Tackling the security problem.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby peoplearestrange » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:44 am #26987

I don't think security needs, or should have direct access to main areas. Not only does the HoS have this already and therefore should be leading any major raids into departments, but there's nearly always an AI to help out. Plus there is a reason a sec officer is assigned to each department. I'd say this should be utilised more.
A department with an actual security guard to let back up in or deal with minor things is invaluable.
These days on Sybil there is normally about 3-4 sec officers, plus the HoS and warden. So enough for major blackspots.

Though I do agree with giving sec gloves at start, I dont understand why they don't already. I mean it kinda even suits the look and feel of a space sec officer.

I also agree that mounted flashes are way WAY to easy to pry out and disable, giving any tidetard a free flash (Happens most rounds from the HoP's line).
Whatever
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:52 am #26994

Steelpoint wrote:A single scientist can do all of the RnD work easily, even without the RD or Roboticists. A single doctor can set up all of the cryo tubes and medial by themselves. Security has so many points of failure and things that can go horribly wrong that no other job role has to deal with, to quote an earlier post.

I don't know about you, but I play security precisely because it's not like the other jobs. Would you want to make security consist of pressing a couple of buttons to catch a criminal? I know I wouldn't. I like social aspect of it, I don't set my goals to "catch every criminal ever", if they've escaped, they've escaped, it's not the end of the world, next time I'll get them. I just don't feel the need in all this powergaming nonsense. So what if I got rekt in permabrig while bringing in beer for prisoners? I had fun doing that, as opposed to trying to get every shitler ever and raging when failing to do so. Or even if you succeed, brigging becomes a routine, where you just stun, cuff, drag, strip, set timer, repeat, and never talk to anybody because there's another shitler around the corner and your job is of course to get him no matter what.
Kuraudo wrote:- Give sec standard access to the main areas of all departments. And maint access.

Well, I don't think it is necessary at all, and I'd prefer maintenance tunnels to be just that and not an alternative hallway that is not lit and not pretty.
Kuraudo wrote:- Double the taser capacity: From 5 to 10 shots.

That would mean that taking eguns IS metagaming. You wouldn't want to laser any civvies on this research station with Asimov AI on it without a good reason, eh? So yeah, that would be a nice change considering the amount of pressure an officer can be under. It would also mean that losing taser to disarm is twice as bad though.
Kuraudo wrote:- Make sec start with black gloves, or stuff a pair in the sec locker. (You don't want the detective to blame you for a crime because you picked up the evidence with your bare hands)

Make it security gloves, so they're not confused with cargo techs. Otherwise, yes, much needed.
Kuraudo wrote:- Mounted flashes should be way more reliable than this. In their current state they are a joke.

This is literally screaming in your face that they're not for all time use, but for riot control situations. Actually, this gave me an idea of making barriers have limited charge for the same reason.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Incomptinence » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:03 am #27113

The mounted flasher is a predictive article the idea that a mob is going to let you in the slightest secure the device in the middle of their rioting is a drat weird idea.

We have a tool that does flash riot control better, the flash bang.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Fri Sep 05, 2014 5:27 am #27139

>million of greyshirts start breakin in >lockdown, flasher in front and in the back and shit

It's so hard, isn't it. Flashbang will down everybody, you will cuff one and the rest will murder you.

I don't even know why you argue for allowing to put down flasher in the first place, if it's useless.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby QuartzCrystal » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:40 pm #27309

I don't even know if this belongs here or in the policy discussion, but recently a round started with 60+ players on. I joined a minute late and there were multiple members of every single job available to choose from. Except there was one (1) security guard and no HoS, warden or detective.

Security is basically a job people don't want to play initially and only choose it if they join late, which means shit has gone down already and they're trying to hit the ground running (which always fails because people always assume the late-joined HoS to know exactly what has happened all round). So then security tries their best, but ends up just arresting people and not really knowing what's going on so then people call them shitcurity.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Gun Hog » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:40 pm #27323

My reasons for not playing Sec are:
- It is too hard. I am not a robust player, and I am usually the loser with it comes to combat.
- Greytiders. I do not want to deal with grifers who break into things, stun and rob me, or turn the crew against me.
- I am afraid of getting banned if I get too aggressive.
- I do not like to ruin other people's rounds. (Unless I am given a reason or I am an antagonist)

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Cipher3 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:17 am #27341

Gun Hog wrote:- I am afraid of getting banned if I get too aggressive.

