DISABLE ASSISTANTS

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TheBibleMelts
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DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by TheBibleMelts » #729557

...until a certain population threshold is met on the server.

inspired by this thread: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=36188 - a common argument of why not to play a job with responsibility during lowpop is "why would i play this contributing job when there's 15 assistants looking for something/someone to fuck with?"

a solution to that could be..limiting when the round can have assistants.

lower-population hours on lrp tends to result in a ratio of assistant-to-jobbie that wind up with the entire station being tided by bored people that joined the round afraid of having any kind of responsibility, which results in lower quality shifts, which results in lower population, which loops us back to square one.

i'd like to experiment with requiring a station population/player ready count of 20-30+ before assistant is able to be roundstarted as, or latejoined as. the goal of this is to inspire a little more cohesiveness of shifts in lowpop rounds, and to drive a little more engagement out of people who otherwise join as assistant, get bored, and leave after having no 'team' to work with and no 'goal' to meet.

common point raised against this:
won't people will just join as engineer or paramedic to do their tiding instead?
while this is a valid concern, before vocalizing it, you should understand that people that would do this, are already doing it.
how will making someone pick a job slot force them to do that job?
it won't, and we do not force anybody to accomplish their departmental duties as-is. what would change is the ratio of people who will be joining a lower-pop round and having a team, and a home department. that alone is likely to inspire a large chunk of people that play this game in good-faith to contribute more to the shift than it would for that same player who joined as a grayshirt to goof around before getting bored and logging off.

the psychological effect of a player joining a job that they don't intend to participate heavily in suddenly hearing over the radio "hey i need an engineer over in X" and having a call to action to engage with the shift shouldn't be underestimated.

a short-staffed station full of lone wolves with no ties to anybody or anything just feels completely stagnant and empty. there is nobody to blame when something isn't done, there is nobody to ask to perform tasks, there is nobody to work alongside.

thanks for reading.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by WineAllWine » #729559

definitely worth a try imo
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Vekter » #729568

I really don't see why not. There are jobs (Engineer, Cargo, MD, Janitor) that can pretty easily just vibe during lowpop for a little bit between emergencies and I feel like I'd rather have those people on the hook for getting stuff done when need be and otherwise just hanging out working on whatever.

LRP also doesn't have the "stay in your lane" rules so it's not a big deal for them to do other shit if they need to, as long as they're around for when they're needed.
Off Topic
Because someone might bring it up, I have been vocal in the past about just wholesale replacing Assistant with a more new player centered role to try and get rid of the whole "this job is the one you take if you just want to grief" thing, so while I can see how someone might think I'm doing this just because I don't like the job, I do genuinely think it's a good idea.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Higgin » #729573

yep. wanna be a no-job ronin or take the day off? visit your head or the hop. otherwise, enjoy your extra access, gear, and the comms.


edit: i'd even go higher than 20-30 to like 40 or 50
feedback appreciated here <3
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Vekter » #729579

Higgin wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 10:59 pm edit: i'd even go higher than 20-30 to like 40 or 50
What's the threshold for Graveyard Shift access?
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by ItzRiumz » #729580

Very opposed to this. I don’t want people taking up job slots and then not doing their job because they wanted to be an assistant. People constantly think of assistant as THE tider role when many other people pick it to also hang around and chat with the crew or do cool little projects and gimmicks. Let people have the choice of responsibility, don’t force it on them.

Extra edit: This would also hurt bringing pop up because people wouldn’t play the game in the first place if there isn’t any assistant role to play for them.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by britgrenadier1 » #729581

It may be true that people are already paramed tiding, but I dont want to encourage more people to paramed tide and fight for a 2 slot job. I also worry that red blooded assistant mains may just not sign up at all and try to wait for their slot to open, which might make pop worse.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Higgin » #729582

Vekter wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 11:20 pm
Higgin wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 10:59 pm edit: i'd even go higher than 20-30 to like 40 or 50
What's the threshold for Graveyard Shift access?
MINIMAL_ACCESS_THRESHOLD 23
feedback appreciated here <3
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Vekter » #729584

