We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

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We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:31 am #548083

Specifically the n-word.

I personally don’t give a flying fuck if you say it, enjoy saying, or believe that saying it is okay. I’m obviously not a fan, but that's not why I'm proposing this change.

It should be banned because it offers little value to the roleplaying experience here. Running around screaming the n-word is not a remotely realistic gimmick under our current rules (which disallow playing characters that are insane (see item 1 in link)). The l-word variation used to refer to lizards is similarly incredibly dull and as unimaginative as ‘shitcurity’. Racist characters should be allowed, but only if they can do so in a creative way that isn’t acting like a child who just learned a new naughty word.

Additionally, discussion surrounding the n-word pop up with alarming frequency, go nowhere, and make everyone mad. Concurrently, it is impossible to reach a conclusive answer on what is and is not allowed. Even if that were the case, that line would continually be challenged by those members of the community who enjoy toeing the line.

I propose that the n-word, and usage thereof, be considered a violation of Rule 3, with a similar punishment structure (1 warning, increasingly long bans for repeated offenses).

Given that this is a contentious topic, I would like to request that discussion in this thread remain civil.



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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:44 am #548086

Nah

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby NecromancerAnne » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:49 am #548088

I'll repeat what I have said previously on this topic. My personal opinion is that I would rather not see slurs spewed constantly in the game because it's really detracting from the in-game experience and feels like it holds us back from keeping the server at a higher standard of roleplay than the bare minimum we have and the absolute pit that Hippie calls it's benchmark. But I'm not so adamantly against it to request a ban. I would see it as an improvement but unnecessary in the grand scheme of things and likely just cause more drama than it's worth. The peope who do it to such an excessive degree can already be told to knock it off. Most people do not do it to an excessive degree.

What is excessive? It's left to admin discretion. Does that seem unfair? You can avoid it by not making every single sentence you say include the word 'nigger' in it. Some people actually do this in-game and are surprised when we tell them to fuck off. We are not encroaching upon your freedom of speech we are kindly reminding you that you are in a social game and you are still beholden to the usual standards of decorum (but more relaxed given we are permissive at all). If that isn't the standard that fits you, that's really unfortunate but it changes nothing and that is very much a you problem for lacking the social graces necessary not to constantly use slurs in casual speech to such an absurd degree that someone has to pull you aside and tell you to stop.

Now, anyone who pulls a stunt like changing every rooms name to slurs or some such shit where it is constantly in your face should be fair game for whatever comes their way, including administrative action. Those people only do it for a reaction. Maybe it's not the reaction they were expecting, but they forfeited their right to complain at that point. This should go double for using it to bait people into attacking them because of it, which people actually do and those guys are really cancerous. We generally already have rules to cover it already, mostly rule 1, and it's how we handle those situations.

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:59 am #548090

banning it would give it even more power and we dont negotiate with terrorists
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby BeeSting12 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:12 am #548092

People who spam it should be given bans for spam. Other than that, it's just a word. Saying niggerniggerniggerniggerniggernigger should not be okay simply because it is spam in the same way spamming blahblahblahblahblahblahblah is spam.

I don't think we should be making rules just because discussion about said rule gets heated. If the discussion gets heated and makes everyone mad then tell them to move it to the appropriate area and keep it civil there. I play a somewhat racist character (against other species since I'd imagine we'd have moved on from human on human racism by 255x) and I don't spam the n-word, but I have used it before, and I think people who want to should be allowed to.

Also what slurs would this ban include? I'd say there are equally offensive slurs out there. Are we banning all of them or just the n-word?

edit- I also think it would be cool if our admins banned in accordance with the rules instead of what they'd like the rules to be. Obviously, a lot of admin decisions can fall within a large spectrum and still be within the rules, but in relation to this rule specifically I see a bans that are not at all within the rules more frequently than in other areas.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby ATHATH » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:18 am #548095

BeeSting12 wrote:People who spam it should be given bans for spam. Other than that, it's just a word. Saying niggerniggerniggerniggerniggernigger should not be okay simply because it is spam in the same way spamming blahblahblahblahblahblahblah is spam.

I don't think we should be making rules just because discussion about said rule gets heated. If the discussion gets heated and makes everyone mad then tell them to move it to the appropriate area and keep it civil there. I play a somewhat racist character (against other species since I'd imagine we'd have moved on from human on human racism by 255x) and I don't spam the n-word, but I have used it before, and I think people who want to should be allowed to.

