn]

I think this is a completely pointless and stupid pr.

Personally I see no need to have it changed in the first place, lockboxes weren't a problem, in fact I'd even say I'd like them, making you need to have pins is kind of ridiculous, Its trying to artificially buff nukeops when they don't need to be.

I think the perfect solution would be to make it so theres no pins in guns by default, having nukeops be able to buy a pin so the weapon can't be used against them for maybe 5TC a piece, make the nukeops pins work on any nukeop equipment like syndie bombs, c4, etc. (probably rename the pins to something else). Then they can still be removed say by tablecrafting the pin out and it takes like 1 minute so it can't be immediately used again. Then for sec have a few pins in the armory by default that they can use on guns, flashbangs, same idea, More pins can be ordered from cargo that sec can use and made from R&D. Keep lockboxes in, aswell as explosive implants for free. Make the pins emaggeable still.

I think that would be a perfect compromise while fixing some of the stuff people wanted fixed, and also keeping things that don't need to be changed working well.

[callanrockslol]

I don't like anything about this PR.

> Losing explosive implants on OPs.

Terrible change. It denies most of their equipment, but it isn't perfect. Their guns can be disarmed and used against them, so ordinary crewmembers, while extraordinarily vulnerable and nigh-useless against a shielded op, can actually put work in without a gun. The possibility exists to disarm, and kill them with their own guns. There's no reason to remove this possibility. Yes, it isn't a perfect form of equipment denial, but it's BETTER that way. Op is unrobust and too slow? They take a penalty. OP is robust? The crew gets nothing / very little (one gun with most of the ammo expended).

> Firing pins giving a method by which unrobust security can deny weaponry.

> Firing pins require someone with armory access to grant science a gun.

Not a fan of it. Non-traitor antagonists suddenly have about zero possibility to use science weaponry. I think people always forget, but there are antagonists that DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO AN UPLINK. If you could EMP firing pins OR emag them, that would be better, I suppose, as it adds more flexibility for cultists, lings, revs, chemists, etc. to acquire weaponry stealthily (but it will be obvious where it came from when used), so long as you can do it with the test firing pins and they aren't obnoxiously expensive.

Overall, not a fan.

This

[lumipharon]

Ops getting pins in all their guns for free is dumb, it means unarmed crew can at best deny an op their weapon (until they get gunned down), instead of actually posing some level of threat.

If you made syndie pins cost a tc or 2, then it would be like no slips. You can buy them in the off chance that this particular incident happens to you, or you can be a save some points and leave your self more open to risk.
It adds choice, and choice is good. This just puts the kid gloves on. There's nothing quite like tell the rest of your team that no slips are a waste of points, only to get slipped right in front of them and have their no slipped asses bail you out.

Also why removing explosive implants is dumb has already been explained numerous times, I genuinely don't understand how you can't agree. The ops have SO MUCH gear that can be used to great effect directly, and indirectly against them, that it's not funny. There is a REASON why people absolutely, and utterly hate scrub ops that gets stripped instead of blowing themselves up - it ass fucks the rest of the team.
The point of RP is also a joke. The station is about to get blown the fuck up, the crew have better things to do then fuck around with a prisoner that at best can DO NOTHING TO HELP THEM, and at worst can BLOW THE WHOLE STATION UP. Literally the only time RP with a captured op could happen, is after the entire threat has been removed (all ops dead or captured), by which point the round is all but over and the shuttle will be there/on it's way. This is not a good reason to remove explosive implants, at all.

[paprika]

I don't mind the ops not having their implants -- in a perfect world they wouldn't be lynched immediately and all of their gear stripped, but there's literally no reason to not beat an OP into crit as fast as possible to get at their headset

What's to stop assistants from stunning an op with a prod, cuffing, dragging him into maint and taking all of his shit? sec will never know, and this greyshirt vigilantism shit is just exacerbated in nuclear emergencies now. rip nuke ops, you were my favorite game mode.

[Aleph]

The implant change should be reverted, since we didn't even test this change first.

Unless there's some hidden rule now that I have to arrpee with the ops under threat of bans

[AnonymousNow]

Suggestion - guns made in R&D are pinless, lockboxless, easy to derive research from. Firing pins are a protolathable item, requiring mid-level combat research...