This does concern me when I think of going Sec. I don't want to go over the line to be awful to someone.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:24 am #27362

This thread made me gloomy.
One question keeps on swirling through my head though. Why are people so against buffing security?
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Raven776 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:37 am #27379

I don't know why people are against buffing security. They seem to think that maintenance should be a 'home base' where all antags have free roam when there is often a crew of 60 people and 4 security. During some rounds as detective, I dress up as an assistant just to go truly undercover, and oh man does the world suddenly get a HUNDRED FUCKING TIMES easier to deal with. No one harasses you in the hallway, and the only thing you have to worry about is some asshole calling out that you have a revolver and the fun times being up.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:45 am #27382

because b-but shitcurity

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:48 am #27409

Rumia29 wrote:Why are people so against buffing security?

Because it doesn't need one.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Arete » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:50 am #27415

Rumia29 wrote:This thread made me gloomy.
One question keeps on swirling through my head though. Why are people so against buffing security?


The big problems that discourage people from playing security aren't simple to buff away.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:48 pm #27442

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Rumia29 wrote:Why are people so against buffing security?

Because it doesn't need one.

Okay. Why doesn't it need one?

Arete wrote:
Rumia29 wrote:This thread made me gloomy.
One question keeps on swirling through my head though. Why are people so against buffing security?


The big problems that discourage people from playing security aren't simple to buff away.


Doesn't mean we can't do little stuff to at make the role more appealing for those who already have an interest in the role.
Just because it's a big problem, doesn't mean we can't start out with small things.
I'm not saying these buffs are going to solve the issue, but they're a step in the right direction.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:19 pm #27449

Security doesn't need buffs, security needs buff men.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby QuartzCrystal » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:28 pm #27453

From the policy thread I really like the idea of giving security a device which teleports someone who is pulled and cuffed to the brig to be handled by the warden/whoever else is there. The main reason people give security a hard time is because being arrested fucking sucks, and in almost all cases the actual process of being chased-arrested-searched takes longer than the actual sentence you deserve (even with added time for resisting arrest).

While I get it can be a lot of fun yakkity saxing and avoiding security, there needs to be SOME incentive for players to simply just get arrested and have their sentence be over with so they can get back to playing. Speeding up the actual process that it takes to send someone to brig and get them in a cell would make things a lot less painful for both security and the arrested player.


Also, security is forced to be shit because after someone's 2-5 minute timer is up on their cell, they are just released into the brig. Sure some players will gather their stuff and request the warden let them out, but in most cases the person will yakkity sax around and stir up trouble. Or since there's so many people who do this every security officer who isn't aware of who each individual prisoner is sees someone in the brig (probably with a criminal status that isn't up to date) running around and they instantly stun and cuff and start asking who this person is.


EDIT: Also stop talking about "buffs", as in changes that give security an upper hand on everyone. Rather we should be talking about changes that make the interactions between security and the rest of the crew easier and more pleasant to deal with on both sides.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:36 pm #27465

Rumia29 wrote:Okay. Why doesn't it need one?

Because it is in possession of the best equipment on the station that also allows it to take on any threat whatsoever without any outside help.

My god, security is the least tedious job on the station BY FAR. You're telling me you have a hard time stripping prisoners? Fucking seriously?

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:09 pm #27471

QuartzCrystal wrote:text


I personally don't agree with a insta arrest button. It takes out all the player interaction of actually arresting someone and it would even further estrange security from the crew because it's so impersonal. Part of the fun of arresting someone is when the guy goes "problem officer?" and then when you slap the cuffs on him you get the personal privilege of dragging him around like captured hunting game while he's kicking and screaming "b-but I didn't do nuffin'!"

I would simply suggest to introduce a protected lead or something for security so bumping into people/random shitlers doesn't result in a second chase for the person you just captured.