Also what slurs would this ban include? I'd say there are equally offensive slurs out there. Are we banning all of them or just the n-word?

I pretty much agree with what BeeSting12 is saying here.

Idea: What if we treated the n-word like WGW? You'd be allowed to say it every once in a while, but doing so would make you valid and people who spam it would be treated the same way as people who spam WGW.

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Qbopper » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:54 am #548102

PKPenguin321 wrote:banning it would give it even more power and we dont negotiate with terrorists


cute sentiment but the response to it every time it's said does that anyways so just bite the fucking bullet and kick people who can't contain themselves
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:37 am #548120

Qbopper wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:banning it would give it even more power and we dont negotiate with terrorists


cute sentiment but the response to it every time it's said does that anyways

No? Maybe your response
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby deedubya » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:46 am #548129

Considering a non-insignificant portion of admins not only want to ban them and some are already enforcing the rule against prior precedent? Sure. Ban slurs across the board. If that's how you want the community to be run, then just do it already.

there definitely won't be a huge community backlash and exodus like there was on bee, and I definitely don't have any ulterior motives for wanting tg to self-destruct or anything
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Flatulent » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:20 am #548132

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
It should be banned because it offers little value to the roleplaying experience here. Running around screaming the n-word is not a remotely realistic gimmick under our current rules

Racist characters should be allowed, but only if they can do so in a creative way that isn’t acting like a child who just learned a new naughty word.

Additionally, discussion surrounding the n-word pop up with alarming frequency, go nowhere, and make everyone mad. Concurrently, it is impossible to reach a conclusive answer on what is and is not allowed. Even if that were the case, that line would continually be challenged by those members of the community who enjoy toeing the line.


lol, roleplaying experience. you just want to ban the nigger word, otherwise you’d remember that all except one server are LRP and what you are saying doesn’t matter there.

oh shit I’m sorry that my racist character isn’t being creative enough for your tastes. We don’t have rules that regulate quality of role play, even on MRP servers. As for people who keep saying nigger repeatedly like children who learned a new naughty word, I’d not know, I am not American and I don’t give a shit about how it looks to American admins. Why the fuck would I learn about American racist behavior to roleplay a racist?

As for discussion going nowhere, perhaps it is you who should keep trying to ban slurs day after day without fucking end. Everyone but a small and vocal minority are entirely content with status quo evidently.
Last edited by Flatulent on Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Domitius » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:24 am #548133

It feels wrong to ban one word, heck even a list of words.

While I do think it's use is detrimental in every single context without contest it should not be taken away. Besides creating an enforcement hellscape there needs to be at least a little respect given to all of us that we can filter ourselves.

It's hard to cite freedom of speech many countries enjoy as justification, I doubt anybody would be happy for them to be cited at all to promote racist speech, yet I feel strongly that we need to respect that right.

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby XDTM » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:35 am #548142

In my opinion casual n-words flying around is at the very best simply unfunny, and never has any positive effect whatsoever.
What it does do is make the place look nice and cozy for actual racists, even if used ironically. And that creates an atmosphere that, while not targeted at anyone specifically, definitely feels hostile to certain groups.
And while a portion of the playerbase is ok with that, in the interest of protecting absolute freedom of speech, i'm more of the opinion that not being able to say words whose only function is literally to display racism/sexism/etc. is not a big loss in the interest of a nicer community.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby cacogen » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:27 am #548151

nah this is part of our decline into tumblr. you shouldn't say it and it makes you look bad if you do but it should be discouraged socially not through lame goon-like policing

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby HommandoSA » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:49 am #548156

Nah, tg doesn't have a slur problem. I wouldn't be against giving timeouts to people "roleplaying" racial supremacists whose vocabulary consists of the average words you'd find in a schizo /pol/ rant, but someone dropping a gamer word every once in a while isn't a huge deal. It's not hard to spot the difference between someone who is shouting slurs in bad faith and someone whose language was just momentarily crude. The current policy of not using targeted slurs to harm a specific individual is fine just how it is.