ItzRiumz wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 11:26 pm Very opposed to this. I don’t want people taking up job slots and then not doing their job because they wanted to be an assistant. People constantly think of assistant as THE tider role when many other people pick it to also hang around and chat with the crew or do cool little projects and gimmicks. Let people have the choice of responsibility, don’t force it on them.
You're still able to do these things, you just need to do the bare minimum your job requires of you first. So for engineering, that would be starting the engine (which takes 5-10 minutes).
ItzRiumz wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 11:26 pm Extra edit: This would also hurt bringing pop up because people wouldn’t play the game in the first place if there isn’t any assistant role to play for them.
I know some people actively play assistant because they like not having responsibility, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to take up a little responsibility to the station before going off to do their own thing.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by PKPenguin321 » #729587

TheBibleMelts wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 10:17 pmcommon point raised against this:
won't people will just join as engineer or paramedic to do their tiding instead?
while this is a valid concern, before vocalizing it, you should understand that people that would do this, are already doing it.
...and now those that currently dont will have no choice but to do it too
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by GPeckman » #729589

My biggest concern is that people will take the job slots but still play like assistants. Well, that and it might kill pop even more. That said, I do think this is worth a shot.
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dendydoom
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by dendydoom » #729593

hello,

i have had to sweep contentless posts in this thread already and i would like to get ahead of it.

US lrp is not in a good spot. we can either sit on our hands and leave it as it is, or we can try to address some of what we believe to be the issues that are driving people away to places like manuel or other communities.

a chunk of sybilites moved to manuel, and many more followed them. why did they stay? the anecdotal experiences i got from the people i talked to were that, firstly, they didn't have to play so defensively against what felt like bad faith play, and secondly, the station was more of a coherent and functioning environment where people actually had jobs and tasks to perform.

what would be very helpful is to hear from sybil players how they feel about these things. whether they consider them issues or whether they consider them a good part of the lrp experience. if you're a sybil refugee currently on manuel, would these sorts of changes make you consider coming back, knowing that you still have the freedom of no mrp rules around staying in your lane, dealing with antags proportionately, antag restrictions, etc? or would you stay on manuel?

if you're a sybil player who loves lrp and posts in its defence every time someone tries to give it some love and care, why aren't you playing on the server? would this change push you away even more? perhaps make you give it a try?

these discussions are invaluable to us when we review and try to make the servers a better place to play. i'm not a sybil player, but when i took this role, i accepted that i would represent and try to improve and maintain the entire community. i like lrp, and i would like to see it make a return to form.

so please, keep a lid on the pointless arguing. i would sincerely like to hear your experiences, because that is a huge part of how i make my decisions.

thank you.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by iwishforducks » #729595

dendydoom wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:02 am snip
i believe you mistook this thread for the "turn bagil into mrp" thread?

regardless, please restore my post and the replies; my post was from a design standpoint. i dont see this as anything other than fighting players for niche purposes. i do not think this is a healthy solution, even if it theoretically might make some folks happy. it only drives more of a wedge. if we're looking for ways to get more players in lowpop count then we shouldn't be fighting players on what roles they want to play.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by dendydoom » #729596

iwishforducks wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:16 am
dendydoom wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:02 am snip
i believe you mistook this thread for the "turn bagil into mrp" thread?

regardless, please restore my post and the replies; my post was from a design standpoint. i dont see this as anything other than fighting players for niche purposes. i do not think this is a healthy solution, even if it theoretically might make some folks happy. it only drives more of a wedge. if we're looking for ways to get more players in lowpop count then we shouldn't be fighting players on what roles they want to play.
this proposal will affect sybil much more than the other servers, and in its initial discussions internally, was to address the root causes of a population decline in sybil and a population increase in manuel.

your post held no content. you need to elaborate on why you don't like this idea, not that you just don't like the idea. or you need to take it to the player's club. the post you made just now is much better, hence why it's staying. thank you for your contribution to the discussion.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Longestarmlonglaw » #729597

Im all for test-trialing this, see how it turns out. Its not like all the headmins and mso are suddenly going to have a stroke and die after doing this leaving this trial permanently enabled.