Security could use more tools to speed up the brig process, though. There's this one server (might be /vg/, I'm not certain) that has automatic chutes in the floor that open in the middle of the cell that leads out of the brig upon the timer expiring. Alternatively, you could replace the r-windows with blast doors that only close when the cell timer is active, although this might create visibility issues if all the cells are occupied.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby QuartzCrystal » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:36 pm #27477

Reimoo wrote:
QuartzCrystal wrote:text


I personally don't agree with a insta arrest button. It takes out all the player interaction of actually arresting someone and it would even further estrange security from the crew because it's so impersonal. Part of the fun of arresting someone is when the guy goes "problem officer?" and then when you slap the cuffs on him you get the personal privilege of dragging him around like captured hunting game while he's kicking and screaming "b-but I didn't do nuffin'!"

I would simply suggest to introduce a protected lead or something for security so bumping into people/random shitlers doesn't result in a second chase for the person you just captured.

Security could use more tools to speed up the brig process, though. There's this one server (might be /vg/, I'm not certain) that has automatic chutes in the floor that open in the middle of the cell that leads out of the brig upon the timer expiring. Alternatively, you could replace the r-windows with blast doors that only close when the cell timer is active, although this might create visibility issues if all the cells are occupied.


The "device" would only be used after you've slapped the cuffs on someone and you're pulling them, plus it should take like 20 seconds to actually work (this way in instances of rev or what have you it may be more beneficial to actually physically drag them to the brig). I like the chute idea, but there would need to be a way of returning items that have been confiscated and thrown in a locker. It could become policy to not force people to strip and put on the orange clothes when just in the regular brig though (this would also cut down on time someone is in custody and the time an officer is needed to process someone) and we could say it's up to the officer's/warden's discretion as to what they remove from the cell while the sentence is being served.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:48 pm #27483

Well, confiscated items that have been put in the locker can be claimed once the timer is up because the locker already unlocks itself. I should have clarified that the chute only takes up one tile and the prisoner can stay in the cell to collect their gear before exiting.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:38 pm #27491

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Rumia29 wrote:Okay. Why doesn't it need one?

Because it is in possession of the best equipment on the station that also allows it to take on any threat whatsoever without any outside help.

My god, security is the least tedious job on the station BY FAR. You're telling me you have a hard time stripping prisoners? Fucking seriously?


Clearly there's no point in having the "best equipment" if they can't even get to the area where the equipment needs to be used.
And please don't give me that "You're telling me you have a hard time stripping prisoners?" bullshit line, which has no relevance to the suggested idea to improve security, nor have I said that personally. You're putting words in my mouth.
I do agree on your point that it's the least tedious job, but it's by far one of the harder ones. Tedium =/= difficulty.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:12 pm #27510

Rumia29 wrote:Clearly there's no point in having the "best equipment" if they can't even get to the area where the equipment needs to be used.

As a security player I deny that this is too much of a problem. AI is literally all access for security. Not to mention that people can't even run from their departments into maint, unless they got maint access from HoP (in which case you could as well) or are engineers, who are never in their department anyway.
We have department security (which is supposed to deal with what you are complaining about anyway) and absolute most of the time people patrol hallways instead of departments.
Rumia29 wrote:And please don't give me that "You're telling me you have a hard time stripping prisoners?" bullshit line, which has no relevance to the suggested idea to improve security, nor have I said that personally. You're putting words in my mouth.

I wasn't replying to you. I was replying to "device that teleports prisoners into brig", which is a horrible idea.
Rumia29 wrote:I do agree on your point that it's the least tedious job, but it's by far one of the harder ones. Tedium =/= difficulty.

You don't say? What's your point?

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:20 pm #27512

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:As a security player I deny that this is too much of a problem. AI is literally all access for security. Not to mention that people can't even run from their departments into maint, unless they got maint access from HoP (in which case you could as well) or are engineers, who are never in their department anyway.


Actually IIRC people have access to their department's maint even if they don't have maint access. It's the same reason why engineers can use general maint but can't use the doors that lead into the departments.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:55 pm #27517

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:
Rumia29 wrote:Clearly there's no point in having the "best equipment" if they can't even get to the area where the equipment needs to be used.

As a security player I deny that this is too much of a problem. AI is literally all access for security. Not to mention that people can't even run from their departments into maint, unless they got maint access from HoP (in which case you could as well) or are engineers, who are never in their department anyway.
We have department security (which is supposed to deal with what you are complaining about anyway) and absolute most of the time people patrol hallways instead of departments.
-Two other points-


Could we please take the AI out of the equation? It's very unreliable, as already said multiple times with other points relevant to that subject in this thread.
-Two other points-
Yeah alright, those two points are mute, and not relevant to what me and you were discussing if they weren't, so apologies.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:04 pm #27518

Reimoo wrote:Actually IIRC people have access to their department's maint even if they don't have maint access. It's the same reason why engineers can use general maint but can't use the doors that lead into the departments.

