nerfs dihydrogen monoxide

Post by **MMMiracles** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:09 am #131340

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12831

its everywhere and in infinite supply that can be applied by just about any reagent-holding container. spacemen do extreme cardio and never stop running fuck you its just WATER THIS ISNT REAL LIFE DONT COMPARE IT HERE IT DOESN'T EVEN WORK.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:11 am #131342

second thread caused by a single round, right?

Post by **MMMiracles** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:14 am #131345

its more of a consistent view of many rounds showing the true dangers of this easily available but oh-so deadly bond.

Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:33 am

reminder that water is countered by clicking a button on your hud

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:32 am #131362

PKPenguin321 wrote:reminder that water is countered by clicking a button on your hud

Lasers and tasers can also be soft countered by using an IC command, but that doesn't make them any less hampering or deadly.

/s what is this shitposting thread?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:39 am #131367

The game needs ways to kill people. Nerfing everything that makes you able to kill someone to the ground will NOT improve the game.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:55 am #131370

CPTANT wrote:The game needs ways to kill people. Nerfing everything that makes you able to kill someone to the ground will NOT improve the game.

Too bad it took this long for this sentiment to be more prevalent.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:44 pm #131378

YES!
ANOTHER STUN FOR THE NERF GOD!
SOON THE ULTIMATE DREAM OF ONLY SECURITY HAVING GOOD STUNS WILL BE HERE!

TheNightingale · Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:16 pm

It still stuns you and forces you to drop things, and you can still slip someone and hit them with a stunprod/dual esword/ebow/armblade before they can react. It's just less imbalanced now. Compare old-water to old-tabling, if you will - easy to do, very effective, chainable for a Bad Time. New-water is like disarming someone and shoving them on the floor - they'll recover quickly, but they lose whatever's in their hands.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:17 pm #131385

Because ss13 is known for its highly skilled and robust combat system.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:22 pm #131387

I only think we should nerf this to justify the full circle of nerfing all offensive and defensive items we've been doing for years.

Maybe after this suddenly everyone will have a epiphany and we'll revert all of the combat changes we made, from eguns and water, slips and armor, guns to antag items and from spells to bombs.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:31 pm #131390

I wonder how long it'll be until we reach the point of "no stuns ever, you only stop moving when you're dead"

Hell, we almost had it from that one PR with being able to crawl around while in crit or something like that.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:37 pm #131391

Goonstation does that, to a extent. But we don't have any form of Goon's medical system and thus it would be incompatible unless we effected a major overhaul of everything.

We're so far down the rabbit hole it'll take more effort to back track than to keep digging.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:20 pm #131409

Bluespace wrote:YES!
ANOTHER STUN FOR THE NERF GOD!
SOON THE ULTIMATE DREAM OF ONLY SECURITY HAVING GOOD STUNS WILL BE HERE!

Summates half of my opinion on the matter. Since feedback here is meaningless, I'm posting only on git.

Basically, easily counterable by a button, the spray is as loud as an esword and has a 1s delay specifically so you can react, is countered by a cheap traitor item or magboots, zero grav, etc. Also countered by walking around the puddle. It has an obvious sprite, and while visibility isn't the best in maintenance, you can at least hear it with ample warning. Git gud.

Just another nerf for the nerf gods. And people wonder why I spam the shit out of security equipment in 'boring' murderboners instead of doing fun shit after all these nerfs, departmental or not.

At least xenobio is being buffed, even though it's still kinda slow since slimes only eat so fast.

DrPillzRedux · Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:29 pm

I don't know what you're talking about, goon has some long ass stuns. Water just isn't stupidly OP on goon and has a slip time of a single second. Unless you're a fucking whale getting up after slipping on water isn't going to take the amount of time it does here.

Oldman Robustin · Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:55 pm

Lube should be visible

Water is fine

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:40 pm #131436

Also why are nerfs like this also completely overdone. Its a nerf from good to completely useless. Its never "hey water is a bit overdone, lets nerf the stuntime by a second instead of nerfing it to the ground"

perhaps water IS a bit overdone, a small change like a stuntime to 3 would be fine. Just like tabling would have been fine if tweaked to 3 or 4 seconds instead of completely bashing it into the ground too.

DrPillzRedux · Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:48 pm

Slipping on water still makes you drop your weapon. That is far from useless.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:13 pm #131448

If ikky's changes to slipping were never added, then yes, this nerf would be near useless. Heres the thing, though.

You still THROW your weapon when you slip. Its not like a regular disarm/push/table where the weapon is right under them. Its now 4-5 tiles away from them, most likely next to you now with how most slip traps are based around the victim slipping towards the trapper.

