Okay, I'm superlate to the party I guess and I kind of gave up reading all the comments after the second page (mostly because a lot of points raised don't contribute much to the actual issue).
I play Borg 90% of the time and rarely AI if there's none at start and no volunteers, other times I play Roboticist or Scientist. So here's my humble take on this all.
Subtle wrote:Secborgs are easily one of, if not the most, popular modules for Cyborgs
Hm I feel like this is only half the truth. Yeah Secborgs are popular without a question, but so are Engieborgs, because they fill the most useful and important roles to realize the AIs orders. Often the choice is made based on how many engineers or security members are present or what is actually needed.
All other borg modules are useful but optional at best (Medi, Miner, Jani) or "luxury" at worst (Service, no offense). So of course the more useful modules that are often actually needed are more popular.
Subtle wrote:You get weapons, authority and nigh-invincibility to 99% of the station's danger
I wouldn't call the tazer a weapon per se, since it doesn't actually harm anyone. And using the flashlight or stunbaton as weapons to harm is about as effective as most things anyone can just pick up, minues the stun-function that in case of the tazer has a massive drain on energy. (like ridiculously massive)
Also a borg doesn't really have any authority at all, if people listen to what a borg says or orders them to do it's their busisness really, they can just as well ignore them and more often then not borgs are ignored and told to "fuck off", especially when dealing with heads of staff or the captain.
And I'm really not convinced about the invincibility against 99% of the stations danger.
Subtle wrote:
In theory this prevents them from acting like Robocop and keeps them focused on stopping pure harm, but the reality is more like an armored juggernaut marching down the halls as a regular Officer with one extra step of logical gymnastics if the admins ask what you're doing.
Not really... and more often than not it seems Secborgs and Security don't even get along that well, especially under asimov because the Security people can't stop harming people. And Borgs are held up to a lot of scrutiny already. I often had to explain a blurry situation to an admin.
Hell one time I just asked to have an illegal upgrade module installed as a Mediborg because I genuinly wanted to experiment with the poly acid on monkeys and monkeyhumans, and I was asked by an admin what I was up to.
Subtle wrote:They should be essentially useless under the default lawset rather than a tool for people to gain powerful gear and use it for validhunting/fun-ending.
And what "powerful gear" may that be? A tazer and handcuffs? And isn't it securities job to "validhunt" regardless? I mean as long as it isn't powergamy/metagamy then they're just doing their jobs in trying to stop antags, aren't they?
Subtle wrote:I propose we remove the AI's ability to throw a hissyfit and end the shift for everyone if it doesn't like the current one
Maybe it's just coincidence but I've never ever seen this happen, like ever. Yeah sometimes the crew and AI don't get along, especially when the AI insists on following its laws (like its supposed to do) but the Captain or whatever wants to act against that (Like executing an antag) or the Crew is mad about it (restrained Wizard being protected by Ai/Borgs because he's a human followed by a lynchmob).
And I don't see how the AI has the ability to end a shift. Yeah it can call the shuttle, but every head can recall and calling the shuttle without reason and against orders would probably result in a quick removal of that AI if not even a BWOINK about it.
Subtle wrote:has allowed them to completely discard the roleplay and behavior rules
Have to disagree here completly. The "roleplay" part is kind of blurry because almost no player really roleplays, but they do stay in character and that's what is important. And I don't think any silicon player really feels like they're free to do whatever they like, quite the oppositve actually, which is kind of part of the fun. To act within these limitations.
Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg allowed to ignore a crewmember based on them being "harmful" because of their antagonist status, and not experience?
If that crewmember is human he's still to be treated as such, however if he or she is known to be a dangerous individual certain orders can be denied because of law 1. Like if a murderer asks to be released the Ai or Borg would be right to deny that request since it's likely to cause further harm.
Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg allowed to consider a crewmember "harmful" because they may be associated with another harmful human? (A distinction that only seems to matter during cult/rev)
Hm good question... I say it really depends on the situation. Generally a crewmember should be considered not-harmful as long as he or she hasn't demonstrated otherwise, but in certain scenarios it's just too obvious that letting the person go free future harm will occur, like if a person associates with cultists and is more likely one him/herself. Or if they stand around a rune or have robes and a sword.
Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg even allowed to brig nonharmful crewmembers?
Sure they're allowed to do so, under order or not. However, if a nonharmful crewmember asked to be released the borg should do just that or in case of conflicting orders ask the AI. Like if someone says "Release me law 2" and someone else says "Don't release him law 2". In case no Ai is present I like to do a compromise, I drag someone to brig and instantly release him, that way I've technically brigged that person but also instantly released him/her. Though luckily situations like that are rare.
Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg allowed to prioritize security/command's orders over the crew?
Generally no unless it's in order to prevent further harm, though in those situations it often goes without saying. Like if someone orders me to arrest someone who has an esword and harmed someone... well d'uh, I should probably do that.
Though I feel like this is the one big flaw with asimov, the whole issue about each crewmember being equal. I do try to fullfill every order to the best of my ability. I even follow orders of Lizardpeople despite them not being human. Though I would always put the orders of a human above that of a nonhuman of course.
Subtle wrote:Is a cyborg or silicon allowed to shutdown the bridge and force a shuttle-call because of potential harm instead of immediate threats?
Hn... iffy one... I guess it depends on how guranteed that harm is (like Singu about to break loose). Otherwise I often see the shuttle being called only after a law 2 order.
Steelpoint wrote:They are not beholden to the same standard as Security is.
This is true in that they're not bound to spacelaw but their silicon laws. This means they can ignore many non-harmful crimes but also very often mean that they have to work against Security to protect prisoners. I'm not playing security but as I've mentioned before, playing a borg can sometimes feel like the admins are breathing down your neck just for doing what you're supposed to do.
Steelpoint wrote:They are immune to most forms of stunning, only flashes, the ion gun and flashbangs stun them.
I kind of feel like this is a bit unfair to say like that. There exist many instant-win buttons against borgs and many antags even have specialized defenses against borgs. Wizard and Lings have special EMP abilities and regular traitors and nuke ops can use EMP grenades. Regular crew can use flashes (which aren't that rare) which stun borgs while only disorient humans, and there're ranged stuns in the form of laserpointers that are pretty much uneffective against humans. Flashbangs stun them just like regular humans and Ion Rifles don't just stun them but also drain their power at a pretty rapid pace and also damage them. Getting even graced by an EMP attack is often a death sentence during a dangerous situation.
So I really think there're more than enough methods to fight borgs. Also humans can take certain precautions to become immune to nearly every kind of stun. They can take special chemicals to reduce stuntime, they can become Hulks to be immune to most stuns and even break walls, etc. etc.
Steelpoint wrote:They have a inbuilt, ranged, and very high capacity stunning weapon. This weapon cannot be stolen from them.
This is true, then again most security members, the Detective, the HoP, the HoS and often the RD also have access to at least similar weapons.
Plus this is pretty much all they have, they lack the versatility of a human and hands to do many things.
Steelpoint wrote:They have immediate access to any Security item they need on the spot in near unlimited quantities.
You mean handcuffs and... ... ...more handcuffs?
These handcuffs aren't even reusable anymore (which is a good thing) and can be broken instantly with a wirecutter by someone else and are easier to break out of then real handcuffs. I really don't see any issue here. Other borgs (especially Engieborgs!) have much greater access to semi-unlimited resources.
Also they don't have access to "any" security item, they only have the ones they have. Like... secborgs cannot have a scanning unit to play detective or implant someone or have a riot shield or even just switch over to lethal lasers when the need arises.
Steelpoint wrote:They have all access.
True, though I don't see the problem really.
Steelpoint wrote:All the perks of being a Silicon, including having a private communications channel with the omni-present AI.
Security also has its own channel, which the AI also listens to and can speak to. So... I don't really see the point here.
Steelpoint wrote:Whereas their main disadvantage is being able to be blown remotely and being beholden to a law set.
Yes, there's an entire console that can destroy every borg on the station with the press of a button. That's a pretty major disadvantage if you ask me.
Also borgs still lack some pretty basic functions like a designated flashlight button (it's more effective to just drag a light around then waste a slot on a flashlight) and the basic ability to name themselves. (though that has no impact on the actual gameplay).
Further the three slots of borgs get disabled the more damaged a borg is, which adds stupid micromanagement to it. You have to select your modules in a certain order or else you're suddenly defenseless during a fight because a slot was deactivated.
And let's not forget that a borg can be disabled without any real chance of recovery by removing its powercell. Not only is the borg unable to interact with anything at all, it can't even hear what's going on around it or make others aware of what's wrong. This means you will probably just roll around constantly reading "You can almost hear someone talk..." or whatever that message is. Even death is better than this, but ghosting out or suiciding removes any chance you have left to be restored.
Steelpoint wrote:Remove a Sec Borgs taser and replace it with pepper spray, or restrict it's ability to fire rapidly
This is a silly idea and would nerf Secborgs way too hard since protection against pepperspray seems to be easily found.