Indeed. If they enter maintenance they are trapped inside unless they are engineers who have maint access by default. Oh, also cargo, I forgot those.
Rumia29 wrote:Could we please take the AI out of the equation? It's very unreliable, as already said multiple times with other points relevant to that subject in this thread.

Well, you are chasing a criminal after all. Frankly I think it's reliable enough.

To be fair, I'm not AGAINST adding all departments to security officers, but it does seem kind of unnecessary.

I do think only engineers and cargonia should access maintenance, though.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Cipher3 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:47 pm #27525

Giving Sec officers a bunch of extra departmental access would actually make me MORE likely to ambush one, kill them, and steal their stuff and ID. Just saying.
Spoiler:
Nathanael Greene begins to reshape Bryce Pax's genitals to look more feminine.
Nathanael Greene has made a woman of Bryce Pax!

Valerie Sinnet says, "Nathaniel Greene charged the brig with a fucking HONK."

[Common] Assists-the-Crew hisses, "Walker Quinn s-s-s-ss-stole the HoP's-s-s-ss-s door"

OOC: HotelBravoLima: I literally can't be removed from power.

This line gets me every time:
I demand this ban be lifted right now. ~Bibliodewangus

What you hear walking past people:
Erin Wake whispers, "You should ready up on Badger and boink with me..."

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I've got all that great hitler flavor but only half the hitler calories." - Anon3

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that PR matters. ~MisterPerson

DEAD: Ichigo Momomiya says, "Coravin's just an ass."

Linus Johnson says, "Hey you know I got this game Skyrim last week"
Linus Johnson says, "I have a level 19 ranger and its so fun"
Weston Zadovsky says, "did he just"
Weston Zadovsky says, "fucking hell"

The emergency shuttle has been called. It will arrive in 10 minutes.
Nature of emergency:
Coravin, just Coravin.

Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Fucking get out."
Coravin Vattes asks, "Please?"
Beryl Nyuphoran says, "Please get the fuck outta my lab."
Coravin Vattes exclaims, "Okay!"
[Common] Beryl Nyuphoran {RD} asks, "WHO GAVE CORAVIN ALL ACCESS?"

Lindsay Donk stammers, "L-Luc-ck w-was-s-s s-s-such-h a beaut-tifu p-p-p-pr-r-rom-m q-q-q-queen"

Ty Andrews curls up in a ball on the floor and purrs.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:04 pm #27534

Cipher3 wrote:Giving Sec officers a bunch of extra departmental access would actually make me MORE likely to ambush one, kill them, and steal their stuff and ID. Just saying.


That could be either a pro or a con depending on the context, just saying.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Arete » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:56 am #27596

Rumia29 wrote:Doesn't mean we can't do little stuff to at make the role more appealing for those who already have an interest in the role.
Just because it's a big problem, doesn't mean we can't start out with small things.
I'm not saying these buffs are going to solve the issue, but they're a step in the right direction.


If a change would cause other balance issues, then it shouldn't be added. That kind of whack-a-mole dev process just results in a cluttered game where further balance improvements are even more difficult to accomplish. Making sec more attractive doesn't necessarily mean making it more powerful.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:27 am #27603

Arete wrote:If a change would cause other balance issues, then it shouldn't be added. That kind of whack-a-mole dev process just results in a cluttered game where further balance improvements are even more difficult to accomplish. Making sec more attractive doesn't necessarily mean making it more powerful.


Alright, what do you suggest?
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:34 am #27604

Rumia29 wrote:Alright, what do you suggest?

Nerf assistants, I'm tellin ya

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:36 am #27605

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Nerf assistants, I'm tellin ya


Well I'm game.
Problem is, not many people are.
So we're in a big dud. No solution on either side. What a frustrating topic.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:56 am #27608

You don't need to nerf assistants, you just need to buff everything else

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:37 am #27612

Reimoo wrote:You don't need to nerf assistants, you just need to buff everything else

You better have a good reason to choose much harder, nigh-on impossible to accomplish solution with many potential unforeseen consequences over a very simple and effective one.