Im a sybil player, and i want to see how quickly the station will adapt/ fall apart.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #729604

Frankly, I've been saying to just disable assistant outright this entire time, but this works too. As a native Sybilian it'd be a welcome change.
Last edited by Imitates-The-Lizards on Thu May 30, 2024 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by kieth4 » #729606

Absolutely against this, I do not believe the game's woes come from assistant players. I do not believe thst forcing people into jobs will suddenly increase quality.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by zxaber » #729610

It'd be neat if we could somehow not affect interns, since new players generally aren't the problem this is looking to solve. But I'd rather see this change tried out either way, and there are newbie-friendly roles like Jani and Cargo Tech.

The main issue I see is that assistants clump together and form a pack mentality. Even if people use their jobs to tide, the hope would be that the pack mentality falls apart when it's an engineer watching a bartender be arrested.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #729622

If you want to avoid the "theres a zillion assistants and nobody wants to deal with that", isnt there a config setting which controls the ratio of "open assistant slots" vs "sec officers in round" or something?
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Vekter » #729639

zxaber wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 7:45 am It'd be neat if we could somehow not affect interns, since new players generally aren't the problem this is looking to solve. But I'd rather see this change tried out either way, and there are newbie-friendly roles like Jani and Cargo Tech.

The main issue I see is that assistants clump together and form a pack mentality. Even if people use their jobs to tide, the hope would be that the pack mentality falls apart when it's an engineer watching a bartender be arrested.
I've been saying for a while that we should trial the idea of making Assistant inverse time locked, where if you've played over (x) hours you can no longer choose it.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by xzero314 » #729644

Mixed feelings on this. I moved off Sybil to Manuel for exactly the reasons described. I wouldn't describe myself as a big assistant fan at all. My hours as an assistant make up 0.01 of my total hours. That said I have seen lots of examples of good faith assistant play. I have seen people have a lot of fun with the role without being at others expense. Creating memorable moments for quite a few people. I think this is a good idea to test, but I also think we should take into consideration that there are good faith assistants somewhere way way out there in the grey sea.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Cheshify » #729648

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 6:40 am Frankly, I've been saying to just disable assistant outright this entire time, but this works too. As a native Sybilian it'd be a welcome change.
Out of curiosity, what kind of play was making you believe they should be removed? Is this possibly a rules issue / enforcement issue and not a job one?
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Vekter » #729653

Cheshify wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 2:06 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 6:40 am Frankly, I've been saying to just disable assistant outright this entire time, but this works too. As a native Sybilian it'd be a welcome change.
Out of curiosity, what kind of play was making you believe they should be removed? Is this possibly a rules issue / enforcement issue and not a job one?
I'm not Imitates but my insight on it is this: Assistant has an image issue in that it's typically considered the "griefing is kind of allowed" job outside of Clown. People tend to pick it because they don't want to be tied down to any responsibility and want to just fuck around all shift. I don't necessarily hate that, but it breeds that kind of boredom that revolves back around to "That security officer is arresting this random person I don't know. I should interfere, as I have nothing better to do".

Replacing assistant with something that's directly tied into learning how to play (like job interns) would help with that, in theory.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #729654

Cheshify wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 2:06 pm
Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 6:40 am Frankly, I've been saying to just disable assistant outright this entire time, but this works too. As a native Sybilian it'd be a welcome change.
Out of curiosity, what kind of play was making you believe they should be removed? Is this possibly a rules issue / enforcement issue and not a job one?
I don't think anything positive comes from the Assistant job at all, unless it's being used in it's presumed capacity as the overflow job, or it's an ACTUAL new player.

For every one assistant who does something positive like setting up shop in the commissary, or working a construction project, or spending their shift as a musician, in my own personal subjective experience, there are at LEAST another twenty who spend the shift graytiding, harassing security, validhunting, brawling, or just flat out going SSD once they realize they don't have any task in particular to perform. Due to the very nature of their job, they end up locked out of most positive and contributory game content (or at least the content that has enough replay value to be worth doing more than once or twice like atmos or xenobio or whatever), and so can only fill their time by being menaces.