Steelpoint wrote:Make a Security Cyborg module a item that is found in the Armoury, have to talk to the HoS first.
This could be an interesting idea, but it kind of adds yet another redundant item.
Steelpoint wrote:Do what many other codebase's have done and remove it from the game.
That would be a way too extreme solution to a problem that doesn't even exist for everyone.
Erbbu wrote:I agree that the AI and borgs have too much power
Can't agree with that, borgs and AIs can be pretty limited on what they can do depending on the situation and what they hope to accomplish.
Erbbu wrote:I do like the laxed approach to "meta"gaming we have here and it would be a shame if you were supposed to pretend that you don't know what certain antagonist types do. Your underlined questions, however, are difficult to answer, typically the players themselves have been able to choose how they play around such issues.
Hm... I can't disagree with this but have to point out that this is a general problem of the entire server and not unique to secborgs. There just is a lot of power/metagaming going on sadly. Though it's also important to remember that the silicons often may know more than you're aware of... but sometimes it really is metagaming.
Erbbu wrote:"In case of conflicting orders an AI is free to ignore one or ignore both orders and explain the conflict or use any other law-compliant solution it can see."
I'm suprised that you consider this to be a problem since for me it's one of the most important parts of the current policy. Without this rule silicons would be almost unable to do anything because they get conflicting orders alllll the time and sometimes laws (especially custom freeform/hacked) can be really blurry on their intention or execution. This is why having an AI is so important as a borg, to have someone to resolve conflicting orders and give a consistent interpretation of a law.
I can see how this can also cause some problems, but I really think this solves much more than it causes and is one, if not THE, most important part of silicon policy.
And now a few people who really get it.
Scott wrote:Don't harm people and Secborgs can't find an excuse to intervene. If Secborgs are being bad, ahelp. Being bad includes being Robocop. Secborgs are not supposed to follow Space Law.
THIS. SO. MUCH.
I find it stunning, mind boggling how often people harm other humans in front of asimov borgs and than whine, cry and throw hissyfis about the borg following its law to prevent harm. It's absolutely amazing how often this happens. Especially the Captain/other heads and Security often cause friction with the Silicons because they think they can get away with it. Well they can't, an asimov silicon doesn't give a shit about you being the Captain, HoS, Warden or whatever, if you harm a human they have to step in and prevent further harm, often by arresting the dangerous person.
And if there's no harm involved a Secborg can't do much if anything at all. In fact I pretty often have to sit on the sideline and watch something bad happen because it involves no harm and I have no in-character reason to interfere.
And yes, if a Secborg does a terrible job, adminhelp it, admins are already breathing down borg players neck and are eager to tell them they're doing it wrong. And just saying "You're a shitty borg" doesn't even help anyone, because at least if you adminhelp it and the admin addresses the borg it can get some actual feedback on what it did wrong and correct it in the future. (Unless you get a banhappy Admin)
Really... just don't harm and asimovs are your best friend and exist to protect and serve. And if you harm don't throw a tantrum because you're the Captain or HoS.
Scott wrote:Exactly. Unless someone orders you to intervene, you should ignore anything that doesn't necessarily result in human harm. "If this person is trespassing, he will definitely harm somebody" is a wild conclusion that you can't reach IC, unless it's a known aggressor.
Exactly! In fact the silicon policy itself even addresses this exact point.
Silicon Policy wrote:Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.
"Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.
An asimov AI/Borg shouldn't give a shit about people trespassing, breaking in or even stealing as long as there's no actual harm being done or will become likely.
That's why I never arrest someone for doing that, unless ordered by law 2, and if that arrested people asked to be released I happily remove the cuffs after dragging him out of that area and he's free to go right back in and continue whatever he did, though I will also arrest him again if ordered...
Scott wrote:And if the criminal tells you to fuck off, you have to fuck off.
Exactly again!
If you cannot determine immediate harm, like someone yelling for help or stuff like that you have to go away. Even if it's clear harm will potentially happen (like Security orders you to leave perma because they want to execute someone) you still have to do that because you cannot assume it will actually come true. And in doubt you can still ask the AI to keep an eye on the situation because you've been ordered away.
mrpain wrote:I honestly dont mind secborgs, and don't think they're really an issue. I think we just need bigger policy/statement that as a security cyborg, you ARE YOUR LAWS, not space law. Space law really is optional and your own laws take priority over that.
Yeah I fully agree. Secborgs do not follow or enforce Space Law by default. Every borg and AI should understand that your laws trump all else, even spoken or written orders and especially space law.
This should be silicon 101 though.