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Arete
 
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Arete » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:33 am #27617

Rumia29 wrote:Alright, what do you suggest?


A lot of it comes down to admin decisions. Some people on this server feel that admins are pro-graytide and whenever there's a conflict between a sec officer and a graytider, the admin will usually rule against the officer. Until that perception goes away, people aren't going to want to play sec. Ditto for flouting the chain of command and breaking into secure areas. Nonantags doing these things need to considered under the "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" rule at least.

It's also important to give non-sec crew something interesting to work toward. As things stand, nonantags don't win except by stopping antags from winning. This means that if you want to win, you've got to get your valids on, and there are way too many people being violent for sec to arrest them all. Give them something else to do, and each crew member is more likely to stick to their job, keeping them out of the way of security.

Make security generally easier, not in the sense of making them stronger against antags but in the sense of less chaos and inconvenience. Some of this might be sec-specific, like better-designed holding cells or new machines to process prisoners once they're caught, but others might affect the whole game, like making the sprites of people who are attacking flash or something to make it more clear what's going on in chaotic situations. SS13 really heavily favors the first person to act in combat, to the point that it's not very difficult for one person to stun two others and escape or even kill them. Anything that reduces that first move advantage will make playing the good guys less stressful and more attractive.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:11 pm #27639

I'm not one to toot my own horn, but I consider myself to be one of the best Security players on /tg/. Not necessarily in combat prowess, but in being a good officer and trying to strike a good balance between punishment and freedom, at least personally, I'm not as aware of other people's opinion of me

To prenote, the job security has to do is more than enough to keep people away by itself, let alone anything else. Simple fact is that few people want to play the police officer in a game based on a descent into utter chaos.

I think the best way to increase Security player retention is to buff security. Not to make it easier to catch antags, but to make the standard sec operations function more smoothly. I'm going to list off areas I think are worth mentioning or altering.

---------

Equipment: Personally I think Sec has all the equipment they will ever need. When some people talk about Goon and /tg/, one thing that sometimes pops up is Security. On goon Sec is akin to a mall cop, very basic equipment and nothing fancy. On /tg/ its more akin to a militarized police force.

However, some equipment can be better refined. Such as:
  • Allowing Officers to type a arrest reason on their SecHUDs. One of the most common questions you will ever hear in Security is "why is this guy arrested?".
  • Some form of personal camera on a Officers armour vest. Allowing the Warden/HoS to watch a Officer akin to watching a cyborg. This would be extremely great in allowing for better coordination.
  • Give the detective a SecHUD: A detective asking for one another common question for me.

Procedure: In the vast majority of non-antag related arrests, officers spend more time processing the accused than the actual sentence length. This is frustrating to both parties. Streamlining this arrest procedure would be a great plus and help defuse tension.

For example, adding in a exit chute in brig cells to allow someone to leave the cell once their time is up. The chute would have to be set up by the arresting Officer of course.

Policy/Admins: Security Officers are nearly akin to a admin without the investigation tools. They have limited information, and have to make a judgement call, which may not always be correct. While in most cases I think admin interactions are fine, I think that admins need to approach officers with a bit of leeway.

In addition, the sooner antag selection code is rewritten to assign antag status before job status, the better. The last time I played as antag was several months ago when I asked to play as a Wizard when some people took pity on the fact I rarely got to play as a antag.

I can write more, but that's it for now. Its a quality of life issue.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kuraudo » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:23 pm #27642

I had an idea i'd like to share with you guys about brigging and prisoners.
Allow indefinite bucklecuffing and much higher timed sentences, but in return, put a virtual reality googles-like device on the prisoners.
The virtual reality could be an area like the one the ninja can teleport you to, with a bar, a beach, etc.
We could have an alternate, frightening simulation, for the scumbags criminals. Something like a dark maze with strange noises, etc.
When the cell countdown reach zero, the VR experience ends and the prisoner is back to reality.

I think that the cell could even be smaller, with a device looking like a cloning pod, but acting as a Virtual Reality device. You put the prisonier in it and lock it with a timer. It unlocks when the timer reach zero or a sec ID is swiped on it.

The prisonier will get a sense of freedom with this, he will be less likely to hold a grudge on sec while being put off the round long enough to not be a nuisance for the rest of the crew.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Lo6a4evskiy » Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:35 pm #27647

Steelpoint wrote:Allowing Officers to type a arrest reason on their SecHUDs. One of the most common questions you will ever hear in Security is "why is this guy arrested?".

