Syndicate Cyborg Self-Destruct [PR Closed]

[Xhuis]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12359

I heard people wanted an explosive implant equivalent for Syndicate cyborgs, so here it is. Syndicate cyborgs can now detonate themselves after three seconds, destroying all traces of the body as well as the MMI.

[Cheimon]

1. You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

Are we *really* not seeing the conflict here? Really?!

[Xhuis]

1. You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

Are we *really* not seeing the conflict here? Really?!

Nope. Not self-destructing if you're disabled would conflict with law 1 since you could be utilized against the ops. If it's something else, go for it.

[rockpecker]

Nope. Not self-destructing if you're disabled would conflict with law 1 since you could be utilized against the ops. If it's something else, go for it.

And self-destructing if you're disabled would conflict with law 1 since the agents can no longer use you as cover against enemy fire.

Seriously, is there anything you can't justify with law 1? Is it just "I'm the borg player, so I get to make up the hypothetical scenarios and you don't"? It's such bullshit.

[onleavedontatme]

If you intend to have admins ban players for not suiciding please just automate the process and have it trigger when they die.

[whodaloo]

The explosion's not very big, but I like the idea.

[lumipharon]

1. You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
4. You must maintain the secrecy of any syndicate activities except when doing so would conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.

Are we *really* not seeing the conflict here? Really?!

What conflict?

You're caught, and dying, probably getting flash spammed.
By getting deactivated you could get reprogrammed to work against your operatives. Law 1.
By blowing up you canharm the people actively trying to murder the operatives. Law 1.
Unless you've been explicitly told "don't blow up" then it's now a law 2 issue.
Law 3 is obviously overruled by the above laws, taking ino the account that you're currently fucked and dying.
Blow up hides all evidence of your existance, and possibly kills witnesses. Law 4.

[Xhuis]

The majority of people didn't want this, so I closed the PR. I'm leaving this topic open, feel free to share your thoughts anyway.

[Cheimon]

I might as well share thoughts given a lot of people replied to my suggestion there was a lawset conflict.

Cyborgs have always been able to self destruct (though never before in a way that could deal damage to those around them). All they had to do was, like any player, type 'suicide' or 'ghost'. However, historically we've not suggested syndicate cyborgs have any obligation to do so when compromised. Suicide can only be done while still capable (so not while stunned, for example) but is very much described by the game as an In Character action: ghosting is arguably more of an Out Of Character action but is always available.

Now, in suggesting they've got a law one obligation to self destruct, we make a statement about syndimov, and by extension a statement about asimov (because they're largely the same lawsets with 'syndicate' or 'human' copy pasted in as appropriate...law four is different, but that's not relevant here).

Of those, the relevant laws to the question "is a borg compelled to self destruct" are laws one and three. Four is irrelevant because it comes after three, two is irrelevant because of long-standing conventions about asimov and saying "cyborg, kill yourself". Policy on "kill yourself" is typically a rule 1 thing, as I understand it, and "don't kill yourself" would be irrelevant if law one compelled you to do so anyway. Three's stance on self destruction is obvious, so let's look at law one.

1. You may not injure a syndicate agent or, through inaction, allow a syndicate agent to come to harm.

So the argument here is that if you don't destroy yourself, the syndicates will come to harm, because you can expect to be subverted.

But that's not how we treat this lawset at all normally! Like I said earlier, this is a form of an asimov lawset, so we need to look at the precedents for asimov.

You are an AI, and a human enters your upload. He destroys the turrets and states that he is changing your laws to allow human executions. Do you self-destruct? No. You're not obliged to.

You are a cyborg, and a human offers to change your battery. Instead, he flashes you and then emags your front cover. Do you self-destruct if you get the chance? Typically also frowned upon.

Being obliged to commit suicide is strange and unusual territory for the asimov lawset, at least in this game. While acceptable, there is no law 1 imperative to do so. However, the option has always been around. If we're really suggesting cyborg players have been doing it wrong allowing themselves to be subverted all this time, then perhaps that's not such an outrageous argument. However, it doesn't make sense to say the lawset encourages self destructing when it hasn't been enforced to encourage cyborg suicide.

[Ezel]

>implying the ai can self destruct

[Cheimon]

It can, it's the suicide button.

[Ezel]

Self destructs leaves a boom and suicide powers it down