Increase antag scaling

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Miauw
 
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Increase antag scaling

Postby Miauw » Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:22 pm #102956

there are currently rather few antags per round. two antags for twenty people traitorling (which can be the same person), and when there's sixty people around the number isn't very big either.
Since we're increasing lethality, we may as well get more antags per round. More people get to be antag, the chance of boring rounds is lower and rounds are more lethal.
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Scones » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:09 pm #102976

We're already getting the datum antag shitstorm
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Incoming » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:31 pm #102990

Scones wrote:We're already getting the datum antag shitstorm

It's gonna be a while, don't think balance is pointless because something better is coming.

This won't be like the numbers chemistry rewrite, but game mode code keeps finding way to make me sad.
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Gun Hog
 
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Gun Hog » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:33 pm #102992

People wanted more lethality. Ramp up the scaling so that more players may experience dead chat more often. Let there be more traitors, and changelings! Let the bombings commence! Release OUR LORD :singulo: every traitor round! Let there be plasma and e-sword :toysword: deaths! Let the crew cower in fear, as the AI is blind and useless :sad: , as the HoS goes down as easily an a normal officer :newcop: , and as Genetics is DROWNED in more bodies than even a T4 cloner can handle! LET THE :salt: :salt: :salt: FLOW!
COMMENCE THE SLAUGHTER!!! :pen: :c4: :honk: GG!

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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Perakp » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:55 pm #103002

Assuming we are using the default scaling coefficient 6, it's basically one traitor for every five crew members and at higher populations it scales down a little bit, to one traitor for every eight crew members and beyond that for even higher pop rounds.

Spoiler:
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In traitorling you have that amount of traitors + some changelings added. In double agents you have six additional agents.

One interesting point to compare to is nuke ops, they always have five (+ syndie borgs), and the mode becomes available at 20 players = 3 crew members for every nuke op at 20 pop.

I think traitorling rounds generally have enough antagonists, upping the normal traitor round to that could be cool. Double agents feel a bit antagonist heavy sometimes but it's fine since they mostly go after each other. Nuke op scaling is something we could also look at, I think a three nuke op team at low pop would be more fair for the crew to handle, and more than five at higher pop could be fun for the team leader to organize.

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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Ikarrus » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:17 pm #103008

Reminder that server populations are misleading because easily 20% of players are simply idling/observing pretty much all day. Usually for Sybil we get around 40 people ready at round start with a connected population of 60.

I'd much rather increase the strength traitors have instead of adding more of them. See double agents and how shitty simply adding more traitors is. Let each traitor have a bigger impact instead, because right now they're weak as hell and can't do much.
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:28 pm #103037

Nerf the AI. Honestly, traitors and lings have the tools they need to get the job done, but the AI is this massive all seeing cockblocker, that requires a huge amount of effort to try get around, and you just know it will spend the rest of the round trrying to catch you because it can.

Giving traitors more tc's just means that can buy more bombs.

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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:44 am #103124

lumipharon wrote:Nerf the AI. Honestly, traitors and lings have the tools they need to get the job done, but the AI is this massive all seeing cockblocker, that requires a huge amount of effort to try get around, and you just know it will spend the rest of the round trrying to catch you because it can.

Giving traitors more tc's just means that can buy more bombs.


Well, the AI did get a battery of nerfs already, but I think it's time to bite the bullet and accept that just because a feature is QOL doesn't make it inviolable. Remove hotkey bolting for non-traitor AIs, make the AI only able to see job names on radio, remove the ability for it to see someone's name by mousing over them - the works.
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:45 am #103127

Hmm, no.

The AI has always historically been a very powerful antag, usually held back by the players skill. In fact that's always been a limiting factor in AI Malf rounds is how skillful is the AI in question.

