[Iain0] Supergrog - perm ban seems a bit harsh :(

[supergrog]

BYOND account: Supergrog
Character name: Jimmy Jimmy
Ban type: Server
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: Non antag welderbombed hopline as suicide and killed someone else. Disconnected during ahelp.
Time ban was placed: 2022-03-02 20:45:57
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 179314
Your side of the story: Roundstart I decided to bring a fuel tank to sec and set it off near the warden, resulting in both our deaths. I waited at least ten minutes in dchat without receiving any ahelps and since the warden was being revived and appeared to have accepted my apology i decided to leave.
Why you think you should be unbanned: It was not my intention to murder the warden, they were around 3 tiles away from the tank and behind an airlock, I have no idea how the tank managed to kill me and the warden because even if you're standing right next to the tank it wouldn't kill you, maybe blow off a couple limbs and put you into crit max. Either fuel tanks had been buffed and i didn't know about it or there was a glitch.

I really felt awful about killing the warden for no reason that early into the round, I was bored and i just wanted to explode something. My intention was to just piss off sec not to murder anyone, I have no idea how they ended up dead when they were that far away.

Also the ban reason states i welderbombed hopline, when i welderbombed the brig corridor.

[supergrog]

oof i fucked up the title i didnt put my username. Do i gotta repost?

[supergrog]

Nevermind you can edit

[NecromancerAnne]

Most likely this is occurring due to unattended consequences of a testmerged PR. The issue for this is detailed here as well as both related issues and the testmerge that is the culprit: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/issues/65273

In addition, typically when someone disconnects before being addressed by admins, and the admin in question believes something had occurred that needs to be addressed to the player, a permaban is placed in order to continue the ticket process. It might seem harsh, but it's the only way to get players to come to the forums to continue the ticket, and the resulting discussion from there may not necessarily result in a true permaban (see: probably never).

So don't worry too much, just wait until Iain0 sees the appeal.

[Timberpoes]

We no longer permaban players to bring them to the forums and haven't for as long as I've been an admin.

Players who aren't available for or don't respond to tickets are treated as if they had no defense for their actions. They are dealt with on that basis and invited to the forums to give their side of the story if they feel the note or ban was inaccurate or unjust.

However, this player's note history is exceptionally bad which may have been why they were permabanned.

For reference, the player disconnected about a minute after they were bwoinked.

Admin link:
https://atlantaned.space/tgdb/ticket/179314/2

Appellant link:
https://atlantaned.space/banbus/mytickets/179314/2

Spoiler:

From Ticket #2 during round 179314 on Terry
Ticket opened at 2022-03-02 20:34:10 by iain0
Log:
20:34:10: Ticket Opened by-iain0: Alright, well, not sure there's much of a discussion to have here, is there any good reason for blowing up a welding tank?
20:35:21: Client disconnected
20:49:57: Iain0/(Bob Stange) has created a permanent server ban for Supergrog.
20:49:58: Resolved by Iain0
---- No futher messages ----
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.0.14.0

[iain0]

Hi there, thanks for the appeal, did rather intend for you to come here as I felt a definate need to speak to you regarding this incident.

I acknowledge the error re HOP line vs brig, I corrected one record but apparently not all of them. It doesn't make it better given you have a history with non antag vs security incidents.

At the time, having been made aware of the incident, I did a quick review of the logs and then saw you talking a little in dead chat essentially confessing while I pulled up your record and messaged you, starting to skim through it while waiting for you to respond ; instead 70 seconds later you disconnected. It's fair to say you have a fairly extensive record, and while I won't rake through too many specific details, you most recently received a one week ban for "excessive tiding" and self-antagging behaviour towards sec, and quite a lengthy explanation of that, so going off how escalated that ban is, unauthorised killing of a security player seems like it should be heavily escalated past the standards. This combined with the inability to talk to you and get your perspective is what lead me down this particular path.

I will say in your defence that the above mentioned bug about explosions being overpowered was probably in effect and this has some very staggering and lethal outcomes to explosions in unexpected situations (have been on the receiving end of this myself). I wasn't aware of the bug at the time and this certainly lends its self towards it being possibly unintended on your part with respect to its lethal conclusion.

It still bothers me however that someone with such a history, given how warned you were in your previous infraction about your non antag behaviour towards security, would decide to commit suicide by welderbombing brig - what you SHOULD be doing right now is keeping a low profile, letting your notes age gracefully such that the next time something dubious happens admins will look back on a much cleaner record. Instead you do something as silly as welderbombing the brig to kill yourself ; it doesn't seem there's any possibility of a good explanation for this, you picked something that at the best of times is on the edge behaviour for a non antag that served (ideally) no purpose. Why not use one of the hundreds of less explosive ways of killing yourself. And not around sec.

So, really, the questions I have for you are as follows:
1) Hardest one to answer ; why did you do this at all? Intended or unintended consequences aside, why start down this path?
2) Given you have a history and are specifically warned against griefing security as a non antag in your previously heavily escalated ban, will giving you ANOTHER chance really achieve anything or change your ways going forward?
3) Assuming you can convince me of (2), and given your history, and on a scale relative to your mentioned previous ban (which threatens longer bans), what do you think would be a fair punishment here?

Thanks for your time

[supergrog]

Ok firstly id like to apologise about leaving after the ahelp. I think i must have closed the tab when i got it.

1: I did it because I enjoy antagonising sec and evading arrest, in this instance i probably went too far with welderbombing and i understand that this sort of behaviour is discouraged. However I really just cant help myself, I wouldnt blame you if you permabanned me.

2: Nah ill probs go right back too it, Ive got exams and shit coming up so this is probs for the better.

3: Ill re appeal whenever after ive done these exams and dont got much else on my plate so probs in the summer. Id like to think ill be a changed man then but idk, I still love greytiding and being a nuisance and i doubt that will change, but im hoping on you guys relaxing the rules on lrp anyway. If things get worse by the summer and old rule 3s back i wont bother appealing. So yeah just do what you must ig i aint expecting an unban anytime soon.

[SkeletalElite]

I believe logging doesn't show disconnects until you time out a little bit after closing the game, which means the player may not have actually received the bwoink

[iain0]

I'd like to thank the various admins, headmins and the coder for the patch that changed explosives for coming forward about the explosion thing, nice to see so many overseeing things and adding useful bits

I'll disregard the actual death of the warden as a result of the above.

Your ongoing self-antagonism with security is certainly an issue here, and you seem unlikely to be changing your tune here any time soon ; ultimately even on LRP there's some standard of role play too and going to pick fights against security all the time isn't really appropriate (and security should be dealing with antagonists, having to deal with rowdy crew often just spirals the round into factional warfare which doesn't work very well for many involved).


Taking all your responses into consideration, I think I'll leave the permaban in place for now, but modify the standard "12 months until you can appeal" and say that after you're done with your exams in summer, if you feel like you can return and play without the antagonism towards security, then come back and appeal again and I'll probably add a "probation" type note and unban you. And good luck with the exams.