Sleeping carp scroll in Uplink

[lzimann]

Some say it is op, some say you need to get good. What are your thoughts on the scroll being available in the uplink? Do you feel like it needs a price change to more/less TCs?

[DemonFiren]

It's OP for changelings.

actually it's OP in the hands of anyone who isn't me or an ally of mine.

[Malkevin]

I'd say it isn't any more cheesy than a double esword, but double eswords atleast have the detective's hand cannon to fear.

Remove both of them to be honest.

[Zilenan91]

Kor had a pr up that made it so lings couldn't use sleeping carp but he closed it after he killed an entire station with it.

[onleavedontatme]

I'd say it isn't any more cheesy than a double esword, but double eswords atleast have the detective's hand cannon to fear.

Remove both of them to be honest.

You can see a double esword, you can lose a double esword, a doublesword prevents you from using stuns/takes up both your hands, and so forth.

It seems pretty OP to have passive, invisible projectile immunity.

Kor had a pr up that made it so lings couldn't use sleeping carp but he closed it after he killed an entire station with it.

Don't forget the multiple ERTs afterwards.

[Zilenan91]

It's probably for the best that an antag that can remove stuns, heal forever, and revive after death can't have projectile immunity

[Malkevin]

I'd say it isn't any more cheesy than a double esword, but double eswords atleast have the detective's hand cannon to fear.

Remove both of them to be honest.

You can see a double esword, you can lose a double esword, a doublesword prevents you from using stuns/takes up both your hands, and so forth.

It seems pretty OP to have passive, invisible projectile immunity.

Oh yeah thats major cheese, my point though was that projectile immunity is cheesy enough and its why antags go so loud so much.

[Bluespace]

it's not op. very easy to use any sort of melee stun to take them down.

[Zilenan91]

Well yeah but if they're a ling they can heal forever, or use their carp powers to quickchoke you

[lumipharon]

>full projectile immunity
>throw syndie cards/tiles at people 5ever
>no one can stop your memeass because you have a helmet on to stop flashbangs

[TechnoAlchemist]

Let me just clarify that me and my fellow miner killed those ERT in protection of Kor, kor didn't really murder any of them

[Malkevin]

>admin metafriend circle jerk

Its like threadstrong and packet all over again.

[PKPenguin321]

I'd say it isn't any more cheesy than a double esword, but double eswords atleast have the detective's hand cannon to fear.

Remove both of them to be honest.

you can lose a double esword

technically you can lose your karate too
the bug where it's attached to the body instead of the mind never got fixed, meaning you can implant a loyal crewman's brain into a dead kung fu traitor and get karate

[lumipharon]

that's hilarious.

[Malkevin]

>body exploits

It's like dante the lingman all over again

[Incomptinence]

Body of a natural-born kung-fu genius.

[lumipharon]

I'm actually inclined to almost call that a feature considering how important physical training/muscle memory/etc is for that sort of thing ( Cloning sort of puts the spanner in that theory though). Obviously technique is pretty key too, but hey, if spess men can know literally everything about anything, what's a little kungfu knowledge?

[yackemflam]

I'm actually inclined to almost call that a feature considering how important physical training/muscle memory/etc is for that sort of thing ( Cloning sort of puts the spanner in that theory though). Obviously technique is pretty key too, but hey, if spess men can know literally everything about anything, what's a little kungfu knowledge?

Muscle memory is actually your brain reacting. Not your body.
Physical training for strengths yeah but your brain has all of the info on where to strike, how fast you should move, when to strike, etc. And i'm pretty sure all spessmen are pretty fit considering how everyone is either running or able to survive SPACE and get to medbay to patch themselves up.

Balancewise, fuck dat shit a sec officer with kungfu is too robust.

[Oldman Robustin]

It's fine. When I made it 17TC people complained, but its clearly at a good place since 17TC pretty much prevents any other memery (emags, adrenals, etc.) from taking place.

Carp fu memesters excel when the crew gets shit on one by one and nobody makes a concerted effort to drop them. Once people gang up and chase one, they're usually hopeless because their abilities don't really handle groups wells.

Earlier a round was going to hell and a carp fu traitor had killed around 10 people. Everyone was bitching about it until lo-and-behold a single non-retarded crew member hit them with a stunprod and it was over.