In my again personal subjective experience, where they fall afoul of the rules side is still their well-known and frequently re-occurring interruption of arrests, ESPECIALLY on LRP. So, I would say it's both things you asked about, but the "graytide culture" oft referenced in this thread is the only natural result for this job with no responsibilities - it could not have turned out any other way, because the conditions of the job would have always only led to this one conclusion of assistants being nothing but shit-heads because they can only ever be negative in the first place, because the few positive things they can do have little replay value.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Higgin » #729661

the very first greytide round when a bug made everyone assistants turned into an orgy of violence and a spontaneous rush on the brig for basically no inround reason except for the absence of anyone else

the history of the role has included rushes on the spare being such a key part of roundstart that people, often assistant mains, would try to speedrun it roundstart - so it got put in a safe and behind an advertised, delayed calldown

there are times it's valid to tide arrests or depts., but a lot of the time it's antisocial behavior towards the people in those depts. (edit: or just self-antagging) that would not cause the pain it does if more people had access to them by virtue of actually having a job, and for which people often tide for their own purposes separate from any expectations or ready place to slot themselves into the action of a round

even just fictionally, it makes no fucking sense to have a layabout reserve army of greys that has maints and no expectations on the space station. fully-staffed depts. are better and increase the permeability of the station's depts. for everyone - there are more people to move around and open doors, do shit for each other, and use dept. mechanics without friction.

even if those people want to go off and do something else - even not do the jobs at all - it's also helpful to have more people who might actually fill the roles if you, as let's say a paramedic, decide to go build a maints bar with friends, write a book, or get into trouble.

and if you do that and decide you wanna jump back in - being an actual job role instead of assistant gives you an easy place to slot back into and the opportunities to know when you might be needed.

to kieth's point:
Absolutely against this, I do not believe the game's woes come from assistant players. I do not believe thst forcing people into jobs will suddenly increase quality.
the "game's woes" can be connected back to much deeper things imo - namely the limits we bump up against with our format (short, resetting rounds) and antag dynamics.

it's not necessarily a problem of the players themselves, either, but assistant as a role does not encourage players or give them a ready opportunity, or even the slightest expectation, to do much more than behave in ways that make these limits squeeze a lot more.

everybody on the station should be responsible for something or at least have the opportunity to be. if you don't want to even entertain that, and to be responsible to your dept. by saying you're not going to, the easy in-round solution is to ask the head or HoP to demote you and send you on your way. on your way to the line, you might just hear about somebody who needs help learning the dept., or run into a problem you can solve, or get antag and now have a much better toolbox (heh) of specific stuff to do with your access/mechanics.

honestly, getting rid of assistant overall would be a better starting point for play, but a poplock might achieve that effect for lowpop (and be salutory on both LRP and MRP imo)
feedback appreciated here <3
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by dragomagol » #729668

kieth4 wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 7:37 am Absolutely against this, I do not believe the game's woes come from assistant players. I do not believe thst forcing people into jobs will suddenly increase quality.
I'm similarly not about this. Forcing someone into a role will just mean they won't join and the pop will shrink further. I don't think having assistants as a selectable role is contributing to any kind of problem we have now.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by MrStonedOne » #729677

whats up with the thread link?
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by TheBibleMelts » #729679

MrStonedOne wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 5:41 pm whats up with the thread link?
how did it take this long for someone to notice

oh wait, people don't read OPs in policy threads.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by dendydoom » #729680

i noticed but i thought you were making some kind of joke and it's lame to explain the joke

also pleaSE KEEP ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Timonk » #729895

dendydoom wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:02 am hello,

i have had to sweep contentless posts in this thread already and i would like to get ahead of it.

US lrp is not in a good spot. we can either sit on our hands and leave it as it is, or we can try to address some of what we believe to be the issues that are driving people away to places like manuel or other communities.

a chunk of sybilites moved to manuel, and many more followed them. why did they stay? the anecdotal experiences i got from the people i talked to were that, firstly, they didn't have to play so defensively against what felt like bad faith play, and secondly, the station was more of a coherent and functioning environment where people actually had jobs and tasks to perform.

what would be very helpful is to hear from sybil players how they feel about these things. whether they consider them issues or whether they consider them a good part of the lrp experience. if you're a sybil refugee currently on manuel, would these sorts of changes make you consider coming back, knowing that you still have the freedom of no mrp rules around staying in your lane, dealing with antags proportionately, antag restrictions, etc? or would you stay on manuel?