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby XDTM » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:52 am #548157

There needs to actually be social discouragement for that to work, otherwise it becomes normalized. From the vekter complaint logs there definitely was no discouragement, more like the opposite.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Cobby » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:29 am #548165

deedubya wrote:Considering a non-insignificant portion of admins not only want to ban them and some are already enforcing the rule against prior precedent? Sure. Ban slurs across the board. If that's how you want the community to be run, then just do it already.

there definitely won't be a huge community backlash and exodus like there was on bee, and I definitely don't have any ulterior motives for wanting tg to self-destruct or anything


Admins can enforce it how they like until said precedence is established either through complaint or PD.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby deedubya » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:41 am #548167

Cobby wrote:
deedubya wrote:Considering a non-insignificant portion of admins not only want to ban them and some are already enforcing the rule against prior precedent? Sure. Ban slurs across the board. If that's how you want the community to be run, then just do it already.

there definitely won't be a huge community backlash and exodus like there was on bee, and I definitely don't have any ulterior motives for wanting tg to self-destruct or anything


Admins can enforce it how they like until said precedence is established either through complaint or PD.


Precedent already exists specifically regarding the useage of slurs and other foul language. It's even been affirmed multiple times. It's just being ignored and the perpetrators are not being punished or reprimanted for it.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby teepeepee » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:07 pm #548180

XDTM wrote:There needs to actually be social discouragement for that to work, otherwise it becomes normalized. From the vekter complaint logs there definitely was no discouragement, more like the opposite.

you mean since most people are okay with it we should change most people?

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:38 pm #548186

Just ban people who spam the n word for being underage
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby peoplearestrange » Tue Mar 10, 2020 1:15 pm #548190

There's talk of this IC, but what about OOC?

Racial slurs, particularly the N word, get thrown around OOC a fair bit and I'm wondering whats the mentality about it "being ok"? The usual "This is the road to tumblr" doesn't really seem like a real answer (given how dead tumblr is anyway). Banning of racial slurs seems hardly likely to harm the player base in anyway, if you can't think of another swear to replace it then christ your more unimaginative than I thought possible.

I don't see the need for racial slurs in any form, directed or not they still actively segregate people and are aimed at a person over their race. Why do you NEED this?

EDIT:

deedubya wrote:Precedent already exists specifically regarding the useage of slurs and other foul language. It's even been affirmed multiple times. It's just being ignored and the perpetrators are not being punished or reprimanted for it.

This is a policy thread, where we make suggestions for change. Just because previous headmin groups have approved or said it works a certain way doesn't mean we don't get to make suggestions and make changes as we go. Communities change, people change, rules can change. Lets discuss this without a "BUT THE RULES SAY X RIGHT NOW"
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby deedubya » Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:01 pm #548195

peoplearestrange wrote:
deedubya wrote:Precedent already exists specifically regarding the useage of slurs and other foul language. It's even been affirmed multiple times. It's just being ignored and the perpetrators are not being punished or reprimanted for it.

This is a policy thread, where we make suggestions for change. Just because previous headmin groups have approved or said it works a certain way doesn't mean we don't get to make suggestions and make changes as we go. Communities change, people change, rules can change. Lets discuss this without a "BUT THE RULES SAY X RIGHT NOW"

I'm aware. That was a direct response to the implication that precedent didn't exist and that individual admins were free to interpret it how they please.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:25 pm #548222

Remember that the /tg/ forums are a bubble with maybe several dozen of the same regulars arguing about the same tired issues for all eternity. Actually resolving the issue may require demonstrable consensus from the community so at the very least one way or another you could argue the players desire change or want to keep things the same. I don't think the matter is really that important to justify a couple weeks of polling to ask if you want to ban slurs and you'll probably just get a resounding no from the reddit crowd who love to call lizards "liggers".

Honestly the best advice I can give for enforcement of existing rules is for active admins to talk to each other more to try and line up their enforcement so it's a bit more consistent. If the rules don't reflect current enforcement you'll want to either change the rules as written or get the people handling them to better understand the spirit.

Oh and...
wesoda25 wrote:Just ban people who spam the n word for being underage
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Ghilker » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:40 pm #548224

peoplearestrange wrote:There's talk of this IC, but what about OOC?

Racial slurs, particularly the N word, get thrown around OOC a fair bit and I'm wondering whats the mentality about it "being ok"? The usual "This is the road to tumblr" doesn't really seem like a real answer (given how dead tumblr is anyway). Banning of racial slurs seems hardly likely to harm the player base in anyway, if you can't think of another swear to replace it the ****** your more unimaginative than I thought possible.