Its far from useless, its just not an end-all crutch anymore.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:54 pm #131479

What if instead of making water completely retardedly weak, we instead change spraybottles so they don't make puddles of water when spraying.

or increase the amount of water needed for a puddle to 15u or something.

onleavedontatme · Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:09 pm

Yes you can see them spraying it but you are then forced to walk meaning, they will pretty much always escape. It's extremely difficult/near impossible to pursue someone with a high capacity area denial weapon that they're likely immune to.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:47 pm #131489

Ok this is mainly abused by people with a spraybottle.

Why does a tiny spraybottle hold the multitude of the amount of reagents a fire extinquisher or bucket can hold?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:11 pm #131519

The issue isn't that it can hold so much, the issue is that it stuns for 4 seconds, literally one second less than a taser and you have a functionally infinite amount of it with a space cleaner bottle.

Incomptinence · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:36 am

Water is good fine and crystal clear.

ShadowDimentio · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:43 am

STOP TRYING TO NERF WATER JESUS.

IF YOU WANT TO NERF WATER, BRING BACK STUN COMBAT. BECAUSE THIS IS WHY WATER HAS BECOME PREVALENT. IT'S ONE OF THE LAST GOOD STUNS THAT AREN'T INTENSELY GUARDED BY SECURITY.

JUST STAY AWAY FROM MY BREAD AND BUTTER YOU CUCKS

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:49 am #131555

If you think our combat system has problems, then make feedback threads about how you can fix it rather than trying to go back to the old ways that we got rid of because they didn't work in the first place.

Incomptinence · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:59 am

Any working system would be eaten alive by pulls like this.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:16 am #131571

>shit gets nerfed
>people use the best shit remaining
>that gets nerfed
>people use the new best shit
>that gets nerfed

People will always find the best way to murder scrubs, and water is far away from being overpowered. It's visible, doesn't move, requires you specifically to move over it while running without noslips/mag boots/no grav/hulk.
If truly think this is a serious balance issue - walking blindly into visible water patches, then I'll unironicly say "git gud".

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:19 am #131572

Lumi have you played in the past few months? Have you seen just how bad Amelius abuses this? It's not really something I can describe with words, it's truly stupid.

Super Aggro Crag · Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:39 am

Zilenan91 wrote:Lumi have you played in the past few months? Have you seen just how bad Amelius abuses this? It's not really something I can describe with words, it's truly stupid.

then make up an excuse to ban amelius rather than punishing everyone else

or make him a fucking meme like Cuban Pete

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:20 am #131580

Or revert all stun nerfs made in the past year and see what we get.

Or just nerf water and wait a month until we nerf stun prods, spears, or whatever else becomes popular.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:30 am #131583

Thing about spears and prods, those things are fair. With spears you can reliably run, have a shield, or just have a more robust weapon/be lucky with disarms. If they throw it you can keep that throw button held down so you catch and rek the shit out of them

Prods only stun as long as a taser and can only be used 5 times compared to the 25 a spray bottle full of water can be used.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:43 am #131586

Saegrimr wrote:I wonder how long it'll be until we reach the point of "no stuns ever, you only stop moving when you're dead"

Hell, we almost had it from that one PR with being able to crawl around while in crit or something like that.

I've been saying this for some time, remove all one-hit stunners and let's move to damage/stamina-based combat.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:06 pm #131680

Put a poll up MMMiracles.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:26 pm #131687

I don't think we need a poll for this. My guess is that you're just desperate to not get water nerfed.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:44 pm #131731

Zilenan91 wrote:Lumi have you played in the past few months? Have you seen just how bad Amelius abuses this? It's not really something I can describe with words, it's truly stupid.

>one person using a mechanic that has been in the game since well before I started playing
>a mechanic that has already been severely nerfed more recently
Stop the press yo.

Raging murderboners will always use the best way to murderbone. If you think spray bottles are unfair, nerf those.
Symptom is not the cause.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:49 pm #131733

lumipharon wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote:Lumi have you played in the past few months? Have you seen just how bad Amelius abuses this? It's not really something I can describe with words, it's truly stupid.
>one person using a mechanic that has been in the game since well before I started playing
>a mechanic that has already been severely nerfed more recently
Stop the press yo.

Raging murderboners will always use the best way to murderbone. If you think spray bottles are unfair, nerf those.
Symptom is not the cause.

spraybottles holding 250u of reagents while things like large beakers only hold 100u and buckets only 50u feels kinda odd when you think about it.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:55 pm #131738

Pretty much.