...and they come in a lockbox, with high security access required.

[mikecari]

I don't like this idea because it makes blobs almost impossible to fight because the firing pins are required to make xray guns now.

[mikecari]

So x-ray gun spawned without lockbox before?

It was a lot easier to obtain armory access from the HoP than it was to beg the warden to give you some. Cargo usually never orders pins either.

[dezzmont]

He does have a point though that I didn't think about.

It means that it takes longer to go from locked to ready, as security access is infinite and always with the HoS and Warden. Can also be granted to others.

[Amelius]

You have a limited number of resources, and the logistics required to have research high enough for x-rays, for the miners to acquire the minerals required for them AND for command to have their heads in gear long enough to pass the RD an armory-accessed ID or open them themselves is far more likely to occur than all of that AND cargo being competent and having available resources to expend on really fucking expensive firing pins. The few firing pins in the armory? Definitely insufficient in a 90-man blob round.

There's very few justified reasons for this change. Instead, it just makes people want to do R&D even less than they already bloody do (seriously, at this point I almost need a gun up against my head to actually do anything in R&D but fuck with the experimenter, esp. since the portable chem dispenser was removed), especially as an antagonist. I've always posited that if you cannot justify doing your actual job as an antagonist, it needs to be redesigned from the ground up, as, if it isn't rewarding for an antagonist, it definitely isn't rewarding for a non-antagonist.

Here's an idea, instead of doing this firing pin nonsense that adds no value to the game, move the experimenter to the test lab and give R&D the ability to, with it, create gun, armor, and equipment modifications that can do any manner of different things. How would you know what these modifications are? You have to test them in the goddamn firing range, on plants, by getting a collegue to hit or shoot you - whatever - kind of like a reverse goon mechanic. Some would be fun, silly modifications (laser sounds replaced by HONKs / are silent), others would come with drawbacks (e.g., invisible taser bolts, BUT you take 10 burn damage every shot; half brute damage on a piece of armor, but 1.5x burn and toxin damage; decrease speed malus by half in exchange for a chance to travel an extra tile upon stopping), etc. These could combined compositionally and 'improved' into excaberated forms of the same with worse drawbacks but greater boons.

Basically, I'm just sayin' that there's a lot of potential to be wrung out of this 'customizationable items' idea, and firing pins is the worst possible starting place, and has the worst consequences. Especially in nukeops rounds where it's quite literally 'security + heads v.s. operatives' instead of 'crew v.s. operatives' now.

[Cipher3]

Rapid Prototyping Port. How I wish it was implemented.

[lumipharon]

Holy shit, after playing various nuke op rounds, it's literally a joke without explosive implants.

The crew are casually chatting on syndie radio, I personally had a dual saber, pin pointer, c-20r, 2 syndie pistols, and syndie bomb, red button, 4 spare mags, combat gloves, nvg's, hard suit, jetpack, headset, c4...

Yeah this is dumb.

[leibniz]

Holy shit, after playing various nuke op rounds, it's literally a joke without explosive implants.

The crew are casually chatting on syndie radio, I personally had a dual saber, pin pointer, c-20r, 2 syndie pistols, and syndie bomb, red button, 4 spare mags, combat gloves, nvg's, hard suit, jetpack, headset, c4...

Yeah this is dumb.

B-but its a buff!

[Miauw]

uwotm8?
Bowman headsets give you flashbang protection. They also have regular headsets in their lockers, if they want to go stealth.
Why would they wear the syndie mask when going stealth? Unless you're literally grouped together, or have some retarded team last name, no one will off hand find you suspicious, and regular gas masks aren't hard to find in maint.
Also for real stealth they can get voice changers.

I thought helmets had the protection. I'll test it later.
Anyway, you should know that last names are commonly stuff like "assnigger", etc. and it would be nice if I didnt have to spend TC just to hide that.
And gas masks in maint can be far from the entry points, adding to the chance of premature discovery.

Voice Changer is practically essential as a stealthop anyway.

Nobody suspects the assistant without the PDA in the gas mask.

if you wear a firesuit, not really.