I don't see the need for racial slurs in any form, directed or not they still actively segregate people and are aimed at a person over their race. Why do you NEED this?

EDIT:

deedubya wrote:Precedent already exists specifically regarding the useage of slurs and other foul language. It's even been affirmed multiple times. It's just being ignored and the perpetrators are not being punished or reprimanted for it.

This is a policy thread, where we make suggestions for change. Just because previous headmin groups have approved or said it works a certain way doesn't mean we don't get to make suggestions and make changes as we go. Communities change, people change, rules can change. Lets discuss this without a "BUT THE RULES SAY X RIGHT NOW"

Please don't use the Lord's name like that, you are offending me.
Also remove the Space Jesus joke from the starting religion, is offensive

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby XDTM » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:54 pm #548229

Please don't use the Lord's name like that, you are offending me.
Also remove the Space Jesus joke from the starting religion, is offensive

The issue about racism isn't simply it being offensive; considering that this game is made of several servers with several cultures, someone offended by arbitrary things could just leave and find another one.

But pervasive, normalized racism is kind of a turnoff in general to people who would be interested to join, even if not part of the target of the slurs, because it means that the server has a majority of people who think that being a dick to specific groups of people is a funny thing.
If i had to pick between two people to join our servers purely based on whether they are ok with casual slurs or not, i'd bet the one who doesn't is more likely to add value to the game.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby peoplearestrange » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:02 pm #548230

Ghilker wrote:Please don't use the Lord's name like that, you are offending me.
Also remove the Space Jesus joke from the starting religion, is offensive

Religion is a choice, being black isn't.
Nor does using the lords name in vain have the history of slavery, segregation and hate for another person simply because they happen to be born with a certain genetic history.
I understand what you are trying to imply, but they are not comparable.

In the same way you're unlikely to get any reaction for saying "Oh my god!" in public compared with shouting "Ni----!".
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Timberpoes » Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:17 pm #548234

Go back in time 5 and a half years to discussion regarding the old Rule 8.

All the quotes in the spoiler tag below are from people talking about ERP and not racism. I have taken their quotes intentionally out of that context and put them into the context of racism.

The views below are not verbatim the views of these people on racism.

This disclaimer is just so you all know that the below quotes are about ERP and not racism, but I'm taking them intentionally our of context to make a point.

Thread these comments were originally from: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=2103&p=46613

Spoiler:
Stickymayhem wrote:While I don't find this personally offensive, it denotes a level of maturity so fucking low that they deserve anything that's coming to them.

If one-liners like this get spouted it's purely for shock value. Acting shocked when you get the reaction you were looking for is plain stupid.

If it's actual <racism> (Ed.) then it's disrespectful and makes people uncomfortable so they should be permabanned anyway.

Either way people deserve to eat bans for this behaviour and there is no reason to be more lenient to facilitate childish jokes, intentionally making people uncomfortable or actual <racism> (Ed.).


QuartzCrystal wrote:I like this being a perma because it discourages people from toe-ing the line, and honestly this is one of the worst things you can toe the line with.

It's also probably the easiest rule to follow, it's so straight up and clear that anyone who breaks it is either a straight up shitler or too dumb to play on our servers.

Vekter wrote:To clarify, I never meant not banning for it. It should always be a permaban, but should we show leniency depending on how bad the incident is? If they're willing to come and appeal, the infraction is something stupid, and they're an active member of the community, I say permaban them until they appeal, then unban, possibly on probation.

KingLouisXIV wrote:<snipped content> ... but as Quartz said, the type of people who break this rule are either line-toeing shitters, or genuinely too dumb to comprehend why the rule is in place.

I've found that both types of people either don't tend to apologize genuinely or apologize at all, and their appeals are usually along the lines of "I DID NOTHING WRONG MODS!!!!"


The point I'm trying to make is this - All the same arguments that go towards treating ERP harsher can also be used for treating racism harsher.

If you're also going to argue freedom of speech, where does ERP cross the line that racism doesn't?

Personally? Don't give a shit. I'm from the UK. The word isn't as loaded here. We have a few hundred other nasty slurs for all the ethnicities this xenophobic shitheap of an island hates. But you should all have a little perspective, every argument you can make for banning casual ERP can be made for banning casual racism. If we protect people from having to experience ERP, what is the argument for NOT protecting people from experiencing racism?

