Hand Of God

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:00 am #124218

This thread is to help get feedback on the, currently under testing, Hand of God game mode. Made by Remie Richards.

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I played in one round, as Security, so my feedback currently is from Sec's perspective.

So myself, a Officer and the Captain get a call that the HoP is attacking and killing a Officer in the toilets near arrivals. So myself and a Officer go down to secure the area, we get to the toilets, find the HoP and some people, and flashbang the areas.

As we move I suddenly get stunned out of the blue! My Officer moves to help my and shakes me but then he gets stunned. I procede to lay on the ground for ten plus seconds until all the people we stunned rush out and beat us to death.

All of Security and most of the Command staff died off within ten minutes of round start, leaving the two god factions to fight themselves.

I'm not really a fan of being stunned forever out of the blue, the stun is definitely more powerful than a normal stun and I get put to sleep as well. Considering the gods could stun the entire security team that's really not a good thing.

I thought the original design document never gave the god a stunning power, a offensive lightning cast that dealt damage but no stunning?

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:27 am #124226

The god stun is bad, I was the HoP and the blue god's prophet in Steelpoint's story and the god stun just keep them down till I came in and lazered them to death. Not fair nor fun at all for enemy cultists, sec, crew, etc..

Also material costs for buildings is rather high, even more so for what starts on station at the beginning of the round.

Also there are no messages upon conversion I believe, but it is in it's testing phases so figure that's something obvious.

That all said, it's an interesting concept and game mode. God makes buildings for people to build, sends orders to prophet, prophet tells their cult, it's a lot of fun. Nothing like yelling out about how the god wants all the buildings made because your god's name is FUCKING AUTISM and the autism must be satisfied. Needs work, clearly, but could be very fun.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:34 am #124228

Right now I'm being the sole admin on the server helping the gods due to the fact the server use's coderbus's admin list, so I'm a admin.

There's a annoying bug where the Gods don't get a prophet spawned, so I have to get players to volunteer. Also there's no guarantee the prophets will listen to the god.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:47 am #124231

So is this mode hopefully going to replace cult eventually? So far it seems to have some promise, but letting team antags have stuns is baaaad.

Pizza Dog · Post by **Pizza Dog** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:09 am #124237

Would be cool if the gods could have them build constructs or something like that, So the dead sec team that gets murdered can come back to life and have a good time.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:03 pm #124288

I observed quite a lot on the testing server, and here's some issues I've noticed.

A lot of gods lose because they aren't told why placing their nexus in a very isolated location is a bad idea.
Most of the structures have no hint as to their function and no visible messages. This is especially the case with the healing fountain, where people were trying to attack it with water-filled beakers to fill it up.
Cultists can step on their own god's traps.
If a god uses an ability with no target, it still uses up faith.
The healing fountain has no construction sprite. I had to manually set one every time they were constructed.
Nexii aren't destroyed when they should be.
I'm the best admin

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:26 pm #124296

I think there needs to be two way communication between the God and the Prophet, while it's less thematic I've witnessed from admining that a lot of Gods and Prophets get frustrated as they cannot easily communicate with one another.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:35 pm

Zilenan can you tell the jury where the cultists touched you using this doll as a reference?

Seriously, do you just Control+F "cult" and then post about how cult needs to be removed?

More game modes is a good thing.

astralenigma · Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:46 pm

This is a mix of the blobs RTS system with a gang of players instead of using blob parts.

From what I heard from Remie the god is supposed to spawn with 3 followers and then choose a prophet among them, that isn't happening either as far as I know, I don't know if it's due to the use of the debug-game or it's really broken.

The Holy slumber power described in steelpoint's thread is overpowered as far as I have seen it costs 20 points and I don't know if it ignores the area of power of the god and it's main use should be to stun people enough to be converted but it's being used as a stun lock tool, right now the only ways that I can think of (reading the game description) to counter this is:

Keep running around so the invisible hand of god doesn't touch you.
Have the chaplain's null rod.

The Holy Slumber power could be nerfed with either a cooldown or make it an one-use item for auti-cultists like the stun talisman.
Honestly speaking this is a round where the chaplain would shine like in any cult.
I tried to deconvert myself after what I suppose an admin converted me so the cultist didn't kill me and due to the fact that the red team was dead after the captain (red's prophet) was caught killing or converting people (I don't remember exactly) and the nexus was discovered immediately.
Right now the comunity is a bit like let's put this guys into crit first and then we convert, maybe the god could spawn some restraints since I see a lot of beat and drag usually coming from the heads and their batons (although some people seem to still think that people can run away after being pulled and restrained so I say it's a comunity problem).

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:55 pm #124304

A uncountable ability to stun a group of people forever (at least 10+ seconds) is a bad system.

With Tasers and similar you can at least see it before it hits you, maybe even dodge it.