[cedarbridge]

uwotm8?
Bowman headsets give you flashbang protection. They also have regular headsets in their lockers, if they want to go stealth.
Why would they wear the syndie mask when going stealth? Unless you're literally grouped together, or have some retarded team last name, no one will off hand find you suspicious, and regular gas masks aren't hard to find in maint.
Also for real stealth they can get voice changers.

I thought helmets had the protection. I'll test it later.
Anyway, you should know that last names are commonly stuff like "assnigger", etc. and it would be nice if I didnt have to spend TC just to hide that.
And gas masks in maint can be far from the entry points, adding to the chance of premature discovery.

Voice Changer is practically essential as a stealthop anyway.

Nobody suspects the assistant without the PDA in the gas mask.

if you wear a firesuit, not really.

This and gasmasks have never made you invisible. That's just the price you pay.

[Stickymayhem]

This change has made nuke ops really bad. It stops people disarming guns and getting to fight bad guys with them, which is fun, and encourages everyone stripping ops for their spacesuits, equipment and headsets, thereby both fucking up an interesting tactic and being a colossal nerf to nuke ops.

9TC for explosive implants is just painful. That's 45 to implant the team.

[lumipharon]

Literally even more reason to get more syndie borgs. Borgs can't get stripped for loot when killed.

[cedarbridge]

This change has made nuke ops really bad. It stops people disarming guns and getting to fight bad guys with them, which is fun, and encourages everyone stripping ops for their spacesuits, equipment and headsets, thereby both fucking up an interesting tactic and being a colossal nerf to nuke ops.

9TC for explosive implants is just painful. That's 45 to implant the team.

It also means that because ops will likely never pay for implants to protect gear that they can no longer afford they end up getting robbed of non-guns they purchase anyway. That means the crew is now walking off with swords, shields, emags, the whole boat because ops have to spend almost the price of a gun to have the ability to blow themselves up in a pinch to protect the 90% of their gear that can still be used when stolen.

[paprika]

Me: Cheridan you're out of touch nobody will arrest ops they'll just speed loot them and space the corpses
Cheridan: ROLEPLAY POTENTIAL!
Me: no

pr merge

[Stickymayhem]

Yeah the single strongest item in ops is the shield and its not even protected.

This whole thing just isn't thought out, balanced or necessary.

[cedarbridge]

I discovered that they're actually really hard to mess with as spawned items too. Spawning a bulldog without setting myself as an operative required I var edit the pin out of the gun, spawn a new pin, var reference swap the old pin to the new pin laying at my feet. Suddenly the gun accepts this uninserted pin and fires. Literally what.

[Steelpoint]

Each Op gun should have two variants, one with the Syndi Firing Pin and one with a normal Firing Pin.

[WJohnston]

I actually rather like the idea of firing pins, it paves the way for weapon mods. Now if only we could get extra things to mod them with...

[cedarbridge]

Each Op gun should have two variants, one with the Syndi Firing Pin and one with a normal Firing Pin.

Kinda worried that will lead to list bloat though. We already have two listings for every mech in the game too.

[lumipharon]

Or we could just use my suggestion, and make explosive implants work for syndie pins, and make syndie pins an optional 1tc item for ops. Then they can strategically use them, and spend more points, or risk losing guns, and have more points (same for no slips and slipping). This way, it makes a lot of sense to buy the pin for say the SAW, where as it's not very efficient to buy it for the pistol, or the bulldog unless you're using that as your primary.

[cedarbridge]

uwotm8?
Bowman headsets give you flashbang protection. They also have regular headsets in their lockers, if they want to go stealth.
Why would they wear the syndie mask when going stealth? Unless you're literally grouped together, or have some retarded team last name, no one will off hand find you suspicious, and regular gas masks aren't hard to find in maint.
Also for real stealth they can get voice changers.

I thought helmets had the protection. I'll test it later.
Anyway, you should know that last names are commonly stuff like "assnigger", etc. and it would be nice if I didnt have to spend TC just to hide that.
And gas masks in maint can be far from the entry points, adding to the chance of premature discovery.

Voice Changer is practically essential as a stealthop anyway.

Nobody suspects the assistant without the PDA in the gas mask.

if you wear a firesuit, not really.

This and gasmasks have never made you invisible. That's just the price you pay.

Kind of defeats the purpose of a disguise then

Not really. Covering your face and putting on a jacket is not exactly what I'd call a "foolproof" disguise