I can't fathom how this is OP. You need to land multiple melee hits to kill someone, whereas a single jerkoff greyshirt with a stunprod only needs to hit you once. Let alone the flashbang/baton stunspam available to every head of staff and security member.

I'll be making a ling nerf soon. Not because I think lings actually need a nerf, but because people keep fucking with balance and making these snowflake rules all because MUH LING BALANCE.

[Incomptinence]

Nerfing an antag that was so weak it got removed from rotation for the sake of an edgecase antag like traitorling?

Just make traitorling no longer a thing it is a snowflake of its own like you don't normally see rev gangers.

If a ling kills a traitor with that many crystals left on and unlocked PDA they earned it.

[TheNightingale]

It's worst in lowpop rounds, where multiple people fighting someone at once basically never happens; if the sleeping carp user gets ahold of a stunbaton, or even just uses their insta-stun melee moves to drop someone... game over, man, game over.

The issue isn't "Is the SC user more robust than five crewmembers?"; it's "Is the SC user more robust than one crewmember, five times in a row?".

[Ezel]

Sleeping carp fear list
1 - Baton
2 - Stunprod
3 - Objects thrown at you
4 - Chairs
5 - Flashbangs
6 - Hypospray with dangerous chems
7 - Bombs

So why is sleeping carp op again when a assistant can produce a stunprod to take you down

[Oldman Robustin]

Don't forget spray bottles (slips, or chems like neurotoxin that fuck you up on contact) or pepperspray.

[lumipharon]

Because the sleeping memester can use all of the above, while also cucking around with no slips.
But yes, it's not a problem at high pop, but at lower pop they can basically just dun the whole crew easymodo, since (before the recent pr) there was no visual feedback/sound/etc that they were projectile immune.

[lzimann]

There WAS feedback that they were projectile immune, but it was really easy not notice it.

[lumipharon]

having regular text in your text box that looks like all the other text in the text box is fucking useless notification when you're busy fighting for your life against some dude who by all visual feedback is being hit by the bullets, but simply isn't slowin downor taking damage.

I watched atleast FIVE people (including me and mehki) one by one try take this guy on and each and every one of us repeatedly tried to shoot him and only realised the mistake after we'd been dunked. And because of the damage test meme, we each died in 2 seconds and so werent able to let anyone else know what was up.

Honestly though, the fix PR should have fixed the main issues with this (haven't seen it in action since it got merged however).

[Malkevin]

Whats the feedback now?

Only took me a couple of engagements to know what the whoop-whoop noise was, is there something else on top?

[TheNightingale]

Scenario: A Sleeping Carp attacks a Security Officer. The Security Officer reaches for their taser and gets off a shot, but it's deflected. The Officer only has time to shout ":s HELP DORMS" before they're killed by unarmed attacks. The Sleeping Carp takes the Officer's taser and starts stripping them.

The AI tracks them, and sees a dead Security Officer, and someone standing over them with a taser; they report this to Security, including the name of the perp. Another Officer responds to the call for help. The second Officer, due to information from the AI, knows the perp has a taser, so throws a flashbang inside - but the flashbang fails, because the Sleeping Carp is wearing the dead Officer's helmet. The Officer charges in with their own taser, which is deflected by the Sleeping Carp, who stunbatons them and kills them.

By this point, nobody actually knows the Sleeping Carp is projectile-immune. The Sleeping Carp, disguised as a Security Officer, uses their unarmed stun attacks to stun and kill a passerby as the HoS arrives with another Officer (who is in full riot gear, with a shield). The Sleeping Carp easily dodges the flashbang and taser shots, and is completely unphased by the buckshot-loaded riot shotgun the HoS is packing.

They retaliate by stunning the Officer and dragging them away, hitting them along the way (and being immune to retaliation, because they have the same run-speed as the HoS and are immune to projectiles and flashbangs). Only now does the Officer manage to say ":s THEY'RE SLEEPING CARP" before they're sent into crit; the HoS draws their baton, and now has a 50/50 chance of winning the conflict. The Sleeping Carp manages to stun them first, however, and the HoS dies too. Finally, the AI manages to bolt the Sleeping Carp into a small, windowless room and sets Beepsky to Detain-mode.