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby CDranzer » Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:12 pm #548244

I do not like the precedent it would set
I have no reason to believe that language policing would stop with a handful of slurs
I'm not concerned about gamer words, I'm concerned about being banned for admin disrespect 2 years down the line
The slippery slope is real

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby peoplearestrange » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:43 pm #548260

CDranzer wrote:I do not like the precedent it would set
I have no reason to believe that language policing would stop with a handful of slurs
I'm not concerned about gamer words, I'm concerned about being banned for admin disrespect 2 years down the line
The slippery slope is real


The slippery slope is a tired argument. Mostly because communities and just about everything is in flux, a constant change and a state of evolution. All the slippery slope argument serves to protect is the idea that everything is fine and nothing needs to change ever, which is both provably false and will inevitably lead to change anyway.

Why try to deal with every possible future outcome for some policy rather than deal with the things that are in sight now. This change is over THIS thing, not what precedent it might set with the beauty of hindsight.

Its the same argument when people say "X is a gateway to Y", its not useful when its based on conjecture or an imagined future
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WeeYakk wrote:If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

Operative wrote:Vote PAS for headmin! Get cucked and feel good getting cucked.

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This is my moment, what are you doing?!

Anonmare wrote:Oranges gestures at the thread, it shudders and begins to move!

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callanrockslol wrote:all you have to do is ban shitters until the playbase improves/ceases to exist, whichever comes first.

IM TRYING

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Kor wrote:
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Are you having a stroke

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:33 pm #548283

Timberpoes wrote:

You're right, it's time to add reverse semination cock-vore. Literally all sexual acts are identical including rape and pedophilia AND it's also identical to saying nigger. You're absolutely correct, so we should add a mechanic that lets you unconsentually suck people into your cockhole and covert them into semen in your scrotum while they scream and plead for help. Thank you for your eye-opening equivalency. I'll go make the PR. I mean, clearly it's either this or we ban saying nigger.

Edit: Here you go, brave defender of true anti-censorship and man-maker of not-straw: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/49869
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Denton » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:00 pm #548290

Timberpoes wrote:I'm from the UK.

first of all, my condolences

If you're also going to argue freedom of speech, where does ERP cross the line that racism doesn't?

Are you implying that calling Kat Green gamer words and AFKing so you can text fuck other 40 year old sweaty dudes is the same thing?
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:01 pm #548291

While I don't find this personally offensive, it denotes a level of maturity so fucking low that they deserve anything that's coming to them.

If one-liners like this get spouted it's purely for shock value. Acting shocked when you get the reaction you were looking for is plain stupid.

If it's actual racism then it's disrespectful and makes people uncomfortable so they should be permabanned anyway.

Either way people deserve to eat bans for this behaviour and there is no reason to be more lenient to facilitate childish jokes, intentionally making people uncomfortable or actual racism
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:04 pm #548293

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Timberpoes wrote:

You're right, it's time to add reverse semination cock-vore. Literally all sexual acts are identical including rape and pedophilia AND it's also identical to saying nigger. You're absolutely correct, so we should add a mechanic that lets you unconsentually suck people into your cockhole and covert them into semen in your scrotum while they scream and plead for help. Thank you for your eye-opening equivalency. I'll go make the PR. I mean, clearly it's either this or we ban saying nigger.

Edit: Here you go, brave defender of true anti-censorship and man-maker of not-straw: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/49869


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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby HommandoSA » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:38 pm #548317

peoplearestrange wrote:
CDranzer wrote:I do not like the precedent it would set
I have no reason to believe that language policing would stop with a handful of slurs
I'm not concerned about gamer words, I'm concerned about being banned for admin disrespect 2 years down the line
The slippery slope is real


Mostly because communities and just about everything is in flux, a constant change and a state of evolution.


Using policy to force out people who use words you don't like is less like evolution and more like eugenics. That's right, banning the n-word is gamer eugenics.

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Timberpoes » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:40 pm #548320

Denton wrote:
Timberpoes wrote:If you're also going to argue freedom of speech, where does ERP cross the line that racism doesn't?

Are you implying that calling Kat Green gamer words and AFKing so you can text fuck other 40 year old sweaty dudes is the same thing?