if you're a sybil player who loves lrp and posts in its defence every time someone tries to give it some love and care, why aren't you playing on the server? would this change push you away even more? perhaps make you give it a try?

these discussions are invaluable to us when we review and try to make the servers a better place to play. i'm not a sybil player, but when i took this role, i accepted that i would represent and try to improve and maintain the entire community. i like lrp, and i would like to see it make a return to form.

so please, keep a lid on the pointless arguing. i would sincerely like to hear your experiences, because that is a huge part of how i make my decisions.

thank you.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Vekter » #729897

Timonk wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 2:01 am
dendydoom wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:02 am hello,

i have had to sweep contentless posts in this thread already and i would like to get ahead of it.

US lrp is not in a good spot. we can either sit on our hands and leave it as it is, or we can try to address some of what we believe to be the issues that are driving people away to places like manuel or other communities.

a chunk of sybilites moved to manuel, and many more followed them. why did they stay? the anecdotal experiences i got from the people i talked to were that, firstly, they didn't have to play so defensively against what felt like bad faith play, and secondly, the station was more of a coherent and functioning environment where people actually had jobs and tasks to perform.

what would be very helpful is to hear from sybil players how they feel about these things. whether they consider them issues or whether they consider them a good part of the lrp experience. if you're a sybil refugee currently on manuel, would these sorts of changes make you consider coming back, knowing that you still have the freedom of no mrp rules around staying in your lane, dealing with antags proportionately, antag restrictions, etc? or would you stay on manuel?

if you're a sybil player who loves lrp and posts in its defence every time someone tries to give it some love and care, why aren't you playing on the server? would this change push you away even more? perhaps make you give it a try?

these discussions are invaluable to us when we review and try to make the servers a better place to play. i'm not a sybil player, but when i took this role, i accepted that i would represent and try to improve and maintain the entire community. i like lrp, and i would like to see it make a return to form.

so please, keep a lid on the pointless arguing. i would sincerely like to hear your experiences, because that is a huge part of how i make my decisions.

thank you.
This post made it's way to digg
It's from a guy who is constantly rallying against TG
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by dendydoom » #729901

Timonk wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 2:01 am This post made it's way to digg
It's from a guy who is constantly rallying against TG
thanks for letting me know but i absolutely 100% do not give a shit about digg

please stay on topic :)
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Shadowflame909 » #730198

dendydoom wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 3:02 am hello,

if you're a sybil player who loves lrp and posts in its defence every time someone tries to give it some love and care, why aren't you playing on the server? would this change push you away even more? perhaps make you give it a try?
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by TheFinalPotato » #730199

not a config change I don't think
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by warbluke » #730241

On Bagil people who roll assistant are often the ones who keep the lights on and the crew alive.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by MooCow12 » #730243

Assistants may not have responsibilities but they also have no specific locations they are attached to, atleast until later, ya a geneticist might try setting up sm if power fails and they cant do their job anymore but productive tiding where you are already going to bust into places that have useful gear and then do high impact responsibilities is a standard among alot of long term players like me.

Push the culture of productive tiding if anything, maybe even put it in space law as a mitigator for breaking & entering & theft

Having like 2 lines of text in space law and on wiki can do numbers for server culture
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by Higgin » #730259

Prosocial tiding is absolutely a thing, but everyone can do it - it need not necessarily be assistants.

I wager part of the observation of assistants keeping the lights on is exactly due to there being nobody else in those roles to begin with. This proposal would try to address that by foreclosing people from the role where they might not be expected to do things by other players - even if they don't.

Thinking about this a bit has moderated my position. Antisocial tiding and people taking the assistant role to asshat around in ways that worsen the experience for others* are their own problems; people wanting low-responsibility flexible roles to play is not a problem.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by bastardblaster » #730320

if all the jobs besides assistant that i'm interested in are maxed out because of increased demand for those jobs by displaced assistant players then i'm just not going to play. i imagine that that's the stance that a lot of other players are going to have as well.
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Re: DISABLE ASSISTANTS

Post by TheSmallBlue » #730401

I like this idea, I'd like to see it tested somewhere
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