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1383
Kuraudo wrote:I had an idea i'd like to share with you guys about brigging and prisoners.
Allow indefinite bucklecuffing and much higher timed sentences, but in return, put a virtual reality googles-like device on the prisoners.
The virtual reality could be an area like the one the ninja can teleport you to, with a bar, a beach, etc.
We could have an alternate, frightening simulation, for the scumbags criminals. Something like a dark maze with strange noises, etc.
When the cell countdown reach zero, the VR experience ends and the prisoner is back to reality.

I think that the cell could even be smaller, with a device looking like a cloning pod, but acting as a Virtual Reality device. You put the prisonier in it and lock it with a timer. It unlocks when the timer reach zero or a sec ID is swiped on it.

The prisonier will get a sense of freedom with this, he will be less likely to hold a grudge on sec while being put off the round long enough to not be a nuisance for the rest of the crew.

Even if coded, I doubt device of such awesomeness would be wasted on prisoners.
Steelpoint wrote:Some form of personal camera on a Officers armour vest. Allowing the Warden/HoS to watch a Officer akin to watching a cyborg. This would be extremely great in allowing for better coordination.

Pretty cool idea, actually.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Raven776 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:14 pm #27671

The officer armor vest cam would also limit the amount of graytiding that happens when people steal a full security suit. And a warden with TK is suddenly a pocket god for officers.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Saegrimr » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:15 pm #27672

Arete wrote:A lot of it comes down to admin decisions. Some people on this server feel that admins are pro-graytide and whenever there's a conflict between a sec officer and a graytider, the admin will usually rule against the officer.

Theres high chance I will bwoink the person graytiding before Sec even reaches them. The worst thing Sec can do though is abusing the permabrig/gulag or executions for minor crap. Or more recently, sec officers stealing tools/gloves from the people they arrest to use personally. Big no on that one.

Arete wrote:It's also important to give non-sec crew something interesting to work toward. As things stand, nonantags don't win except by stopping antags from winning. This means that if you want to win, you've got to get your valids on, and there are way too many people being violent for sec to arrest them all. Give them something else to do, and each crew member is more likely to stick to their job, keeping them out of the way of security.

More things to do is just a good idea, even out of the context of security/antags. I mean this is a game after all.
The problem is trying to balance time spent vs. reward. Absolutely nobody likes going out and setting up the solars only to have the wizard fireball himself and end the round.

Arete wrote:Make security generally easier, not in the sense of making them stronger against antags but in the sense of less chaos and inconvenience. Some of this might be sec-specific, like better-designed holding cells or new machines to process prisoners once they're caught,

This is something i'd really like to see. Its laughable that brig sentences are 1~5 minutes when it probably takes that long just to get them there, strip em down, get them in the cell, and all that other crap. And going through the process of updating criminal records? Hahahaha, no.

I play around with the criminal records because its fun to print up rap sheets and throw it in the cell when people complain they din' do nuffin'.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Rumia29 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:38 pm #27678

I think this was mentioned earlier in the thread, but why not flip maintenance access? Security Officers gain it, and assistants loose it (in a perfect world).
That's really the only access Sec officers should be getting if these kind of changes go through.
At the very least though, sec officer maintenance access.
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Steelpoint
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:41 pm #27679

The issue of maintenance is simply in my mind, either Sec and Assistants have it or they don't. I think that is more fair.

Now that I think about it, having a camera on your armour vest sounds really good.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby flazeo25 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:50 pm #27714

Only two sec things I like would be maintence and sechud crimes. The problems with assistants is their high numbers. More people would play different jobs if assistants are given half antag chance or somthing else as they tend to alway number in around 10-25 in numbers.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Scott » Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:58 pm #27716

flazeo25 wrote:More people would play different jobs if assistants are given half antag chance or somthing else as they tend to alway number in around 10-25 in numbers.


Original idea, do not steal.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Arete » Mon Sep 08, 2014 12:51 am #27759

Saegrimr wrote:This is something i'd really like to see. Its laughable that brig sentences are 1~5 minutes when it probably takes that long just to get them there, strip em down, get them in the cell, and all that other crap. And going through the process of updating criminal records? Hahahaha, no.