I guess I am implying calling Kat Green a nigger is offensive and crass and is probably equal to attempting simulated gay e-sex, yes. I'm going to assume you were trying to make some sort of rape equivalence, but you can't rape someone with words. It may be shitty and uncomfortable to be on the receiving end, but the same can be said about absolutely open, unashamed and unabashed racism. It's just feels that for whatever reason sex is somehow taboo while racism is fully normalised and intolerence of racism is treated with intolerance of intolerance of racism, as we saw in Vekter's recent experience with it.

I'd consider taking a person and targetting them with racial slurs about as equal as taking a person and trying to do the e-sex them. However, I'd also consider spitting out racial slurs with no context or to be edgy more offensive than spitting out sexual innuendos or asking daddy to ride your sherbert fountain with no context or to be edgy. I wouldn't consider the latter particularly tasteful, but I'd consider it significantly more tasteful than Urist McWhitesupremacist spouting his childish and hateful rhetoric.

Tolerating such racism openly leaves a sour feeling, at least to me, despite the fact it doesn't affect me in any way. It just seems hypocritical that people will in one breath defend racism because censorship is bad but in the other decry anything erotic because sex is taboo. When I read arguments that imply that to me, I feel like I've entered the fucking twilight zone.

PKPenguin321 wrote:<Snip stream of consciousness text dump>


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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Qustinnus » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:41 pm #548321

peoplearestrange wrote:
CDranzer wrote:I do not like the precedent it would set
I have no reason to believe that language policing would stop with a handful of slurs
I'm not concerned about gamer words, I'm concerned about being banned for admin disrespect 2 years down the line
The slippery slope is real


The slippery slope is a tired argument. Mostly because communities and just about everything is in flux, a constant change and a state of evolution. All the slippery slope argument serves to protect is the idea that everything is fine and nothing needs to change ever, which is both provably false and will inevitably lead to change anyway.

Why try to deal with every possible future outcome for some policy rather than deal with the things that are in sight now. This change is over THIS thing, not what precedent it might set with the beauty of hindsight.

Its the same argument when people say "X is a gateway to Y", its not useful when its based on conjecture or an imagined future


"i dislike the argument because I know I'd do exactly what this person said"

ok pas

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Qustinnus » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:42 pm #548322

Timberpoes wrote:
Denton wrote:
Timberpoes wrote:If you're also going to argue freedom of speech, where does ERP cross the line that racism doesn't?

Are you implying that calling Kat Green gamer words and AFKing so you can text fuck other 40 year old sweaty dudes is the same thing?


I guess I am implying calling Kat Green a nigger is offensive and crass and is probably equal to attempting simulated gay e-sex, yes. I'm going to assume you were trying to make some sort of rape equivalence, but you can't rape someone with words. It may be shitty and uncomfortable to be on the receiving end, but the same can be said about absolutely open, unashamed and unabashed racism. It's just feels that for whatever reason sex is somehow taboo while racism is fully normalised and intolerence of racism is treated with intolerance of intolerance of racism, as we saw in Vekter's recent experience with it.

I'd consider taking a person and targetting them with racial slurs about as equal as taking a person and trying to do the e-sex them. However, I'd also consider spitting out racial slurs with no context or to be edgy more offensive than spitting out sexual innuendos or asking daddy to ride your sherbert fountain with no context or to be edgy. I wouldn't consider the latter particularly tasteful, but I'd consider it significantly more tasteful than Urist McWhitesupremacist spouting his childish and hateful rhetoric.

Tolerating such racism openly leaves a sour feeling, at least to me, despite the fact it doesn't affect me in any way. It just seems hypocritical that people will in one breath defend racism because censorship is bad but in the other decry anything erotic because sex is taboo. When I read arguments that imply that to me, I feel like I've entered the fucking twilight zone.

PKPenguin321 wrote:<Snip stream of consciousness text dump>


If you want to enter civil discourse, I'll still be around.


try goon station

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Cobby » Tue Mar 10, 2020 8:45 pm #548324

deedubya wrote:Precedent already exists specifically regarding the useage of slurs and other foul language. It's even been affirmed multiple times. It's just being ignored and the perpetrators are not being punished or reprimanted for it.


oh poop ur right, not that I care either way ;)

Anyways, It's really interesting to take the "this is done explicitly to mess with other people" stance when we permit things like greytiding and that one catgirl who open the shower to nya and be annoying.