Also daily reminder that we have pr's to merge shit like easily avoidable water, while we still have SABR's in R&D that have 42 shots per mag, and you can carry like 200 spare mags in a bluespace garbage bag.
And for a traitor with an emag, it takes like 10 minutes plus some minerals to get them.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:35 pm #131748

The reason why nobody is nerfing SABRs and garbage bags is because nobody abuses them like Amelius abuses water. If something happens a lot more attention is drawn to it, and so it's being nerfed.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:40 pm #131750

Because it's not the best (or in this case) easiest way to murderbone.
Cut the tall poppy and people go to the next on the list.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:44 pm #131753

If the ammo count worries you so much, its pretty easy to set up a github branch and change a value and PR it. Like, ridiculously easy. There's a guide and everything on the wiki explaining step-by-step on how to set up everything properly.

I can't exactly guarantee the merge part but anyone's free to contribute.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:51 pm #131754

I tried one time but something on the wiki was incorrect or something, so I didn't bother because I'm a lazy cunt.
It's also beside the point.

The point is that there are objectively broken shit in the game that haven't been addressed, compared to an extremely old mechanic that has already been nerfed in the past (possibly twice), which depends solely on you, the target running blindly over it.
It's a reactive thing - it doesn't do anything to you unless you let it.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:05 pm #131757

If water was a thing on its own, then I guess I wouldn't see an issue with it.

The issue is, there's literally no reason to use any other slipping item when water is what it is.

Space lube requires chem access to produce, soap is in limited supply, and banana peels can range from weak-as-shit to "worse than space hitler".

Water requires no special access or mixing, is in infinite supply, and is a reliable stun that unlike every single other slip-item (excluding lube), has a concealable sprite. There is no reason what-so ever to use anything else when water is what it is.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:30 pm #131759

But water is far harder to conceal then soap or a peel.
You can hide them under other items/slipped scrub, where as it's quite hard to completely hide an entire water tile(other then under airlocks).

Also clown pda and default (or greater) peels have retardedly long stuns. The clown pda is twice as long as as a taser, the clown roundstart peel is something similar, while a 100 potency, infinitely spammable peel is coffe break tier stun.
You can also throw them in front of someone, and because of how throw mechanics work, you can't really do anything to avoid it, other then pre-emptively moving erratically knowing they're going to try.

And walking doesn't stop soap or peel slips.

I can totally see nerfing spraybottle total volume, or limiting how easy it is to wet floors with a spray (more units needed etc), but nerfing water slips themselves doesn't make sense.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:10 am #131780

Water is a transparent overlay that depending on the tile, is either really obvious or really, really hard to see. Just like every other slip item, you aren't going to react to it in time mid-run or mid-combat unless you know exactly how the person fights. Water is practically instant unless the person is behind you directly, at least all the other shit when thrown a distance actually says it in the chat.

Telling people to 'just walk' is really dumb because that just cripples your movement immensely, and if it was a pursuit, you just most likely lost sight of them because you had to delicately step through a tiny water puddle in order to avoid sitting on your ass for the next 4-5 seconds.

Unless something is effectively done to kill the viability of just carrying a spray bottle full of water to be an AoD tool then this is the next best step.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:23 am #131782

We need some sort of no-drop stun where the victim doesn't drop their stuff.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:27 am #131783

invisty wrote:We need some sort of no-drop stun where the victim doesn't drop their stuff.

I'm pretty sure theres a "paralyze" which is what either the beepsky smash or neurotoxin bar drink does. I forget which.

ShadowDimentio · Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:38 am

What idiot carries valuable stuff anyways

Doing that's just BEGGING someone to push you over and run off with it.

But seriously anyone who thinks moving away from stun combat is a good idea is an idiot. Paprika's changes are all bad memes and we should go back to the formula that worked and wasn't a constant stream of nerfing things into oblivion until we're all in foamstation, where everything is covered in foam and does 1 damage, and if you die you automatically get healed back to full.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:47 am #131793

ShadowDimentio wrote: But seriously anyone who thinks moving away from stun combat is a good idea is an idiot. Paprika's changes are all bad memes and we should go back to the formula that worked and wasn't a constant stream of nerfing things into oblivion until we're all in foamstation, where everything is covered in foam and does 1 damage, and if you die you automatically get healed back to full.

I wouldn't want to move from stun-based combat either unless some major overhauls were done to keep shit bearable for security while making gameplay still interesting, but c'mon man you can't just talk about how an idea might as well be hitler's incarnation and spew hyperbole statements without at least giving SOME sort of evidence towards your point past '2MANYNERFS HUGBOX ;d".

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:21 am #131805

Saegrimr wrote:
invisty wrote:We need some sort of no-drop stun where the victim doesn't drop their stuff.
I'm pretty sure theres a "paralyze" which is what either the beepsky smash or neurotoxin bar drink does. I forget which.

Beepsky Smash only makes you drop things, it doesn't do anything else, whereas bar neurotoxin is just a really long lasting stun which will also make you drop things and is really good.

EDIT: Also I think the premise of both this thread and this pull request is really dumb and I don't support this nerf!

Nerfing slips