I think the level of play here would really be improved by measures to make short rounds longer and long rounds shorter. If rounds lengths are clustered tightly around one hour, then engineering, mining, and R&D can all be pretty sure that their work will pay dividends. I guess that's a subject for a thread of its own, though.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby ThatSlyFox » Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:15 pm #29531

Although the Sec armor vest camera thing is a cool idea that really makes attacking officers as a antag a real turn off, maybe make it so you have to build it instead of just having it by default.

As far as security maintenance goes I feel they shouldn't have it, leave that to the detective. Reason being maintenance is a dangerous place and those officers should be spending their time watching over their department.

A few reasons I think people dislike playing security:
Security officers not being antags is a huge turnoff.
Game modes such as cult can be a bitch to handle as a officer since it is impossible to tell who wants to kill you and everyone could very well want to do that. Rev to a lesser extent.
Unless there are griefers or antags are being loud then it can get boring.
Everyone wants to be an antag. Being a antag is much better if than being a officer, sadly.

This is coming from a guy who likes playing HoS every now and again. Buffs and nerfs are not going to fix the problem. On a less serious note maybe we can give officers some swag. At the current moment regular officers in their red and weird looking armor look ugly but maybe that is just me.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:53 pm #29541

ThatSlyFox wrote:Although the Sec armor vest camera thing is a cool idea that really makes attacking officers as a antag a real turn off, maybe make it so you have to build it instead of just having it by default.

As far as security maintenance goes I feel they shouldn't have it, leave that to the detective.

You're not going to make security more appealing by making it less so.

Spoiler:
Game modes such as cult can be a bitch to handle as a officer since it is impossible to tell who wants to kill you and everyone could very well want to do that. Rev to a lesser extent.

Unless you're talking about sec that just starts batoning everyone at the slightest sound of revs, I'd wager its a bit harder to trust anyone without an implant in revs than it is to figure out who is dragging people into maint.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby iyaerP » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:26 pm #30097

ThatSlyFox wrote:Although the Sec armor vest camera thing is a cool idea that really makes attacking officers as a antag a real turn off, maybe make it so you have to build it instead of just having it by default.



Antags should not WANT to get into a firefight with security. If security isn't incredibly favored in those circumstances, then they cannot do their job. Antagonists should want to avoid security or ambush them with overwhelming force. Having a bananna and a welder should not make you feel like you can take down a police officer with a gun.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Reimoo » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:29 pm #30100

iyaerP wrote:
ThatSlyFox wrote:Although the Sec armor vest camera thing is a cool idea that really makes attacking officers as a antag a real turn off, maybe make it so you have to build it instead of just having it by default.



Antags should not WANT to get into a firefight with security. If security isn't incredibly favored in those circumstances, then they cannot do their job. Antagonists should want to avoid security or ambush them with overwhelming force. Having a bananna and a welder should not make you feel like you can take down a police officer with a gun.



This, antags should get rekt in open combat with security. Only ambushing should be a valid tactic.

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kuraudo » Mon Sep 22, 2014 12:28 pm #30201

Initiative is what win the fight on both sides. A traitor hit by an electrode is a dead traitor. A sec officer getting an ebow bolt in the ass is done for.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Steelpoint » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:01 pm #30206

A simple Stun Prod and Cuffs, alongside getting the first hit, wins any fight 100% of the time.

In my experience, a good majority of my deaths occurred in Security occur, not as a result of a drawn out fight, but because my opponent got the first hit in before combat began.

Hence why I believe a attached armour vest camera would go a long way in making the presence of a Security Officer actually mean something, as well as force antags to be wary in attacking a Sec Officer. While antags can still get that first hit in, they will need to either act fast or gtfo before Sec busts in the door.
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Re: Tackling the security problem.

Postby Kuraudo » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:54 pm #30229

Steelpoint wrote:I believe a attached armour vest camera would go a long way in making the presence of a Security Officer actually mean something, as well as force antags to be wary in attacking a Sec Officer. While antags can still get that first hit in, they will need to either act fast or gtfo before Sec busts in the door.


This is not a bad idea, but for every camera feed, you need someone watching it. I don't really see the warden or the HoS constantly monitoring the officers live feed in case of something going wrong. Sec personnel is already busy enough in my opinion.
"He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are brigged."

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