Let's not even consider our "selling point" for the server is letting antags do whatever they want, even forcing everyone to spectator because haha i won rng :D.

If you're scared of attracting the wrong people to play the game, It's probably not because you happen to permit saying fa**ot or ni**er.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:11 pm #548342

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Timberpoes wrote:

You're right, it's time to add reverse semination cock-vore. Literally all sexual acts are identical including rape and pedophilia AND it's also identical to saying nigger. You're absolutely correct, so we should add a mechanic that lets you unconsentually suck people into your cockhole and covert them into semen in your scrotum while they scream and plead for help. Thank you for your eye-opening equivalency. I'll go make the PR. I mean, clearly it's either this or we ban saying nigger.

Edit: Here you go, brave defender of true anti-censorship and man-maker of not-straw: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/49869

holy fucking shit lmao

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Ty the Smonk » Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:20 pm #548344

I like that we can literally have someone torture someone to death in graphic detail but if you say nigger or some shit people get all riled up, thank you /tg/station very cool

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby peoplearestrange » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:00 am #548391

Ty the Smonk wrote:I like that we can literally have someone torture someone to death in graphic detail but if you say nigger or some shit people get all riled up, thank you /tg/station very cool

I always figured torture fits under rule 8 (specifically the "creepy stuff is not allowed.")

Also allowing one bad thing doesn't mean that allowing another bad thing is a-ok.


Qustinnus wrote:"i dislike the argument because I know I'd do exactly what this person said"
ok pas

Im not entirely sure what you mean. I just believe the "Slippery" slope card being played isn't really a card with any actual merit.

Also rather than attacking me why not try talking about the policy being talked about further than "Go play someplace else"?
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Spoiler:
oranges wrote:singulo.io is the center point of rational and calm debate, where much of tg's issues are worked out in a fun and family friendly environment

miggles wrote:it must have been quite the accomplishment, killing a dead butterfly

WeeYakk wrote:If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

Operative wrote:Vote PAS for headmin! Get cucked and feel good getting cucked.

TheNightingale wrote:I want to get off Mr. Scones's Wild Ride...

NikNakFlak wrote:Excuse you, I was doing intentional bug testing for the well being of the server. I do not make mistakes.

Fragnostic wrote:stop cucking the first shitshow ever that revolved around me.
This is my moment, what are you doing?!

Anonmare wrote:Oranges gestures at the thread, it shudders and begins to move!

Saegrimr wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:all you have to do is ban shitters until the playbase improves/ceases to exist, whichever comes first.

IM TRYING

Screemonster wrote:hellmoo is the mud for grown adults who main reaper in overwatch

Kor wrote:
confused rock wrote:...its like if we made fire extinguishers spawn in emergency boxes and have them heal you when you put out fires rather than them being in wall storages...


Are you having a stroke

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby XDTM » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:09 am #548395

Ty the Smonk wrote:I like that we can literally have someone torture someone to death in graphic detail but if you say nigger or some shit people get all riled up, thank you /tg/station very cool


Someone who makes a racist character tends to hold similar views OOC.

And honestly even torture roleplayed "in graphic detail" is not usualy welcomed much here either, since the torturer appears to be getting off on it.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Cobby » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:22 am #548413

says who?

The idea we have to conflate IC racism to mean you're also OOC racist is absurd...

Let's assume we're not talking about someone who's entire character is based solely around being racist (IE Tyrone McWatermelon).
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby peoplearestrange » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:34 am #548415

Cobby wrote:says who?

The idea we have to conflate IC racism to mean you're also OOC racist is absurd...

Let's assume we're not talking about someone who's entire character is based solely around being racist (IE Tyrone McWatermelon).


Yeah I actually agree with that in part. Roleplay can mean you play something other than yourself, however a lot of people definitely have trouble playing anything but themselves.

I still think the actual issue isn't an IC issue but more of an OOC one. People spamming single words IC, whether it be a slur or not probably don't really care much for any kind of meaningful interaction, lrp or mrp.
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Spoiler:
oranges wrote:singulo.io is the center point of rational and calm debate, where much of tg's issues are worked out in a fun and family friendly environment

miggles wrote:it must have been quite the accomplishment, killing a dead butterfly

WeeYakk wrote:If you take a step back from everything watching the community argue janitor related changes is one of the most surreal and hilarious things about this game. Four pages of discussing the merits of there being too much or too little dirt in a video game.