Casualties: one Sleeping Carp, three Officers, the HoS, and a bystander. Now imagine what it'd be like if Security wasn't well-staffed. (Answer: they stun and kill anyone they can, which is a lot of people, since not everyone makes stunprods and lube bottles at the first sign of an antag.)

The biggest problem with Sleeping Carp is that, realistically, only melee weapons can hurt them; getting in range to use a spraybottle is too risky, flamethrowers and bombs are never used by non-antags, hyposprays are literally one item on the entire station (usually loaded with medicine - when does the CMO ever get in a fight?), and flashbangs/peppersprays/flashes are easily stopped by Security gear, which isn't hard to get when you can drop an Officer so easily.

Since only melee weapons can hurt them, you have to be right next to them to fight them - and so they can drag someone around, hitting them until they die, whilst nobody can stop them (you can't get close to someone who's running away from you, at the same speed, and already has a two-square head-start or so). And remember, they have invisible insta-stuns, so they can walk up to literally anyone, stun them, and go for the kill. (If someone pulls a stunbaton on you, you have a half-second to react before they click you; but if someone has Sleeping Carp, you can't tell, so there's no time to react.)

Remove the Sleeping Carp ability to stun someone with melee attacks, and make them vulnerable to projectiles when carrying anything - so they have to choose between going stunbaton/riot shield (for stun combat) and unarmed (for carp attacks and stun resistance). Bonus points for making lethals (e.g. lasers, shotguns) work on them anyway, so they trade 17TC for only ranged stun immunity and SC attacks.

[Zilenan91]

If it was only ranged stun immunity for 17 TCs the price would have to be reduced to around 14-15 because they'd just get pooped on by the Bartender or anyone with a shotgun.

[DemonFiren]

Scenario: A Sleeping Carp attacks a Security Officer. The Security Officer reaches for their taser and gets off a shot, but it's deflected.

The Officer then presses E, reaches for his baton (which was stored active in the always-open secbelt menu), or his flash, or a flashbang, or pepperspray, and beats the everloving shit out of the sleeping meme.
Note that flashbang and pepperspray are ranged stuns that still shit over sleeping carp.

[Incomptinence]

Forget the officer. Best solution is probably a flamethrower. Note lings resist damage and stuns. Note chaos parasite ling would literally be immune to firestacks.

Still opposed to lings getting this naturally. I still say remove tatorling.

[newfren]

Scenario: A Sleeping Carp attacks a Security Officer. The Security Officer reaches for their taser and gets off a shot, but it's deflected. The Officer only has time to shout ":s HELP DORMS" before they're killed by unarmed attacks. The Sleeping Carp takes the Officer's taser and starts stripping them.

The AI tracks them, and sees a dead Security Officer, and someone standing over them with a taser; they report this to Security, including the name of the perp. Another Officer responds to the call for help. The second Officer, due to information from the AI, knows the perp has a taser, so throws a flashbang inside - but the flashbang fails, because the Sleeping Carp is wearing the dead Officer's helmet. The Officer charges in with their own taser, which is deflected by the Sleeping Carp, who stunbatons them and kills them.

By this point, nobody actually knows the Sleeping Carp is projectile-immune.

Except, presumably, for the AI who has been tracking this person? And saw him shrug off a taser?

[Bluespace]

I have literally seen a sleeping carp scroll user die to the clown with a fire extinguisher.

[Oldman Robustin]

Because the sleeping memester can use all of the above, while also cucking around with no slips.
But yes, it's not a problem at high pop, but at lower pop they can basically just dun the whole crew easymodo, since (before the recent pr) there was no visual feedback/sound/etc that they were projectile immune.

But in melee v. melee combat using stun items, the sleeping memester has no advantage.

If you're better at melee combat than the memester, you will get the first hit and win. It's that simple. The carp scroll doesn't give any advantages to melee defense.

My biggest issue with the scroll is that it feels kind of metagamey to scream out about someone deflecting a disabler beam or wrist-wrenching an assistant. Screaming "OH MY GOD THE CLOWN KNOWS KARATE" on radio is funny, but there should be something added that makes it clear that the sleeping carp user is utilizing some kind of forbidden/syndicate-associated martial arts.