I'm not against Prophets and Followers have some basic stunning tools provided to them by the god, but a cheap and unseeable stun that renders you unable to talk is crap.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:58 pm #124305

Having an uncounterable stun is fucking bad.

Really fucking bad.

Remie Richards · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:26 pm

Nothing mentioned in the thread here is really new, but thanks for being a living todo list

as for trap-teamkills, it's intentional due to their low price, plus making them LOOK team specific would be kinda weird (give me a sprite for all 5 traps and I'll do it) but I'd definitely up the 20 to 30 then.
Nexus not deleting itself is a weird one, it totally should.
No followers or prophets is almost CERTAINLY due to the freaky-broken lowpop we've been testing the mode with.
2 way communication will be a thing, I just forgot it.
Stun can go bai bai
You're told your Nexus is your health, so that should be obvious.
Almost all the structures have descriptions which explain their use, of course this requires building one.
Turrets are going to get an on/off because lol killing my own team's converts.

Other stuff:
Structure price was a thing people mentioned, so I'm thinking:
Knock 5-10 off of each Glass and Metal cost
Lower Structure construction from 75 to 50

Thanks everybody, "polishing" should happen today or tomorrow.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:47 pm #124442

Would it be possible to get a list of the buildings and the effects they have? And dropping materials by ten or so would be fine.

Remie Richards · Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:30 pm

Aliannera wrote:Would it be possible to get a list of the buildings and the effects they have? And dropping materials by ten or so would be fine.

Uh sure.

Defence pylon: Shoots people
Power pylon: produces more faith for a god
Sacrifice altar: Sacrifices mobs to get lesser and greater gems for rarer structures
Convert altar: Converts people to the god's side
Conduit: Acts as a Nexus for determining whether a god can use their abilities (range booster for abilities basicaly)
Shrine: Objective building, might add something to it, idk.
Healing Fountain: Should be obvious, heals matching cultists, hurts enemy cultists who drink from it

Some unfinished buildings that will eventually appear (fully coded, just need sprites):
Translocator: the god can move their nexus to a friendly translocator, destroying the translocator - requires a greater gem
Lazarus altar: revives the dead - requires a greater gem

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:46 pm #124517

I wouldn't mind if the God had an ability like a lightning strike that could only hit their own cultists. Disobeying your god requires punishment, after all.

You mind giving the stats on the defense pylon?

One last thing, do you plan on replacing cult with this once it's finished?

Remie Richards · Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 pm

Zilenan91 wrote:I wouldn't mind if the God had an ability like a lightning strike that could only hit their own cultists. Disobeying your god requires punishment, after all.

You mind giving the stats on the defense pylon?

One last thing, do you plan on replacing cult with this once it's finished?

15 damage per shot.
It's AI is that of the syndicate mothership turrets, but with a range of 7 (screen range) rather than the default of 9 (sees you before you see it)

the idea isn't to replace cult.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:03 am #124526

But won't cult be redundant if this was put in alongside it? I mean, from a design perspective, it already sounds like it's miles better than the sad state cult is in even despite the bugs and it being generally unfinished.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:08 am #124530

What is your friggin problem with cult man? The two are completely different it would be insane to remove cult. Some people actually enjoy it

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:29 am #124580

My problem with cult is that giving a very fast spreading team antag long duration stuns is awful.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:21 pm #124737

Zilenan91 wrote:My problem with cult is that giving a very fast spreading team antag long duration stuns is awful.

Stunpaper duration is only a tiny bit longer than a stunbaton. It's only fast-spreading because it's only two to convert.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:21 pm #124761

It's 10 seconds. That's an almost 50% increase in stun length, and it mutes for 15 seconds, with cultists being able to shit out 30+ of these at any given time. Having 2 or 3 dudes with these would be good, but having 5 or 6 dudes with these is insane.

TechnoAlchemist · Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:56 pm

wow haha guys this thread isn't about cult!

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:38 am #124802

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:54 am #124805

where do you even get these images about horrible train derailings

ShadowDimentio · Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:52 am

STOP BITCHING ABOUT CULT YOU AUTIST

Okay so something that could be done to the stun is simply giving it like a 7 second cooldown. Personally, I think that having a stun for the god is fine, because there's only going to be one god at a time. Plus, aiming it is sure to be a bitch.

Bawhoppennn · Post by **Bawhoppennn** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:09 am #124877

After playing several rounds of this, including on the test server and with actual pop on sybil, I can say this needs ALOT of work done for balancing. As is its really not even playable.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:09 am #124878

Gods need to be able to delete structures
Check antag needs to show antags
There needs to be a way to revive or make a new god
For the sake of communication, prophets should be able to talk to their gods if this isn't already a thing
Structures need damaged iconstates or disappear or something once their health is at 0
Cultists need to know what their god's objectives are.
Round end message is non-existent.
A borged cultist retained it's antag hud icon.