E: Lets not forget that essentially the AI is just one individual, maybe with one or so cyborgs, versus the entire station's crew. Historically malf AI's are one of the only antags that motivated the entire crew to get up and do something.
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Miauw
 
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Miauw » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:09 am #103133

Alright, but maybe we should do something about latejoin antags.
Because yesterday I saw a basil round and because for some reason a bunch of dudes just latejoin at roundstart instead of readying up (?????), you get 15 player rounds with one antag, which isn't right :V
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Steelpoint
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:15 am #103135

Three ideas I have.

Either delay antag assignment for a minute after round start.

Have the game assign more antagonists (of the round type) if X amount of people join the round after it starts. For example we have 40 people ready up at round start, and we get 4 antagonists, but if 10 more people join the round at any point then the game will activate another antagonist. and for every further 10 people that join one more antagonist will be activated.

Or have the game take into account all people who are on the server when assigning antagonists, not just the one's readying up.
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Tokiko2
 
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Tokiko2 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:25 am #103143

Wasn't the traitor rate lowered recently? I do remember hearing that /tg/ isn't running the standard settings anymore. Why not go back to the old settings? I do agree that there are far too few traitors compared to before, atleast in lowpop.

Also, Basil's latejoin problem is very likely going to be fixed with the upcoming datum based antags and the threat level system.

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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby CPTANT » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:17 pm #103153

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
lumipharon wrote:Nerf the AI. Honestly, traitors and lings have the tools they need to get the job done, but the AI is this massive all seeing cockblocker, that requires a huge amount of effort to try get around, and you just know it will spend the rest of the round trrying to catch you because it can.

Giving traitors more tc's just means that can buy more bombs.


Well, the AI did get a battery of nerfs already, but I think it's time to bite the bullet and accept that just because a feature is QOL doesn't make it inviolable. Remove hotkey bolting for non-traitor AIs, make the AI only able to see job names on radio, remove the ability for it to see someone's name by mousing over them - the works.


how many times do we have to say nerfing the interface is completely stupid?

If you want a delay to bolting add a timer, don't fuck over the UI.
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Ikarrus
 
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:10 pm #103166

Unless someone fucked with latejoin antags it should produce the same number of traitors as if everyone joined at round start, with a discrepancy no larger than 1.
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Tornadium » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:40 pm #103172

Fuck no,

It's already a fucking nightmare to deal with.

Try not to make security's job even more chaotic and unfun please.

God damn those fucking

3 Ling
9 Traitor
1 Traitor AI with 6 fucking borg rounds.

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Miauw
 
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Miauw » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:59 pm #103178

maybe you should git gud

there's a big ole destroy all borgs button in the RDs office, and if that console is dead you should consider bombing the AI sat.
Last edited by Miauw on Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Increase antag scaling

Postby Oldman Robustin » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:13 pm #103182

More antag scaling also improves QoL for each traitor, your ability to get away with crime is hugely impacted by how active the other antagonists are. In a chaotic round a sec officer can shout "Help Science maint! Dying!!" and nobody will even show up to help. In a quiet round you'll have every officer, a secborg, and the HoS sweeping science maint for 5 minutes with the detective taking prints from nearby airlocks... and someone will probably grab a space suit to check space for your corpse too.

For each antag actually doing their job, it becomes easier for other antags to act out as well.

Traitors just need +10TC. Even the risk of MUHBOMB isn't what it used to now that defusals are more common and 30TC actually increases your opportunity to do OTHER interesting traitor plays. When syndiebombs were cheaper the problem was that traitors were still complete trash so dropping two bombs was literally the most interesting thing you could do. With 30TC I now I would much rather try to do some other crazy schemes rather than just drop syndiebombs.

Syndiebombs could also be rescaled again to 16TC if you're REALLY that worried.

Seriously though, this is SUCH AN EASY CHANGE, easy to add, easy to revert, and god knows I might actually be afraid of traitors again.

Tornadium wrote:Fuck no,

It's already a fucking nightmare to deal with.

Try not to make security's job even more chaotic and unfun please.


Hey guys, I found the officer that walks around with a baton in his hands, carries one pair of cuffs, tries to taze double-esword users, and then peppersprays a hardsuited engineer.
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