[Shaps-cloud]

Scenario: A Sleeping Carp attacks a Security Officer. The Security Officer reaches for their taser and gets off a shot, but it's deflected.

The Officer then presses E, reaches for his baton (which was stored active in the always-open secbelt menu), or his flash, or a flashbang, or pepperspray, and beats the everloving shit out of the sleeping meme.
Note that flashbang and pepperspray are ranged stuns that still shit over sleeping carp.

Holy shit an actual reason to keep pepper spray on hand

[DemonFiren]

It's an instant stun with a shorter range but deeper reserves than the taser, and with a lasting effect like the disabler.

Pepperspray is pretty fucking good, it reloads quickly, and if you get a beaker or two can be field-reloaded.

[Malkevin]

Scenario: A Sleeping Carp attacks a Security Officer. The Security Officer reaches for their taser and gets off a shot, but it's deflected.

The Officer then presses E, reaches for his baton (which was stored active in the always-open secbelt menu), or his flash, or a flashbang, or pepperspray, and beats the everloving shit out of the sleeping meme.
Note that flashbang and pepperspray are ranged stuns that still shit over sleeping carp.

Holy shit an actual reason to keep pepper spray on hand

If only pepperspray wasn't blocked by an internals mask and a paper hat.

Makes a good water squirter though; set it to 10, set yourself to walk, spray and watch the cunts fall down.

[CPTANT]

Scenario: A Sleeping Carp attacks a Security Officer. The Security Officer reaches for their taser and gets off a shot, but it's deflected.

The Officer then presses E, reaches for his baton (which was stored active in the always-open secbelt menu), or his flash, or a flashbang, or pepperspray, and beats the everloving shit out of the sleeping meme.
Note that flashbang and pepperspray are ranged stuns that still shit over sleeping carp.

Holy shit an actual reason to keep pepper spray on hand

If only pepperspray wasn't blocked by an internals mask and a paper hat.

Makes a good water squirter though; set it to 10, set yourself to walk, spray and watch the cunts fall down.

It was even more hilarious to fill it with acid, before that was nerfed to shit.

[Zilenan91]

You could probably ask the bartender to fill it with neurotoxin to shit on people if you want

[lumipharon]

But in melee v. melee combat using stun items, the sleeping memester has no advantage.

If you're better at melee combat than the memester, you will get the first hit and win. It's that simple. The carp scroll doesn't give any advantages to melee defense.

My biggest issue with the scroll is that it feels kind of metagamey to scream out about someone deflecting a disabler beam or wrist-wrenching an assistant. Screaming "OH MY GOD THE CLOWN KNOWS KARATE" on radio is funny, but there should be something added that makes it clear that the sleeping carp user is utilizing some kind of forbidden/syndicate-associated martial arts.

Yes but here's the problem oldman.

Unlike the dualsabre which has a fuck huge sprite saying 'please stun baton my face', a dude with sleeping meme may or may not also have a weapon, but they have ZERO visual indication that they canjust ignore all projectiles.
Thanks to the recent PR, you can figure this out AFTER you try and shoot them, but it still gives you a huge surprise advantage.

If a sec officer sees them charging at them screaming, the obvious first response is to taser them them, especially if the other guy is clearly holding a melee stun weapon or something.
That means the sec officer shoots the dude charging directly at him, has to see that the projectiles are failing to do anything, change hand and whip out a baton before the memester can get into melee range, just to be on an even footing.

From my experience so far, officer tries to tase memester, memester jsut charges in and stuns then kills them before the officer can react, let alone tell people over radio that they're being murdered by a projectile reflecting kung fu master.

It's more extreme than the old dermal armoured patch, which atleast was visible on examine, and it was obvious that any hos without a visible hat would probably have it.

[Zilenan91]

Just make sleeping carp put magical cursed kung-fu gloves on your hands that can't be removed so that people can see you're a carp.

[lzimann]

sleeping carp now gives you an undroppable carp suit for max immersions

[DemonFiren]

Just remove it from the "stealth" tab in the Uplink, then, update the description, and tell people never to use it.

[callanrockslol]

Still opposed to lings getting this naturally. I still say remove tatorling.

Traitorling is fine and fairly rare as it is, just remove their ability to use the scroll, same as how it is with holo.