There is promise in the game mechanics but it needs a lot more work.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:22 am #124881

Ok after a 40-50 pop game on Sybil, which was probably the most frustrating experience I've ever had, here is my feedback.

As everyone has said, Sleep is ggnore awful shit.
The structures lead to this mess of solid objects just utterly clogging up where ever you've setup your base. Ours in science became a nightmare trying to move around it.

Cultists have no clue what to do - the god rarely whispers to them, and the prophet just occasionally shouted to do some simple task.
I had no clue the entire game what the god's objectives were (if any), so had no real direction other then build up numbers, equipment and power.

The other god spawned right in cargo, and got lynched after like 2 minutes, which was pretty shit.
On the flip side, I didn't actually KNOW it was dead till almost the end of thee round, because the nexus was still there, and again, no feedback that the enemy god had been ganked.

Apparently we're supposed to sac the enemy prophet? How are we supposed to identify them?

I think the ability for the god to disseminate orders to their followers (either directly or via the prophet) needs to be buffed very significantly. Currently it's like rev, only you've got objectives, but you don't know what they are, and neither does anyone else. Communication would make this far more enjoyable and less of a frustrating "what the fuck do I do?" situation.
The god should be able to smite people or some shit, not just lel infinisleep everyone ever.
The god should totally be able to use one of their followers as a temporary vessel, to be able to walk around the mortal realm and fuck nerds up. Downside would be the vessel would need to consume gems or some shit, or quickly expire, gibbing the meat suit and making the god ephemeral again.

Has a lot of potential, but currently it's not really playable.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:56 pm #124938

I dunno, I think an invisible, mostly unkillable "ghost" being able to smite people anywhere is kinda shit. Would be nice if the gods could smite their own cultists though if their performance was unsatisfactory.

Remie Richards · Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:44 pm

Zilenan91 wrote:anywhere.

1. They already have a Smite ability.
2. You can only use Smite and Lullaby near your Nexus or near a Conduit, which requires you to either be at home base OR somewhere your cult already occupies and built structures in, it's so you don't have to sit there while 1 guy destroys your everything while your cult are off memeing the other cult.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:29 am #125069

During my story in the OP Remie there were absolutely no visible cult structures anywhere, in fact the most dangerous thing I saw was a HoP with the Captains Laser.

When I was dead I then saw where the structures were, most of them were in the toilet stalls and the God's Core was in that small 2x1 maint room where the Nuke Disks spawns if destroyed.

It sounds good on paper to have a instant stun ability that is utterly uncounterable if your near a cult structure (actually that sounds terrible) but that falls apart even more when you can't even see those buildings.

The Stun ability has to go, smite is fine but the idiotic stun is too powerful even if nerfed.

Just get rid of it.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:32 am #125077

Why not a limited number of charges for it? Basically make it an 'oh shit' button or something to use early to catch people, but something that you can't spam or you're left shit out of luck.

Or get rid of it. Either or.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:41 am #125079

Limited use would be ok - getting caught out early by one guy wandering around would be pretty shit.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:57 am #125082

Yeah if it had like 3 uses that would be okay.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:11 am #125113

Something like a slow controllable anomaly that gods can spawn in and move around may be a good replacement for smite/lullaby.

Like the gravitational anomaly for example, a god can spawn that in and knock people about if they try to get close.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:48 am #125123

grav anomaly is a fucking murdermachine - that thing can and will chain stun you, and kill you by wall slamming you in like 5 fucking seconds flat.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:29 pm #125149

well yeah, a slow moving one. It could also cost more faith but hey anything is better than lullaby, no?

Bawhoppennn · Post by **Bawhoppennn** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:46 pm #128517

The concept is good, but in my opinion there should be less physical structures OR a physical way to kill a god, as opposed to the power of the god being of the followers of that god. If you kill all the followers then essentially the god is dead.

Remie Richards · Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:48 pm

Killing the Nexus kills the god.

asskek · Post by **asskek** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:17 am #128970

just

make it so if you're wearing something rubber, the smite doesn't stun you

if that is the uncounterable stun we're talking about

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:15 pm #129077

Lullaby is the stun, smite does damage.

Bawhoppennn · Post by **Bawhoppennn** » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:25 am #129199

Remie Richards wrote:Killing the Nexus kills the god.

Thats what I mean. Right now its like that, but I think thematically it would make more sense (and possibly as a gameplay mechanic) that there is no physical idol of the god you must destroy to kill it, instead you must kill/weaken the following of that god.

Remie Richards · Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:33 am

Assisted by tkdrg, this is being finished!
tkdrg made a list of goals based on the github comments and issues raised in this thread, we talked over them, and have produced an outline and chosen tasks to do each.

Don't let your dreams be memes.