Operative wrote:Vote PAS for headmin! Get cucked and feel good getting cucked.

TheNightingale wrote:I want to get off Mr. Scones's Wild Ride...

NikNakFlak wrote:Excuse you, I was doing intentional bug testing for the well being of the server. I do not make mistakes.

Fragnostic wrote:stop cucking the first shitshow ever that revolved around me.
This is my moment, what are you doing?!

Anonmare wrote:Oranges gestures at the thread, it shudders and begins to move!

Saegrimr wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:all you have to do is ban shitters until the playbase improves/ceases to exist, whichever comes first.

IM TRYING

Screemonster wrote:hellmoo is the mud for grown adults who main reaper in overwatch

Kor wrote:
confused rock wrote:...its like if we made fire extinguishers spawn in emergency boxes and have them heal you when you put out fires rather than them being in wall storages...


Are you having a stroke

bandit wrote:you are now manually GLORFing

MrStonedOne wrote:The best part about the election is when I announce my pick because I'm just as surprised as everybody else.

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PKPenguin321
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:14 am #548433

Timberpoes wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:You're right, it's time to add reverse semination cock-vore. Literally all sexual acts are identical including rape and pedophilia AND it's also identical to saying nigger. You're absolutely correct, so we should add a mechanic that lets you unconsentually suck people into your cockhole and covert them into semen in your scrotum while they scream and plead for help. Thank you for your eye-opening equivalency. I'll go make the PR. I mean, clearly it's either this or we ban saying nigger.

Edit: Here you go, brave defender of true anti-censorship and man-maker of not-straw: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/49869


If you want to enter civil discourse, I'll still be around.

But I am! I'm agreeing with you, even! You said that sexual acts of any variant, which we currently ban, are unequivocally identical to saying the n word, and I think so too! I think someone saying "nigger," even in the most clinical way, is just as bad as a rapist. If we ban people for rape, why not the n word? That's what you said, right? I agree!
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CDranzer
 
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby CDranzer » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:10 am #548443

I also question the legitimacy of the claimed intent of these changes.
I don't believe there's a long line of minorities clamoring about hurt words, I don't believe the language drives away a significant portion of interested parties, I don't believe the quality of interactions are significantly lessened by the presence of these things, and I don't believe the quality of interactions would improve as a result of increased restrictions.
I think most of the justifications for such a policy are covers for what is ostensibly an attempt at political change.

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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Kryson » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:46 am #548461

[quote="Atlanta-Ned"]Specifically the n-word.
It should be banned because it offers little value to the roleplaying experience here. Running around screaming the n-word is not a remotely realistic gimmick under our current rules (which disallow playing characters that are insane (see item 1 in link)). /quote]

That is not what the rule 1 precedent says at all, which makes me think you just want to stir shit.

The n-word is not uniquely offensive and well adjusted adults, including African-Americans can handle reading a naughty word.

What is offensive is entirely culture dependant, I don't see why this singular word should get you in trouble.

Might as well disable nuke ops in config for being deeply offensive to the Japanese.

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XDTM
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby XDTM » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:45 am #548467

peoplearestrange wrote:
Cobby wrote:says who?

The idea we have to conflate IC racism to mean you're also OOC racist is absurd...

Let's assume we're not talking about someone who's entire character is based solely around being racist (IE Tyrone McWatermelon).


Yeah I actually agree with that in part. Roleplay can mean you play something other than yourself, however a lot of people definitely have trouble playing anything but themselves.

I still think the actual issue isn't an IC issue but more of an OOC one. People spamming single words IC, whether it be a slur or not probably don't really care much for any kind of meaningful interaction, lrp or mrp.


It's true that someone could legitimately be roleplaying someone racist without reflecting their own views, but i'm of the firm belief that someone spouting n-words IC, especially when it's clear it's simply for the shock value, is likely either doing it out of either immaturity or veiled racism.
Even then, i can agree with not policing IC that strictly, since there is the genuine chance that it's not the case.

However, when it spills over to OOC there's no "i'm roleplaying a racist" excuse, and all the arguments about slurs being nothing but a detriment apply in full. The only one who gains from these is the attention-seekers who like the reactions and the middle-schoolers who think bad word funny.
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Re: We Should Ban Epic Gamer Words

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:32 am #548488

Yeah
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